2022 Point Chart release date?

[Judique]

Sorry but absolutely does. Spreading out demand means you can go when you want more likely.

Plenty of members would travel in summer as an example if it were cheaper than December.



Because points haven't changed. As they change and people lose 1-2 nights they will then look at possibly moving to another time of year and if it makes sense.

I gave my experience and my opinion. It's just as valid as yours.

Just because you use words like 'absolutely does' and 'people will look at possibly moving' doesn't mean that it will happen.

Humans are creatures of habit and they will continue to do what they want to do, especially some of us folk who have stuck around for 20 plus years and who intend to keep their memberships until one of us expire. I've bought and added on 4 times to make DVC what I want it to be for me.

'I' am not suddenly going to develop a desire to walk up Main Street in July and I'm certain there are many as I said in the first wave of buyers who are going to continue to book the resorts they chose back starting in 1992 in late October, November and in early December for the Xmas season, low points or increased points. They'll take the points hit rather than give up what they want to do. Most of them are not going to switch to the summer season.

 

[sethschroeder]

I gave my experience and my opinion. It's just as valid as yours.

It is written in to the rules:
"A Home Resort Vacation Points Chart lists the number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to make a reservation for one of the various Vacation Homes at a given DVC Resort for a given Use Day. The determination of the required number of Home Resort Vacation Points is based on the size of the Vacation Home and expected seasonal demand for Vacation Homes at that DVC Resort. Home Resort Vacation Points Charts for the various DVC Resorts will be updated from time to time."

So by not updating the point charts based on demand is actually failing membership.

Just because you use words like 'absolutely does' and 'people will look at possibly moving' doesn't mean that it will happen.

Except as its been stated before if you make May to August 1 point a night it would book at 11 months. That is extreme but its the truth that there is a balance to the system somewhere. So no it will happen that people will start moving vacations at a certain point.

'I' am not suddenly going to develop a desire to walk up Main Street in July

"I" =/= membership as a whole. You can keep going when you normally go and should have a similar experience booking your specific room you desire at your home resort as any other time of the year.

 

[Judique]

It is written in to the rules:
"A Home Resort Vacation Points Chart lists the number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to make a reservation for one of the various Vacation Homes at a given DVC Resort for a given Use Day. The determination of the required number of Home Resort Vacation Points is based on the size of the Vacation Home and expected seasonal demand for Vacation Homes at that DVC Resort. Home Resort Vacation Points Charts for the various DVC Resorts will be updated from time to time."

So by not updating the point charts based on demand is actually failing membership.



Except as its been stated before if you make May to August 1 point a night it would book at 11 months. That is extreme but its the truth that there is a balance to the system somewhere. So no it will happen that people will start moving vacations at a certain point.



"I" =/= membership as a whole. You can keep going when you normally go and should have a similar experience booking your specific room you desire at your home resort as any other time of the year.

You don't have to quote the rules to me. I received my copy when I purchased.

And, your absolutes and extremes miss my point. By a mile or so.

 

[sethschroeder]

You don't have to quote the rules to me. I received my copy when I purchased.

And, your absolutes and extremes miss my point. By a mile or so.

Not really you personally want your stays to remain cheaper that's fine you can want that.

Thing is the rules were written and specifically stated they would adjust the point charts. No different than your HOA picking and choosing which rules they want to enforce or not.

Overall easier to book rooms 12 months a year and spread out demand so rooms are not going to breakage is a positive for membership as a whole to get maximum benefit from their investment. Everything you stated was a personal reason not an overall membership view.

You personally not going in summer is not a mirror of everyone going in the fall/winter right now if point costs were less. You have a specific period you go after 10-20 years and not changing is you not membership as a whole as well.

 

[Novatrix]

'I' am not suddenly going to develop a desire to walk up Main Street in July and I'm certain there are many as I said in the first wave of buyers who are going to continue to book the resorts they chose back starting in 1992 in late October, November and in early December for the Xmas season, low points or increased points. They'll take the points hit rather than give up what they want to do. Most of them are not going to switch to the summer season.

Speaking as someone who does book with 1992 Disney Vacation Club points (now referred to as OKW), you better believe I'd change my booking patterns to summer if it was only 1pt a night.

I'd also need to purchase a trailer, as I would be moving into a near hospitality house studio June through August. Heck, I might even splurge and book the 1 bedroom for that time frame at 2 points a night.

Now to find out if they'll honor those length of stay refillable mugs...

 

[Beachmom0317]

We usually go in the fall with cheap points...mid November before Thanksgiving or early December. I’m thinking of postponing our normal November trip in 2021 to Spring 2022 in hopes of more normalcy by then. But eek I’m nervous about these spring points! Going to be sticker shock LOL thankfully we can avoid Easter but still

 

[AvidDisReader]

Not really you personally want your stays to remain cheaper that's fine you can want that.

Thing is the rules were written and specifically stated they would adjust the point charts. No different than your HOA picking and choosing which rules they want to enforce or not.

Overall easier to book rooms 12 months a year and spread out demand so rooms are not going to breakage is a positive for membership as a whole to get maximum benefit from their investment. Everything you stated was a personal reason not an overall membership view.

You personally not going in summer is not a mirror of everyone going in the fall/winter right now if point costs were less. You have a specific period you go after 10-20 years and not changing is you not membership as a whole as well.

My biggest problem with adjusting the point charts is I do not trust DVC management for one second. After we all became aware of the lock off premium scam, do you really trust DVC management to reallocate fairly and in the best interest of the members? (ok, I admit we are by the Magic Kingdom with all the Pixie Dust in the air-LOL).

 

[Phatscott25]

I agree that the proposed 2020 lock off scam was terrible. But I think the 2021 point charts appropriately reflected demand patterns.

 

[Judique]

Speaking as someone who does book with 1992 Disney Vacation Club points (now referred to as OKW), you better believe I'd change my booking patterns to summer if it was only 1pt a night.

I'd also need to purchase a trailer, as I would be moving into a near hospitality house studio June through August. Heck, I might even splurge and book the 1 bedroom for that time frame at 2 points a night.

Now to find out if they'll honor those length of stay refillable mugs...

Not me! There are usually loads of summer bargains out there to encourage people to fill up the parks among the regular resorts. I did multiple summer trips in the past so I can understand that it's the time convenient for some families to go, and that price can influence many trips.

With DVC, I started out with the highest cost seasons, Xmas and Easter, and did those trips for years, so cost is probably more insignificant for me. As my family aged out of the school system, it became easier to plan off season trips and I like them.

Whether I go to the parks or stay at a DVC resort I will continue to do late fall and winter trips. If DVC points were to somehow price me out (which probably won't happen for me as I've already paid as high as they will probably go) based on the fact that most of my points are at BWV, and there are a finite amount of points for DVC management to play with there.

Seems to me that Disney races and festivals have a lot to do with influencing the bookings. Fall became most popular because of Food and Wine and Early December has always been popular because of lower points and Xmas Decor without the enormous Xmas crowds. Xmas and New Years already attract high booking rates, because - well, it's Xmas!

Some on here seem to forget that whatever goes up 20% at a resort, has to have a corresponding 20% drop at the same resort to maintain the balance of the 'set' number of points sold at said resort.

Almost all the Disney DVC resorts have points costs as high or higher than BWV, so when I've stayed at other resorts such as Grand Floridian, I've paid more, significantly more points than at BWV. But, I wanted to stay there, so that's what I paid.

I think if DVC wants to spread more usage into the summer seasons, they might want to encourage Disney to create a draw for that season, such as F&W has caused for fall. Summer seems to be the only season without a Festival or Race. Maybe they better get out their thinking caps, and come up with a way to turn summer into a crowded season. Maybe start with some more shade, cooling stations and water fountains....

 

[Judique]

I agree that the proposed 2020 lock off scam was terrible. But I think the 2021 point charts appropriately reflected demand patterns.

Despite what has been said, I'm not complaining about the fall increases. If they go up, something else has to come down at the resort in question. And as @AvidDisReader said, I don't trust the powers that be to know their job and to proceed correctly per the contract. I'm grateful to people such as @zavandor and @drusba (and many others) who have been watchdogs for the good of the membership. They've monitored and spoken up and instituted change. Also grateful to this board for the platform which helps our fellow members stay as informed as they are.

 

[sethschroeder]

After we all became aware of the lock off premium scam, do you really trust DVC management to reallocate fairly and in the best interest of the members?

Yes

1. It was caught and stopped
2. We can easily run the numbers to make sure point totals add up correctly
3. Them doing one thing incorrect (legally or illegally) does not mean you then never make another change
4. I am not sure Disney thought what they did was wrong originally

It's written in to the contract and I expect Disney to uphold the contract and follow the rules. If it's proven they are not then we make it known they are not correctly changing the point charts.

 

[Phatscott25]

Despite what has been said, I'm not complaining about the fall increases. If they go up, something else has to come down at the resort in question. And as @AvidDisReader said, I don't trust the powers that be to know their job and to proceed correctly per the contract. I'm grateful to people such as @zavandor and @drusba (and many others) who have been watchdogs for the good of the membership. They've monitored and spoken up and instituted change. Also grateful to this board for the platform which helps our fellow members stay as informed as they are.

My reply wasn't in response to you, it was in response to this one:

My biggest problem with adjusting the point charts is I do not trust DVC management for one second. After we all became aware of the lock off premium scam, do you really trust DVC management to reallocate fairly and in the best interest of the members? (ok, I admit we are by the Magic Kingdom with all the Pixie Dust in the air-LOL).

I agree with @sethschroeder and agree (or at least want to agree) that we can trust DVC management to do what's right and that the 2020 fiasco (which was changed - thankfully) was not ill-intent, just an error. If I ever personally got to a point where I didn't trust DVC management I would sell. Why would anyone keep something if they don't trust it?

 

[havoc315]

My biggest problem with adjusting the point charts is I do not trust DVC management for one second. After we all became aware of the lock off premium scam, do you really trust DVC management to reallocate fairly and in the best interest of the members? (ok, I admit we are by the Magic Kingdom with all the Pixie Dust in the air-LOL).

They can't make a change without the approval of the condo association.
Changing point charts does not really affect Disney's profit in any meaningful way. The only reason to do it is to better reflect supply and demand.
Disney can NOT change the total number of points in a resort in a given year. They can only move them around. For example, they can make a high demand time for DVC like October a bit higher points, but then they would have to go make another season a bit cheaper.
There is apparently debate as to whether they can change the points based on room type. I actually wish they would -- make studios a bit more expensive, make 1 bedrooms a bit cheaper, to even out the supply and demand a bit more.
And the lock-off premium wasn't really a "scam," it's an artifact of what I believe is a poorly designed difference in pricing between the unit types. The best way to correct this "scam," would be to increase the points for studios and 2-bedrooms, while decreasing the points for a 1 bedroom. So that the price of a 1 bedroom + studio ='s 2 bedroom.

 

[Sandisw]

Let’s all just remember that the point charts were built with size of room in mind and that larger the room was, the more points it would be.

The charts were also built with 2 bedroom unit and the POS discussing the lock off premium being allowed.

Initially things were built to mimic park demand because that is a.l they had,,.now, there is DVC supply and demand.

The adjustments being made are done to even out best they can. It would be great to see 1 bedrooms not be twice as much, But, I’d love to see those hold 5 and studios only hold 4..but that is not what DVD decided when they lowered minimums to allow more buyers who could stay studios,

At this point, I think we will see more adjustments for fall given the high demand at 11 months. But, in the end, winners and losers will be there, Personally, all the changes so far have made me a winner, But, being retired now, the increase in fall will negate the savings I got in the summer. Of course, my kids and their families will be going then so it will work out.

Whatever they do, they believe it is in the best interest of the membership as a whole...they do have dats we do not..and we have to live with it because, unfortunately, we have no real power to give input as long as it can be deemed legal...and if not, people willing to spend a lot of money to challenge it.

 

[havoc315]

Just because I feel like it, I decided to do some value/point comparisons. I'm planning a trip to Riviera in mid August 2021, so I decided to use 8/14-8/21 as this example. I checked what was available as cash booking. Obviously, it's rack rate, no discount. But when discounts come out, likely same for all rooms.
So here are the prices, the necessary points, and the value per point
Preferred Studio: $5262, 168 points, $31.32 per point
1 BR - preferred -- $8134, 364 points -- $22.34 per point
2 BR - standard - $9698, 378 points -- $25.65 per point
2 BR preferred -- $11,468, 455 points -- $25.20 per point.

When you rent points, rental agencies charge a standard fee per point -- doesn't matter whether you plan to use the point for a studio versus a 2-bedroom. When you purchase 1-time add-on points from Disney, it's a set price.
So I do wish the point chart did a better job of valuing the points consistently. Heck, if Disney does a 20-30%+ discount, then it would be cheaper to book with cash as opposed to renting points, for the 1 BR and maybe even the 2 BR units.

I recognize there is a dispute as to whether it's even allowed, but I would love to see the chart adjusted to give more consistent value over room type and seasons.
For example, if there was an effort to have the points worth roughly $25 per point... Then the week rates would be:
210 points for a week in preferred studio. 325 points for 1 BR preferred. 388 points for a 2 BR standard. And 458 points for 2 BR preferred.

The big difference would be the space between Studio and 1 BR preferred -- instead of a 196 point difference, it would only be a 115 point difference. Studio would remain much "cheaper" than a 1 bedroom, but it would even out the supply a bit, increasing demand for 1 BR and reducing demand for studios. Meanwhile, the difference between a 1BR preferred and a 2 BR standard would go from being only a 14 point difference, to being a 63 point difference.
This would greatly reduce the number of single families who decide to book 2 BR simply because it barely costs more than the 1 BR.

Now obviously, if you are someone who always books studios and 2 BRs at the 11 month mark, you would be a "loser" with this change.
But overall, I believe the DVC community would be winners: More availability across all room types at the 7 month mark. Better chance of booking a studio at an away resort at the 7 month mark. And more "affordable" for families to take advantage of 1BR units. And finally, more consistency in savings, break even point.

As things stand now, a new buyer will break even much faster if they book studios vs 1 bedroom units.

 

[prs_14]

Just because I feel like it, I decided to do some value/point comparisons. I'm planning a trip to Riviera in mid August 2021, so I decided to use 8/14-8/21 as this example. I checked what was available as cash booking. Obviously, it's rack rate, no discount. But when discounts come out, likely same for all rooms.
So here are the prices, the necessary points, and the value per point
Preferred Studio: $5262, 168 points, $31.32 per point
1 BR - preferred -- $8134, 364 points -- $22.34 per point
2 BR - standard - $9698, 378 points -- $25.65 per point
2 BR preferred -- $11,468, 455 points -- $25.20 per point.

When you rent points, rental agencies charge a standard fee per point -- doesn't matter whether you plan to use the point for a studio versus a 2-bedroom. When you purchase 1-time add-on points from Disney, it's a set price.
So I do wish the point chart did a better job of valuing the points consistently. Heck, if Disney does a 20-30%+ discount, then it would be cheaper to book with cash as opposed to renting points, for the 1 BR and maybe even the 2 BR units.

I recognize there is a dispute as to whether it's even allowed, but I would love to see the chart adjusted to give more consistent value over room type and seasons.
For example, if there was an effort to have the points worth roughly $25 per point... Then the week rates would be:
210 points for a week in preferred studio. 325 points for 1 BR preferred. 388 points for a 2 BR standard. And 458 points for 2 BR preferred.

The big difference would be the space between Studio and 1 BR preferred -- instead of a 196 point difference, it would only be a 115 point difference. Studio would remain much "cheaper" than a 1 bedroom, but it would even out the supply a bit, increasing demand for 1 BR and reducing demand for studios. Meanwhile, the difference between a 1BR preferred and a 2 BR standard would go from being only a 14 point difference, to being a 63 point difference.
This would greatly reduce the number of single families who decide to book 2 BR simply because it barely costs more than the 1 BR.

Now obviously, if you are someone who always books studios and 2 BRs at the 11 month mark, you would be a "loser" with this change.
But overall, I believe the DVC community would be winners: More availability across all room types at the 7 month mark. Better chance of booking a studio at an away resort at the 7 month mark. And more "affordable" for families to take advantage of 1BR units. And finally, more consistency in savings, break even point.

As things stand now, a new buyer will break even much faster if they book studios vs 1 bedroom units.

Great and thoughtful analysis. It does seem like there should be more consistency between the cash and point rates.

 

[Leight19]

Just because I feel like it, I decided to do some value/point comparisons. I'm planning a trip to Riviera in mid August 2021, so I decided to use 8/14-8/21 as this example. I checked what was available as cash booking. Obviously, it's rack rate, no discount. But when discounts come out, likely same for all rooms.
So here are the prices, the necessary points, and the value per point
Preferred Studio: $5262, 168 points, $31.32 per point
1 BR - preferred -- $8134, 364 points -- $22.34 per point
2 BR - standard - $9698, 378 points -- $25.65 per point
2 BR preferred -- $11,468, 455 points -- $25.20 per point.

When you rent points, rental agencies charge a standard fee per point -- doesn't matter whether you plan to use the point for a studio versus a 2-bedroom. When you purchase 1-time add-on points from Disney, it's a set price.
So I do wish the point chart did a better job of valuing the points consistently. Heck, if Disney does a 20-30%+ discount, then it would be cheaper to book with cash as opposed to renting points, for the 1 BR and maybe even the 2 BR units.

I recognize there is a dispute as to whether it's even allowed, but I would love to see the chart adjusted to give more consistent value over room type and seasons.
For example, if there was an effort to have the points worth roughly $25 per point... Then the week rates would be:
210 points for a week in preferred studio. 325 points for 1 BR preferred. 388 points for a 2 BR standard. And 458 points for 2 BR preferred.

The big difference would be the space between Studio and 1 BR preferred -- instead of a 196 point difference, it would only be a 115 point difference. Studio would remain much "cheaper" than a 1 bedroom, but it would even out the supply a bit, increasing demand for 1 BR and reducing demand for studios. Meanwhile, the difference between a 1BR preferred and a 2 BR standard would go from being only a 14 point difference, to being a 63 point difference.
This would greatly reduce the number of single families who decide to book 2 BR simply because it barely costs more than the 1 BR.

Now obviously, if you are someone who always books studios and 2 BRs at the 11 month mark, you would be a "loser" with this change.
But overall, I believe the DVC community would be winners: More availability across all room types at the 7 month mark. Better chance of booking a studio at an away resort at the 7 month mark. And more "affordable" for families to take advantage of 1BR units. And finally, more consistency in savings, break even point.

As things stand now, a new buyer will break even much faster if they book studios vs 1 bedroom units.

I think this is an excellent breakdown and something I’ve tried exploring to look cross resort which rooms have high and low point per night cost compared to cash rates. As you see here typically the studio is great value on points, 2 bedroom is good value, and 1 bedroom is moderate to bad value (with discounts can go cash cheaper then rental). I agree the booking patterns and cash prices point to need to increase studios a bit and decrease 1br if it’s possible within rules (think there’s fair amount of leeway for things done in best interest of membership).

A less likely solution which I also have been thinking through which could help would be if there was separation in occupancy between studio and 1BR. I’ve wondered if with new design styles whether a refurb in future could find way to increase some 1BR to 6 guests (even if it’s just the *6 without extra bedding). To me this would make the cost of 1BR vs studio worth the 2x cost without major shift to point charts. It would also make the lock off premium easier to swallow if the studio + 1BR had higher occupancy then 2BR.

 

[Sandisw]

I think this is an excellent breakdown and something I’ve tried exploring to look cross resort which rooms have high and low point per night cost compared to cash rates. As you see here typically the studio is great value on points, 2 bedroom is good value, and 1 bedroom is moderate to bad value (with discounts can go cash cheaper then rental). I agree the booking patterns and cash prices point to need to increase studios a bit and decrease 1br if it’s possible within rules (think there’s fair amount of leeway for things done in best interest of membership).

A less likely solution which I also have been thinking through which could help would be if there was separation in occupancy between studio and 1BR. I’ve wondered if with new design styles whether a refurb in future could find way to increase some 1BR to 6 guests (even if it’s just the *6 without extra bedding). To me this would make the cost of 1BR vs studio worth the 2x cost without major shift to point charts. It would also make the lock off premium easier to swallow if the studio + 1BR had higher occupancy then 2BR.

The problem is that the current size of 1 bedrooms at the older resorts would not be big enough to fit 6, even without bedding.

I think @drusba posted that the POS has something regarding points being determined in some way by square footage which is why at this point, I don’t think there is a way equalize much between 1 bedroom and studio to correlate with demand.

 

[havoc315]

I think this is an excellent breakdown and something I’ve tried exploring to look cross resort which rooms have high and low point per night cost compared to cash rates. As you see here typically the studio is great value on points, 2 bedroom is good value, and 1 bedroom is moderate to bad value (with discounts can go cash cheaper then rental). I agree the booking patterns and cash prices point to need to increase studios a bit and decrease 1br if it’s possible within rules (think there’s fair amount of leeway for things done in best interest of membership).

A less likely solution which I also have been thinking through which could help would be if there was separation in occupancy between studio and 1BR. I’ve wondered if with new design styles whether a refurb in future could find way to increase some 1BR to 6 guests (even if it’s just the *6 without extra bedding). To me this would make the cost of 1BR vs studio worth the 2x cost without major shift to point charts. It would also make the lock off premium easier to swallow if the studio + 1BR had higher occupancy then 2BR.

At least at Riviera, Studio + 1BR has an occupancy of 10. 2BR only has occupancy of 9.

 

[havoc315]

The problem is that the current size of 1 bedrooms at the older resorts would not be big enough to fit 6, even without bedding.

I think @drusba posted that the POS has something regarding points being determined in some way by square footage which is why at this point, I don’t think there is a way equalize much between 1 bedroom and studio to correlate with demand.

Agreed to the extent it does seem, within resort, they are primarily looking at square footage. Unfortunately, that’s not always a good measure of supply and demand. Yes, bigger should cost more. But twice as big isn’t necessarily worth twice the price.

And we can see they don’t strictly price on square footage.
At Riviera, 2BR is 53% bigger than 1BR in square footage. But the point cost difference is only 24%-30%.

So go from sleep5/400sf —> sleep5/800sf = 110% point increase
then go from sleep5/800sf—>sleep10/1200sf = 30% point increase.

If it was purely based on square footage, then the 2BR would still be significant,y more expensive, and the 1BR would still be a bit cheaper.

As things stand, at most resorts, the jump from 1BR —> 2BR is a major bargain. Pay 25-30% more to get twice as many bedrooms, twice as many bathrooms, double the sleeping capacity.