Riviera Resort Questions...<sorry if there's a thread on it already>

[CarolMN]

Fixed it for you. (You have to begin typing your post after the [/QUOTE]. I f you type before that, what you type becomes part of the quote).

 

[JETSDAD]

If you don’t mind me asking, because I’m trying to wrap my head around the restrictions anyways - with all the restrictions on Riviera for resale people, not being able to book at other resorts, etc, wouldn’t it be better to buy direct? Or do I have it all backwards? I thought if you buy Riviera direct you have all the benefits and it’s the resale market they are trying to curb? Again, I could be way off so pardon my ignorance!

I think a lot of people are very nervous about the affect that the restrictions are going to have on the resale value. If you pay the direct price and then have to sell for some reason how large of a hit will someone take? On the other hand, if the resale prices are very low it may be worth buying even though you would be restricted to that resort (assuming you like the resort).

 

[sleepydog25]

If you don’t mind me asking, because I’m trying to wrap my head around the restrictions anyways - with all the restrictions on Riviera for resale people, not being able to book at other resorts, etc, wouldn’t it be better to buy direct? Or do I have it all backwards? I thought if you buy Riviera direct you have all the benefits and it’s the resale market they are trying to curb? Again, I could be way off so pardon my ignorance!

Echoing JETSDAD, buying direct at Riviera will allow you to use all the other resorts when you book at 7 months; however, a larger issue becomes what if something happens that reverses one's fortune? Illness, unemployment, etc. Or what if you decide after several years that Disney is no longer where you wish to visit? Yes, these are questions to have considered before buying, but just look at how many resale contracts are available and have been bought over the past couple of decades. Things happen. Before, if you had to sell, resale was a decent option, especially if you had owned for enough years where you could sell for a minimum loss or even make a little. For new owners at Riviera who may be blinded by the Disney magic, if they should have to sell down the road, the fear is that resale prices will be stunted because the resale owner will be restricted JUST to using Riviera. If I was a resale buyer, I wouldn't buy at Riviera unless the cost was dirt cheap, and in that case, Disney would likely swoop in with ROFR at still a very low end amount. In short, it makes buying Riviera riskier than previous DVC properties. On the other hand, buying resale now at older properties, despite new restrictions, means you still have 14 properties that you can book. . .just not Riviera. That would be an easy trade off for me to make.

 

[luvmychaos]

Fixed it for you. (You have to begin typing your post after the

. I f you type before that, what you type becomes part of the quote).[/QUOTE]

Thank you!(I did it right!) *edited to say No I didn’t

 

[_auroraborealis_]

A lot of people who have to sell don't plan on selling when they buy.

 

[chalee94]

A lot of people who have to sell don't plan on selling when they buy.

yep, and now if you have an illness or job loss or divorce and have to sell, Disney will be looking to kick you while you're down.

 

[jerseygal]

After release of additional information on the pools, I am eager to try Riviera. Wonder when DVC members can start booking? We like relaxing at the pool during our vaca, the Stone Turret Slide looks very cool!

 

[drusba]

After release of additional information on the pools, I am eager to try Riviera. Wonder when DVC members can start booking? We like relaxing at the pool during our vaca, the Stone Turret Slide looks very cool!

Disney cannot start selling the resort as DVC or allow any existing members to reserve with points at Riviera until after it files the official Declarations for Riviera with exhibits with the Orange County Comptroller. Typically, once that is filed, sales and reservations could begin within a month or possibly less.

Disney has not yet filed the Declarations for Riviera. To be able to file those, it must first have the Department of Business and Professional Regulations timeshare division sign-off on the site and multi-site POS for the new resort. It appears that approval may have already been given but Disney appears to have made a major error in what was filed and approved. DVD apparently intended, as had been announced on the DVC site, to prohibit all resale purchasers of all resorts, who purchase on or after Jan 19, 2019, from reserving Riviera. However, under the clear language of the Riviera POS that was filed and approved, all resale purchasers of the existing resorts who purchase on or after Jan 19, 2019, can reserve Riviera as long as they purchase from a member who owned the resort interest being sold before Jan 19, 2019.

Thus, I am guessing DVD is now considering what it should do. The wise choice, if it wants to keep the restriction prohibiting any new resale purchasers from reserving Riviera, would be to file another amendment to the POS with the DBPR and get it approved. That may require it to change that Jan 19, 2019 date to a later date, and, in any event, it will take time for the DBPR to approve any amendment (that agency is known to be particularly slow in issuing responses) and thus the filing of the Declarations with the Orange County Comptroller will likely be delayed if DVD decides to file another amendment to the POS with the DBPR.

 

[CarolMN]

Disney cannot start selling the resort as DVC or allow any existing members to reserve with points at Riviera until after it files the official Declarations for Riviera with exhibits with the Orange County Comptroller. Typically, once that is filed, sales and reservations could begin within a month or possibly less.

Disney has not yet filed the Declarations for Riviera. To be able to file those, it must first have the Department of Business and Professional Regulations timeshare division sign-off on the site and multi-site POS for the new resort. It appears that approval may have already been given but Disney appears to have made a major error in what was filed and approved. DVD apparently intended, as had been announced on the DVC site, to prohibit all resale purchasers of all resorts, who purchase on or after Jan 19, 2019, from reserving Riviera. However, under the clear language of the Riviera POS that was filed and approved, all resale purchasers of the existing resorts who purchase on or after Jan 19, 2019, can reserve Riviera as long as they purchase from a member who owned the resort interest being sold before Jan 19, 2019.

Thus, I am guessing DVD is now considering what it should do. The wise choice, if it wants to keep the restriction prohibiting any new resale purchasers from reserving Riviera, would be to file another amendment to the POS with the DBPR and get it approved. That may require it to change that Jan 19, 2019 date to a later date, and, in any event, it will take time for the DBPR to approve any amendment (that agency is known to be particularly slow in issuing responses) and thus the filing of the Declarations with the Orange County Comptroller will likely be delayed if DVD decides to file another amendment to the POS with the DBPR..

Thank you for explaining the resale issue so clearly. After all the lengthy (& all over the place) threads lately, I'd lost track of what the heart of the issues really are.

In a nutshell, I now understand that it's the resale issue (Disney apparently intended that no one who buys any DVC resort via resale after 1/19/2019 can book Riviera) and the lock off premium issue (for all DVC resorts) that are behind most of the concern.

That said, I understand that resale purchases of the L14 will retain the ability to book non-home L14 resorts at 7 months. So the resale issue re booking the Riviera is unlikely to have much of an impact on those of us who currently own.

I still look forward to the point charts and other info on the Riviera, even though it appears the dues are going to be a deal beaker for me personally.

 

[crvetter]

Thank you for explaining the resale issue so clearly. After all the lengthy (& all over the place) threads lately, I'd lost track of what the heart of the issues really are.

In a nutshell, I now understand that it's the resale issue (Disney apparently intended that no one who buys and DVC resort via resale after 1/19/2019 can book Riviera) and the lock off premium issue (for all DVC resorts) that are behind most of the concern.

That said, I understand that resale purchases of the L14 will retain the ability to book non-home L14 resorts at 7 months. So the resale issue re booking the Riviera is unlikely to have much of an impact on those of us who currently own.

I still look forward to the point charts and other info on the Riviera, even though it appears the dues are going to be a deal beaker for me personally.

I really don’t think the dues in the end will be a huge stand out, for me, for a couple reasons

1) PVB/VGF has some of the lowest MF but the highest MF per studio booked a night because of its much higher nightly point cost. So you need to consider the cost per room night not the cost per point since nightly point costs are different
2) Point costs for Riviera are likely to be similar to BLT considering a similar room mix and similar number of points declared when adjusted for 341 rooms at Riviera vs 281 at BLT
3) Riviera is opening likely in September so it’s budget is based on higher salaries since the next pay raise is March 1 to 12 an hour and then September 1 to 13 an hour. So it’s budget is using a higher salary of 13 an hour to determin its MF vs the 12.10 (average over the entire year) the other resorts are using. Which is a 7.5% increase alone. If we assume everyone is paid minimum wages.

You can see my posts that tried to show while Riviera will be expensive it won’t likely be more than VGF or PVB. It likely will be around BLT in my honest opinion. I really wanted to point these out because I might expect Riviera to have less of an increase in 2020 dues vs the other resorts because the dues in 2019 were based off of 13 an hour vs the 12.10 and 2020 operates mostly under 13 an hour. Also the points required per night should be less than PVB and VGF this normalizing it’s cost when considering you want to look at cost per room.

It was an interesting exercise I did. Mostly at one point because people kept saying CCV is very expensive in MF but when I ran the numbers for cost on a room basis which is the ultimate concern I found CCV (which I was considering buying) to be middle of the road. Now the analysis below is predicated on the fact you didn’t buy your points mainly to use at other resorts. If that is the case you then just want to buy points with the lowest MF and cost per point (annualized). It’s a different analysis really.

This is all just my opinion based on what we have available. Once we get the real point charts I’m interested where that Riviera rooms will fall.

Wage Discussion
https://www.disboards.com/threads/m...-dated-01-19-19.3734585/page-10#post-60290087

Maintenance Fees to Book a Room and View for a whole Year
https://www.disboards.com/threads/m...n-dated-01-19-19.3734585/page-9#post-60285643

 

[drusba]

In the near term, restricting post-Jan 18, 2019 resale purchasers of the existing 14 resorts from reserving Riviera (or other future resorts) should not have a noticeable impact on reservations at the current 14 DVC Resorts. However, there could develop an issue over the long term.

In 10-15 years, there could easily be another 4 to 5 new resorts in addition to Riviera. During that time, you can have a significant turnover of owners of the existing 14 resorts with a large percentage becoming those who purchased resale after Jan 2019. They will be able to reserve at 7 months out only those 14 resorts while all the direct purchasers of the future resorts (possibly tens of thousands) will also be able to reserve those 14 resorts at 7 months out.

That competition will be amplified further, if, as suspected, the new resorts will have higher per night point requirements than similar already existing resorts, thus giving owners of those new resorts a high incentive to try to switch at 7 months out (e.g., based on number of rooms and total points, we now suspect that Riviera’s point requirements are going to be higher than BCV, BWV, BRV and CCV). Currently existing members could possibly face a situation where at least the near park resorts among the 14 current resorts become difficult to get at 7 months out throughout the year, because most available rooms will disappear before or right at the opening of the 7 month window. That could also lead to more members of the existing resorts to decide that they need to reserve their own resorts right at 11 months out to assure they will have a room, thus possibly creating more problems reserving rooms even at 11 months out.

In essence, no one should assume DVD’s new resale restrictions will be good for anyone in the long term.

 

[sleepydog25]

That competition will be amplified further, if, as suspected, the new resorts will have higher per night point requirements than similar already existing resorts, thus giving owners of those new resorts a high incentive to try to switch at 7 months out (e.g., based on number of rooms and total points, we now suspect that Riviera’s point requirements are going to be higher than BCV, BWV, BRV and CCV). Currently existing members could possibly face a situation where at least the near park resorts among the 14 current resorts become difficult to get at 7 months out throughout the year, because most available rooms will disappear before or right at the opening of the 7 month window. That could also lead to more members of the existing resorts to decide that they need to reserve their own resorts right at 11 months out to assure they will have a room, thus possibly creating more problems reserving rooms even at 11 months out.

In essence, no one should assume DVD’s new resale restrictions will be good for anyone in the long term.

In this case, "Buy where you want to stay" may become more than a mantra.

 

[crvetter]

That competition will be amplified further, if, as suspected, the new resorts will have higher per night point requirements than similar already existing resorts, thus giving owners of those new resorts a high incentive to try to switch at 7 months out (e.g., based on number of rooms and total points, we now suspect that Riviera’s point requirements are going to be higher than BCV, BWV, BRV and CCV). Currently existing members could possibly face a situation where at least the near park resorts among the 14 current resorts become difficult to get at 7 months out throughout the year, because most available rooms will disappear before or right at the opening of the 7 month window. That could also lead to more members of the existing resorts to decide that they need to reserve their own resorts right at 11 months out to assure they will have a room, thus possibly creating more problems reserving rooms even at 11 months out.

My hope (they probably won't do it though) is if they keep doing a points per night creep they institute the relative valuation of points across resorts to normalize that. Currently BVTC allows this but has always done a 1 to 1. But say if Reflections is higher per night than CCV/BRV and aligned with PVB or VGF or even BLT then they are going to create the problem you have stated. Reflections better have amazing amenities to demand the higher points vs. CCV and BRV that it likely will ask for.

 

[CarolMN]

In the near term, restricting post-Jan 18, 2019 resale purchasers of the existing 14 resorts from reserving Riviera (or other future resorts) should not have a noticeable impact on reservations at the current 14 DVC Resorts. However, there could develop an issue over the long term.

In 10-15 years, there could easily be another 4 to 5 new resorts in addition to Riviera. During that time, you can have a significant turnover of owners of the existing 14 resorts with a large percentage becoming those who purchased resale after Jan 2019. They will be able to reserve at 7 months out only those 14 resorts while all the direct purchasers of the future resorts (possibly tens of thousands) will also be able to reserve those 14 resorts at 7 months out.
trading
That competition will be amplified further, if, as suspected, the new resorts will have higher per night point requirements than similar already existing resorts, thus giving owners of those new resorts a high incentive to try to switch at 7 months out (e.g., based on number of rooms and total points, we now suspect that Riviera’s point requirements are going to be higher than BCV, BWV, BRV and CCV). Currently existing members could possibly face a situation where at least the near park resorts among the 14 current resorts become difficult to get at 7 months out throughout the year, because most available rooms will disappear before or right at the opening of the 7 month window. That could also lead to more members of the existing resorts to decide that they need to reserve their own resorts right at 11 months out to assure they will have a room, thus possibly creating more problems reserving rooms even at 11 months out.

In essence, no one should assume DVD’s new resale restrictions will be good for anyone in the long term.

While I agree that the resale restrictions are undesirable, we are probably looking at this issue with different assumptions. I'm assuming that DVCMC has an obligation to keep the points going between the L14 and new DVC resorts like Riviera in some sort of balance. Therefore, if the number of Riviera owners wanting to book the L14 resorts significantly exceeds the L14 owners wanting to book the Riviera, DVCMC is going to have to limit the number of Riviera points that can book the L14 resorts. Believe they already do this in some manner for trades to the Collections, including trades via the RCI system. The demand imbalance between the current L14 resorts isn't really a serious issue now because all the L14 points are in the same pool with the same booking entitlements. That won't be the case with the Riviera and subsequent resorts.

 

[crvetter]

While I agree that the resale restrictions are undesirable, we are probably looking at this issue with different assumptions. I'm assuming that DVCMC has an obligation to keep the points going between the L14 and new DVC resorts like Riviera in some sort of balance. Therefore, if the number of Riviera owners wanting to book the L14 resorts significantly exceeds the L14 owners wanting to book the Riviera, DVCMC is going to have to limit the number of Riviera points that can book the L14 resorts. Believe they already do this in some manner for trades to the Collections, including trades via the RCI system. The demand imbalance between the current L14 resorts isn't really a serious issue now because all the L14 points are in the same pool with the same booking entitlements. That won't be the case with the Riviera and subsequent resorts.

It's probably this exact reason Disney said they can "waive" the restrictions at any point in time and then re-institute them at any point in time. I'm sure a plan does exist but I don't think it will ever be a problem really as the L14 have 14 resorts and will have a resale turn over about the same as Riviera so less and less Riviera people will be allowed to trade into the L14 at a rate similar to the L14 wanting to trade into Riviera. Actually Riviera will have less burden on the L14 than the L14 will have on Riviera in a few years because there are far more owners at L14 to burden Riviera.

 

[bobbiwoz]

After release of additional information on the pools, I am eager to try Riviera. Wonder when DVC members can start booking? We like relaxing at the pool during our vaca, the Stone Turret Slide looks very cool!

I agree. I can see a mostly resort stay at Riviera. They are making it more probable that we will stay there.

 

[drusba]

And now that I think about, DVC may have a remedy to fix 7 month issues that exist now and may arise in the future in a way that may surprise and disappoint many. If you read your POS's and applicable agreements closely, the 7 month point chart situation we have can easily be changed. Contrary to what many believe, DVCMC, which sets home resort point requirements, is not actually the managing entity responsible for determining point requirements for exchanges among the resorts at 7 months out. The documents actually declare BVTC has that power and it is not required to follow the home resort point requirements set by DVCMC -- it just has always done so. See section 5.2 of the DVC Resort Agreement (for BWV, others may have the section number different) which provides, after explaining that members can use the DVC Reservation Component to use other resorts after converting their home resort points to DVC Vacation Points:

"The number of DVC Vacation Points required to reserve Vacation Homes at a DVC Resort will be determined annually by BVTC in its sole discretion..."

BVTC could thus choose to create different point requirements for exchanging among the resorts at 7 months out. For example, it could have adopted the previously withdrawn 2020 point charts for reserving at 7 months out while DVC retained the 2019 point structure for home resort reservations for 2020. Moreover, it is unclear that BVTC's determination of point requirements at 7 months out has to follow any rule other than acting in the best interests of the members of all resorts as a whole to make availability reasonable, e.g., past representations of DVC's being limited to seasonal adjustments could easily be argued as applicable only to home resort requirements; and restrictions possibly relating to having the charts stay within total points for the entire resort, limiting premium points for 1BRs and studios, and the statutory "one-to-one use right to use night requirement ratio," might not apply as long as exchanges can only be made after owners have been given a window to reserve their home resorts.

 

[crvetter]

And now that I think about, DVC may have a remedy to fix 7 month issues that exist now and may arise in the future in a way that may surprise and disappoint many. If you read your POS's and applicable agreements closely, the 7 month point chart situation we have can easily be changed. Contrary to what many believe, DVCMC, which sets home resort point requirements, is not actually the managing entity responsible for determining point requirements for exchanges among the resorts at 7 months out. The documents actually declare BVTC has that power and it is not required to follow the home resort point requirements set by DVCMC -- it just has always done so. See section 5.2 of the DVC Resort Agreement (for BWV, others may have the section number different) which provides, after explaining that members can use the DVC Reservation Component to use other resorts after converting their home resort points to DVC Vacation Points:

"The number of DVC Vacation Points required to reserve Vacation Homes at a DVC Resort will be determined annually by BVTC in its sole discretion..."

BVTC could thus choose to create different point requirements for exchanging among the resorts at 7 months out. For example, it could have adopted the previously withdrawn 2020 point charts for reserving at 7 months out while DVC retained the 2019 point structure for home resort reservations for 2020. Moreover, it is unclear that BVTC's determination of point requirements at 7 months out has to follow any rule other than acting in the best interests of the members of all resorts as a whole to make availability reasonable, e.g., past representations of DVC's being limited to seasonal adjustments could easily be argued as applicable only to home resort requirements; and restrictions possibly relating to having the charts stay within total points for the entire resort, limiting premium points for 1BRs and studios, and the statutory "one-to-one use right to use night requirement ratio," might not apply as long as exchanges can only be made after owners have been given a window to reserve their home resorts.

My point exactly but more clearly laid out. I think the one to one use right only matters for booking your home resort and as you said they gave Owners 4 months to take care of that. But also say it took 2 SSR points to book 1 PVB point I would assume it would take 1 PVB point to book 2 SSR points. So the trades in theory should still balance out and keep the one to one right to use consistent beyond the 7 months too.

My hope (they probably won't do it though) is if they keep doing a points per night creep they institute the relative valuation of points across resorts to normalize that. Currently BVTC allows this but has always done a 1 to 1. But say if Reflections is higher per night than CCV/BRV and aligned with PVB or VGF or even BLT then they are going to create the problem you have stated. Reflections better have amazing amenities to demand the higher points vs. CCV and BRV that it likely will ask for.

 

[Donna M]

Eew, I don't like that idea about the points. I own at SSR and like to sleep around!

 

[crvetter]

Eew, I don't like that idea about the points. I own at SSR and like to sleep around!

Unfortunately it is something that BVTC can do, just be aware of this. But this would be more useful if a more point intensive resort becomes a go to resort for "sleeping around". But I think this is why Disney is doing the resale restrictions. Say Riviera goes cheap price per point resale like SSR/OKW/AKV but cost more per night point wise. Well that incentives resale purchases to not stay at Riviera but use their points at cheaper per night resorts (at all cost bargain shopper mentality). As of right now the cheap $ per point cost resorts are aligned with the cheaper per night point costs (wasn't the case initially, which is why SSR got booking categories IMO). If those don't stay aligned then the 7 month booking window will become an issue (Riviera becomes empty and people who paid a lot more on resale or direct per point get stuck at Riviera), which in my opinion is what the restrictions are all about to prevent this (stop cheap points at a high point per night resort flooding the market at the 7 month window). If Riviera succeeds and people buy to stay there they just will remove the restrictions, which is something they said was in their powers. If Disney can turn a profit by cheap ROFR and resell direct that's a nice bonus to them and they are glad.

Now for the restriction on the L14 using their points at Riviera is a by-product of fairness. They couldn't let them trade in when bought on resale if they don't let Riviera resale trade out. Just too unbalanced then.

In the current state people who paid more per point aren't as upset at staying at resorts commonly bought to sleep around because they cost less per point and offer the advantage of extending their vacation. So those resorts serve a purpose too. But as I said if it flips I think people will be mad.