The Running Thread—2023

[camaker]

With regards to the discussions on tempo runs, Hansons, run slow to go fast, etc., do other people not have these methods/suggestions not work for them? I've seen a big push of articles and videos recently on the "run slow to go fast" advice, but I have never had success with the "slow" pace that these methods suggest. I have tried some of those suggestions in past marathon trainings and they were the worst races I have had. I'm not a super fast runner, my marathon times are about 3:50-3:55 and halfs at 1:45-1:50. So, marathon pace is in the 9min per mile pace, which usually suggests slow pace of 10-11 minutes (the suggestion is sometimes to run 80% of your weekly mileage at that pace). The effort difference of 10-11 minute per mile paces and 9 minute paces over a marathon is pretty large, and as mentioned when I tried to follow this plan, on race day I simply could not sustain the 9 minute pace over the full course distance. It seems to me conditioning yourself with that much mileage at that much slower of a pace doesn't get you ready for the effort level you need on race day. Now, I am not saying I run every single training mile full out, but my "easy days", "slow pace" falls closer to a 9:30 minute mile, and still use speed/tempo days.

I always feel like an oddball when I hear about people on these slow paces, or read articles on the slow, long run advice, as I don't seem to be able to get it to work for me.

I'm one of the folks that has worked with @DopeyBadger under the "run slow to go fast" philosophy. I'm not quite as fast as you (half marathon PR of ~1:52), but not that far off, either. I was able to use the methodology to get to a 3:57 marathon PR run with a negative split, so maintaining the effort level over the distance obviously wasn't a huge problem. For reference, I ran 5 days/week and my training looked like the following:

3 x Easy runs/wk @ 9:59-10:30/mile
1 x Tempo run @ 8:57/mile with warm-up & cool-down @ ~11:27/mile
1 x Long run @ 9:37/mile, capped at 16 miles

It did take me multiple cycles following the program to achieve the 3:57 marathon, but I saw steady improvement in my marathon times along the way. Maybe the potential need for multiple cycles is something to consider?

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

I’m a very slow runner (13:30 mile HM), and I can’t really run much slower than my HM pace, so I just train at HM pace (with attempts at T+D adjustments)

I have been trying to run a slightly slower pace during my weekday training runs, and either wind up about the same, or actually running a little faster as my level of fitness improves. Go figure.

 

[Naomeri]

I have been trying to run a slightly slower pace during my weekday training runs, and either wind up about the same, or actually running a little faster as my level of fitness improves. Go figure.

I even changed my run/walk intervals from 30/45 to 30/60 and I still don’t get much slower now that the weather is cooling down

 

[Zutroy]

I think the recent article about elite runners ditching GPS watches really highlights the importance of the feel of the run versus relying on numbers. Easy runs should feel easy and not be based to an exact second. I like checking in with myself during a run to see how I‘m feeling instead of relying on my watch to tell me how fast or slow I “should” be running. The whole purpose of long, slow distance is to increase mitochondria, capillaries, and myoglobin. I was always taught that the effort level should let you be able to have a casual conversation during an easy run. But you also have to mix in some speed work to get practice on the turnover you need to hit the faster paces.

 

[Naomeri]

Just a head’s up for all the Apple Watch users: with the new WatchOS upgrade, the “end workout” spot has moved from the bottom left to the top left, so start adjusting your muscle memory

 

[nancipants]

The T+D was under 130 for the first time in months, and my avg pace was 30-45 seconds faster per minute.

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

I think the recent article about elite runners ditching GPS watches really highlights the importance of the feel of the run versus relying on numbers. Easy runs should feel easy and not be based to an exact second. I like checking in with myself during a run to see how I‘m feeling instead of relying on my watch to tell me how fast or slow I “should” be running. The whole purpose of long, slow distance is to increase mitochondria, capillaries, and myoglobin. I was always taught that the effort level should let you be able to have a casual conversation during an easy run. But you also have to mix in some speed work to get practice on the turnover you need to hit the faster paces.

For a second there, I thought I saw midichlorians and had a new hope…

 

[RuntheMouse]

Got the Novablast 3 this past weekend. I feel like they made an improvement in the forefoot cushioning over the Novablast 2. I feel like that part of the shoe is a little bouncier now. I think this will be my half marathon shoe for MW, possibly the marathon also if the Gel Nimbus 25 turns out to be too much cushioning for my taste. That is an experiment in progress.

I ended up ordering a pair of Novablast 3’s, they showed up yesterday so I took them for a spin today. Love them! Right out of the box comfortable, no hot spots, good cushioning, not too plush. Was worried the mid foot was going to be too tight but it is perfect. Took them for 5 miles, might wear them for my 10 mile race next Sunday.

I feel like this might be the shoe I have been searching for since the Hoka Mach 4 left my rotation.

 

[PrincessV]

Okay, I’ve typed out and deleted 3 different versions of this, and honesty - it’s helping! I’ve gone from absolute sorrow and morose resignation, to something that might approach cautious optimism. Amazing what simply typing out your conflicting thoughts and feelings can do.

Anyway, the deal is this: long distance running hurts. Badly. In ways it never used to. And after seeing a gazillion specialists with varying ideas as to why, nothing is resolved and I’m out of time and money to keep trying new docs: it is what it is, and I can either quit or find another way.

I had a great 6 miles this morning, followed by 4 miles of agony, as alternating waves of pain and numbness washed through my right hip, leg and foot. Did the pain decrease almost to nothingness - or at least something tolerable - by walking more and running less? Yep. Was I willing to ditch my decades-long approach of :30/:30 intervals to be in less pain? Nope. I’m an idiot.

But after a cool-down stretch session, hot shower, and doing some household chores with virtually no pain - as in, the pain is pretty much nonexistent if I simply don’t RUN - I’m trying to accept that this is my new Normal. I’ve got all 3 W&D races coming up, followed by the 10K and half in Jan… my options as I see them now are eat the money already spent and skip the halfs altogether, or… walk more, run less and get through them. Maybe even, IDK - enjoy them. And then I can either walk away (heh heh, see what I did there?!) from long distances, or keep going with the walk more/run less program, depending on how I feel about it then.

So why is that so hard To wrap my head around? Plenty of people walk ALL of the races! Plenty more walk more than they run! They seem to be pretty happy, too. Is this something that just happens when you’re over 50 - refusal to accept whatever limitations start coming down your path?! Stubborn defensiveness against change?! GET OFF MY LAWN?!

IDK y’all, but something’s gotta give: trying to do it my old way clearly isn’t working anymore. So here’s a QOTD for you: how do you create a new running habit when it feels like a step backward? Wipe all your previous data and start fresh? Stop tracking altogether? Find a new mantra? Fake it til you make it? I’m all ears!

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Okay, I’ve typed out and deleted 3 different versions of this, and honesty - it’s helping! I’ve gone from absolute sorrow and morose resignation, to something that might approach cautious optimism. Amazing what simply typing out your conflicting thoughts and feelings can do.

Anyway, the deal is this: long distance running hurts. Badly. In ways it never used to. And after seeing a gazillion specialists with varying ideas as to why, nothing is resolved and I’m out of time and money to keep trying new docs: it is what it is, and I can either quit or find another way.

I had a great 6 miles this morning, followed by 4 miles of agony, as alternating waves of pain and numbness washed through my right hip, leg and foot. Did the pain decrease almost to nothingness - or at least something tolerable - by walking more and running less? Yep. Was I willing to ditch my decades-long approach of :30/:30 intervals to be in less pain? Nope. I’m an idiot.

But after a cool-down stretch session, hot shower, and doing some household chores with virtually no pain - as in, the pain is pretty much nonexistent if I simply don’t RUN - I’m trying to accept that this is my new Normal. I’ve got all 3 W&D races coming up, followed by the 10K and half in Jan… my options as I see them now are eat the money already spent and skip the halfs altogether, or… walk more, run less and get through them. Maybe even, IDK - enjoy them. And then I can either walk away (heh heh, see what I did there?!) from long distances, or keep going with the walk more/run less program, depending on how I feel about it then.

So why is that so hard To wrap my head around? Plenty of people walk ALL of the races! Plenty more walk more than they run! They seem to be pretty happy, too. Is this something that just happens when you’re over 50 - refusal to accept whatever limitations start coming down your path?! Stubborn defensiveness against change?! GET OFF MY LAWN?!

IDK y’all, but something’s gotta give: trying to do it my old way clearly isn’t working anymore. So here’s a QOTD for you: how do you create a new running habit when it feels like a step backward? Wipe all your previous data and start fresh? Stop tracking altogether? Find a new mantra? Fake it til you make it? I’m all ears!

I am 57 and admitting limitations only with great reluctance and usually after a lot of denial.

And FWIW, my last marathon was 50-55% walking. Use whatever walk/run mix is needed to just git ‘er done, to use an expression.

 

[jmasgat]

So here’s a QOTD for you: how do you create a new running habit when it feels like a step backward? Wipe all your previous data and start fresh? Stop tracking altogether? Find a new mantra? Fake it til you make it? I’m all ears!

Oh god, this is such a question that I have struggled with for the past few years. I will say that I have reached a "new normal" of just wanting to run without setting time goals, and "race" (as in a sponsored timed running event) because it interests me. But this has NOT been done because of any positivity/mind training/mantra spouting on my part. It has just occurred with TIME (and injury)

I was (note past tense) a solid age group runner and BQ-er, typically winning/ finishing top 5 in my age group for the races I entered (and even winning at least one or two outright). But injury is my nemesis, and having to take so much time off to heal has a natural way of changing one's mindset/sapping the motivation to kill oneself to get back to "where I was" or to do long distances. Plus, I'm 64 and that's not happening anyway. I STILL have days where I think "maybe if I....", but fortunately these are fewer.

So instead, I will run the 10k at DL in January (if I get off my butt to book ressies) and next month I am going to Scotland to run the Half Dram at The Dramathon (finishers get Whisky samples). And in November I finally (on the 4th try) will run NYC (if my knee cooperates).

I have no easy answer, but I believe you can find something that works for you.

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Oh god, this is such a question that I have struggled with for the past few years. I will say that I have reached a "new normal" of just wanting to run without setting time goals, and "race" (as in a sponsored timed running event) because it interests me. But this has NOT been done because of any positivity/mind training/mantra spouting on my part. It has just occurred with TIME (and injury)

I was (note past tense) a solid age group runner and BQ-er, typically winning/ finishing top 5 in my age group for the races I entered (and even winning at least one or two outright). But injury is my nemesis, and having to take so much time off to heal has a natural way of changing one's mindset/sapping the motivation to kill oneself to get back to "where I was" or to do long distances. Plus, I'm 64 and that's not happening anyway. I STILL have days where I think "maybe if I....", but fortunately these are fewer.

So instead, I will run the 10k at DL in January (if I get off my butt to book ressies) and next month I am going to Scotland to run the Half Dram at The Dramathon (finishers get Whisky samples). And in November I finally (on the 4th try) will run NYC (if my knee cooperates).

I have no easy answer, but I believe you can find something that works for you.

That Half Dram would be a far more interesting race if they did the whiskey samples before running it. Just saying…

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Okay, I’ve typed out and deleted 3 different versions of this, and honesty - it’s helping! I’ve gone from absolute sorrow and morose resignation, to something that might approach cautious optimism. Amazing what simply typing out your conflicting thoughts and feelings can do.

Anyway, the deal is this: long distance running hurts. Badly. In ways it never used to. And after seeing a gazillion specialists with varying ideas as to why, nothing is resolved and I’m out of time and money to keep trying new docs: it is what it is, and I can either quit or find another way.

I had a great 6 miles this morning, followed by 4 miles of agony, as alternating waves of pain and numbness washed through my right hip, leg and foot. Did the pain decrease almost to nothingness - or at least something tolerable - by walking more and running less? Yep. Was I willing to ditch my decades-long approach of :30/:30 intervals to be in less pain? Nope. I’m an idiot.

But after a cool-down stretch session, hot shower, and doing some household chores with virtually no pain - as in, the pain is pretty much nonexistent if I simply don’t RUN - I’m trying to accept that this is my new Normal. I’ve got all 3 W&D races coming up, followed by the 10K and half in Jan… my options as I see them now are eat the money already spent and skip the halfs altogether, or… walk more, run less and get through them. Maybe even, IDK - enjoy them. And then I can either walk away (heh heh, see what I did there?!) from long distances, or keep going with the walk more/run less program, depending on how I feel about it then.

So why is that so hard To wrap my head around? Plenty of people walk ALL of the races! Plenty more walk more than they run! They seem to be pretty happy, too. Is this something that just happens when you’re over 50 - refusal to accept whatever limitations start coming down your path?! Stubborn defensiveness against change?! GET OFF MY LAWN?!

IDK y’all, but something’s gotta give: trying to do it my old way clearly isn’t working anymore. So here’s a QOTD for you: how do you create a new running habit when it feels like a step backward? Wipe all your previous data and start fresh? Stop tracking altogether? Find a new mantra? Fake it til you make it? I’m all ears!

More of my 2-cents.
I long ago realized that I am only a mediocre speed runner and will never be as fast as I was back in high school or college, if I was even all that fast then. On the other hand, I can finish and amaze the heck out of my family and friends for even completing some of these distance races, so I go and I run and I walk when I have to and I finish the races and take pride in the fact that at my age I am out there doing it and not just sitting on my butt, plus enjoying how much better I feel physically for getting in shape. And I’m sitting here right now, looking forward to the upcoming races, and a couple of miles into them I will be wondering (again) why it was such a good idea.

The fact that you are able to do a post run recovery and be fairly pain-free indicates maybe stick to shorter races. Or run what you can, and do a recovery during the race by doing some walking. Those are my best thoughts on the matter. I hope you are able to come up with something that works.

 

[Naomeri]

That Half Dram would be a far more interesting race if they did the whiskey samples before running it. Just saying…

Or at least as an option at the water stops?

 

[Kerry1957]

I'll be 66 next month and have found a new normal by generally forgetting about time and just enjoying the races living in the moment. Giving up all of the unnecessary stress and disappointment of trying to keep up with the 50something version of me (when I started running) has been liberating.

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

I'll be 66 next month and have found a new normal by generally forgetting about time and just enjoying the races living in the moment. Giving up all of the unnecessary stress and disappointment of trying to keep up with the 50something version of me (when I started running) has been liberating.

This!

 

[nancipants]

New women’s world record from the Berlin Marathon: Tigist Assefa with 2:11:53!

 

[FFigawi]

New women’s world record from the Berlin Marathon: Tigist Assefa with 2:11:53!

Wow! That’s incredible. I hope it’s real and we don’t read about a failed drug test down the line. I’m always skeptical of performances far beyond the normal for a sport.

 

[AaronB]

1) What are your PRs and when did they occur?
2) What are all your race times that cover the span of time in which PRs occurred or the last 4 years (whichever is longer in time)?
3) Chronologically, what were each of the training plans you've followed and when? And when you did them, did you do them by the book/as written, or did you go off plan with edits?
4) If you can provide the training data either through Strava or Garmin, I can look at different aspects of the training and race pace plans. My preference is Strava because I find it an easier interface to comb other people's data in.

Probably not going to be much help here as I don't do a great job of documenting my running history. I do have a running watch (Coros), but often don't even sync the data. Basically, just check it during/after the run, and then move on. I'm not even sure the last time I looked through the Coros app. I also do part of the training on a treadmill, and am not always wearing my watch. Will mention here as well, I do loosely follow the concept of Zone 2 heart rate training, so I do keep an eye on that and keep any runs that are basically not speedwork in that zone.

My marathon PR was 2018 for the marathon, which was a 3:51:16, and my half PR was in 2020 with a 1:44:58.

I tried Hanson's way back in 2015, and did what I think was labelled a beginner marathon plan. It was not my first marathon at that point, had two previous marathons in 2013 and 2014 (a 3:58:36 and 4:06:23), and a few halfs ranging from 1:55 to 2:15. The 2015 with Hanson's was a 4:41:30, where I basically started fading around mile 15 and by mile 22 was completely shot. In 2016 tried a plan that I think was from Runner's World, but was based on the 80/20 (run slow, go fast) concept. Again, basically followed the schedule as noted, and that 2016 marathon was a 4:52:27. During that race, basically everything from mile 13 on was a struggle. In both those cases, I could just tell my body was not ready to swing up from the slower training miles and sustaining my marathon pace.

Basically, my training now consists of 4 run days, a long run on the weekend, that ramps up in mileage towards a race day (every 3 or 4 weeks I do a slight reduction in long run mileage as an easier week). Although, I never let a run go over 3 hours, so I top out at about 19-20 miles at the peak. Then the rest of the week I mix in a 8-11 mile tempo run, an 8-13 mile "slow" run, and a speed day between 6-8 miles. Weekly mileage peaks right around 50 miles per week. On days I am not running, I do rowing as cross-training.

I should say I am happy with my training/times, my question was more out of curiosity of how much of an anomally I was. I have just found that if the differential between training pace and race pace is too great, on race day I can usually tell pretty quickly if I'm burning myself out trying to get up to my desired race pace.

 

[DisneyParrothead]

I'll be 66 next month and have found a new normal by generally forgetting about time and just enjoying the races living in the moment. Giving up all of the unnecessary stress and disappointment of trying to keep up with the 50something version of me (when I started running) has been liberating.

Yes! When I got my ITBS under control I got it into my head to hit paces I haven’t seen since college. Why? I don’t know. I was focused on that I didn’t enjoy Princess weekend this year because nothing went according to plan for the 10k. I got home and had a come to Jesus meeting with myself. I run for fun, not to hit some competitive pace.