Response from FTA about new bus loading procedures.

[toocherie]

I am going to call the head of US disability services and compliance and give him a heads up, I am sure he is unaware of what is going on and will not be happy.

bookwormde: is this someone with Disney? Because two years in a row I have had an issue with HA rooms at SSR and management seems to be unable to understand the issue or deal with it--and special needs is unaware of how to handle as well.

Do you also know if Disney has any kind of HA committee or group (kinda like the Disney Mom's Panel)? If not--they should. Seriously, someone who is in a wheelchair or uses an ECV at Disney could point out issues with rooms and rides ahead of the fact. For example, at Toy Story ride in Disneyland they designed it to have a set of stairs to walk up after the ride. (Not sure if it's the same at DHS because I haven't ridden it there.) Who thought up that? Now ECV or wheelchair users who are able to walk a short distance but can't climb stairs are FORCED to use the HA cars which can result in a long line. If those stairs were not there they could park their 'wheels' at the entrance and use the regular line. Not very good planning. I have to think it slows down the regular loading when they have to constantly be inserting the HA cars in the queue.

I really think they should have an advisory committee.

 

[seashoreCM]

Inserting handicapped cars into the ride tunnel at Toy Story Mania causes a negligible delay to the sequence of non-handicapped cars. This is because it takes a long time to load up the next handicapped car. The only bottleneck occurs to handicapped folks because the passing lane for handicapped cars is only so long so only so many handicapped cars can queue up there waiting for riders. If all the handicapped cars have departed, handicapped folks have to wait for the next handicapped car to come out of the tunnel after completing the ride and enter the handicapped lane to unload.

If a bus driver has to keep trying to load a handicapped guest from the batters box (including asking others to move within the bus) prior to boarding others behind him, until succeeding or until relieved by another driver, then the act of doing so will more closely equalize the quality of service between handicapped and non-handicapped guests.

 

[toocherie]

Inserting handicapped cars into the ride tunnel at Toy Story Mania causes a negligible delay to the sequence of non-handicapped cars. This is because it takes a long time to load up the next handicapped car. The only bottleneck occurs to handicapped folks because the passing lane for handicapped cars is only so long so only so many handicapped cars can queue up there waiting for riders. If all the handicapped cars have departed, handicapped folks have to wait for the next handicapped car to come out of the tunnel after completing the ride and enter the handicapped lane to unload.

If a bus driver has to keep trying to load a handicapped guest from the batters box (including asking others to move within the bus) prior to boarding others behind him, until succeeding or until relieved by another driver, then the act of doing so will more closely equalize the quality of service between handicapped and non-handicapped guests.

On point 1--yes, I know. My point was that there are some of us who end up having to use the handicapped cars because we cannot negotiate stairs--but we could walk far enough to get on and off the ride. The fact that those stairs are in the exit means that many more people queue up for the handicapped cars than would be necessary if there was a non-stair exit.

And agree on point 2: but I don't think that is happening. I for one would wait for another bus rather than try to load an ECV with a lot of people on a bus already--it's too dangerous.

 

[bookwormde]

yes it is the person who oversees this area for USA parks.

No they do not have and advisory panel which surprises me a little.

I do not think this is a big deal to clear up so hopefully we can put it to bed and know that it is agianst policy.

The citation goes was back to the 90s and the acceptabel practice was developed after that as part of a settlemetn adn was adopted by a lrge precentage of tranprotation providors. As of a couple of years ago it had nto made it to the internet, since it is not part fo the formal ADA regs, and there is nothing specific that requires WDW to use this specific methodology, but they have to have some method of ensuring equal accomadation.

bookwormde

 

[toocherie]

yes it is the person who oversees this area for USA parks.

No they do not have and advisory panel which surprises me a little.



bookwormde

That really surprises me too. You may want to suggest it next time you talk to him. If they do, they need someone at all "levels" of handicap--people who cannot get around without a mobility device as well as those who can walk but are limited in some way. I did notice at Disneyland last week that they had ASL translaters at one of the shows which was very nice. (In fact they had two at this show because it was so fast-moving!)

 

[KPeveler]

That really surprises me too. You may want to suggest it next time you talk to him. If they do, they need someone at all "levels" of handicap--people who cannot get around without a mobility device as well as those who can walk but are limited in some way. I did notice at Disneyland last week that they had ASL translaters at one of the shows which was very nice. (In fact they had two at this show because it was so fast-moving!)

Both DL and WDW (all parks) have had Sign Language interpreters for live shows (i.e. ones that cannot easily have reflective captioning) for years. Just ask at the park for the schedule (different parks have ones for different days).

Most live shows that are complex like Aladdin will have two interpreters. Sign language interpreters at Disney are meant to be part of the show, which is one reason why there are two. Since complex shows may have singing duets, you would need more than one person. Also, they are meant to be more than "live captioning." They also replace the music and sound effects, as well as add in the audience reaction. It is very cool, and on my list of things I want to learn!

 

[LockShockBarrel]

I'm sure Disney has some kind of contact with national societies/associations/administrations that offer some kind of consulting on handicap issues, but not a group of people employed by Disney that handles it. They need it. I also think they need some sort of liason in the parks, like at guest services, who is specifically trained and educated on disabilities and handicaps, not just the general education all the CMs get (I brought this up on the friendly accessibility thread). This person should be willing to walk you through the handicap guides (the ones that tell you which rides are accessible and which you need to transfer from, that guide), assist you with proper GAC procedures, and offer help if someone has a question relating to a particular disability, something along the lines of "If my son is autistic, which rides might I want to avoid?" This person should also go through more extensive sensitivity training and be able to talk to someone, not at them or down to them. *Disney, if you're interested in hiring, let me know! *

 

[SueM in MN]

bookwormde: do you have a legal citation supporting the above-referenced statement? I know that in the past Sue has tried to find the regulation or law that supports the concept that if a HA passenger can't load the bus is considered "full" and can't load anyone else, but I don't think she found it. I would like to start a file so would appreciate the citations. Thanks!

The part about the bus being full to all if it was full to someone with a wheelchair or ECV was told to me by several bus drivers as part of their training. They thought it was Federal Law. I did find a link to it once, but I lost the link and have never been able to find it again (I think it was a decree agreement rather than a law).
WDW DOES have a precedent in how they were handling guests using ECVs and wheelchairs in the way that they were separating those guests out and preboarding them. So, the way they are trying to do it by having everyone go thru the line is a change.

bookwormde: is this someone with Disney? Because two years in a row I have had an issue with HA rooms at SSR and management seems to be unable to understand the issue or deal with it--and special needs is unaware of how to handle as well.

I am curious what the issues with the HA rooms were. We have stayed at SSR many times and the rooms meet the ADA guidelines for accessible rooms. So, I’m guessing that the issues you had were something that is not addressed in the guidelines??

Do you also know if Disney has any kind of HA committee or group (kinda like the Disney Mom's Panel)? If not--they should. Seriously, someone who is in a wheelchair or uses an ECV at Disney could point out issues with rooms and rides ahead of the fact. For example, at Toy Story ride in Disneyland they designed it to have a set of stairs to walk up after the ride. (Not sure if it's the same at DHS because I haven't ridden it there.) Who thought up that? Now ECV or wheelchair users who are able to walk a short distance but can't climb stairs are FORCED to use the HA cars which can result in a long line. If those stairs were not there they could park their 'wheels' at the entrance and use the regular line. Not very good planning. I have to think it slows down the regular loading when they have to constantly be inserting the HA cars in the queue.

I really think they should have an advisory committee.

They don’t have standing advisory groups, as far as I know.
What they do instead makes more sense.
They conduct Focus groups to get opinions from people with the disability that whatever project they are working on involves. If they had a standing advisory group, they may not have been knowledgeable, for example, about how handheld devices meant for people with visual disabilities (this blog talks about the handheld devices). To evaluate the devices, they used focus groups of people who were blind.
I know that they used similar focus groups of people with mobility related disabilities for things like the boarding area at Space Mountain and the different accessible ride cars.
I knew someone who was working at Jungle Cruise when they were developing the accessible Jungle Cruise boat. I know that they used focus groups of people who use wheelchairs involved pre-design and then also when prototype boats were in development.

In my work, I have been on focus groups about 2-3 times per year. I am an RN, but would not be able to give opinions on some subjects because they are outside my area of experience. So, I can say from experience that a focus group of people with pertinent experience is better than having a permanent advisory group.

DHS’s Toy Story Mania is basically the same as DL. It does have the set of stairs in the ‘regular’ line. It is unfortunate that they designed it in a way that forces guests who can’t go up the flight of stairs to need to bypass the part of the line with stairs. When I first heard about the stairs, I thought it was a stupid idea to have designed the attraction with stairs.
But, the boarding area does allow guests with disabilities to really have all the time they need to board without having to hurry and I really don’t see now how they could have designed it to avoid the stairs in the area they have.

I don’t know if they had room to lay out the lines any different way, but the way they are laid out involves a need to cross over the track. Having the guests with disabilities cross the track would require an elevator (possibly 2) and would be a fire evacuation nightmare. So, it makes more sense to have the ‘regular’ line cross over the track. That does mean some guests need to use the accessible boarding area who would not otherwise need it, but I am not sure how they could work around that and still have the boarding for guests with disabilities be as functional as it is.

 

[bookwormde]

Sue it is great that you are on focus groups since as you say it allows people like yourself with special interest and knowlege to address an identified areas. Typically an advisory council, identifies and agregates issues so that they can be addressed by a committee or focus group, and is best made of of a population of individual with diverse perspective and a stong engagement in the program, area, company or in this case theme park and are willing to be a conduit for the broarder "audiance"

This is how most of the advisory groups that I participate work.

It often takes a year or more to really establish that colaborative relationship and trust but I have found that both "sides" find it very beneficial since issue can be adressesed in a thoughtful way and what should be very minor items like this thread addresses are handles a a matter of course, since allmost always it is that things happen as a matter of unitentional consequences and are easily adressed when everyone understands the impact.

Bookwormde

 

[SueM in MN]

bookwormed, I understand about Advisory Councils. I have been part of my facility's ADA Compliance Advisory Council. I was responding to the suggestion that Disney needs an Advisory Council made up of people with disabilities.

Advisory Councils typically include people with a wide range of expertise (in my case, I serve as a representative of a parent of a person with a disability and also offer guidance as an RN). Other members of our group include an Occupational Therapist, a Facilities Manager, Manager of Hospitality and several consumers. That group would determine if we need a focus group to look at something and our Manager of Hospitality would enlist assistance from our hospital volunteers, many of whom are past patients or family members of past patients with disabilities.
So, if the question was asked, "Do you have an Advisory Council of people with disabilities?" the answer would be no, but that does not mean that we do not have a group which addresses the accessibility needs/concerns.

You may not be aware of a Disney group called CastAble, which has about 400 members (from articles from earlier in the 2000s I’ve read - it may be more now) at WDW and DL. These are people who work for WDW and DL who have disabilities or have interest in disabilities. From what I know, it started out as a sort of mentoring group for CMs with disabilities, but grew into a group with overall impact on services - both CMs and guests.

While this group is not a Disability Advisory Group set up to address accessibility in the parks, they do provide input for that purpose ( they were the group I was talking about in an earlier post). Here are some links to stories about some of the things CastAble members have been involved in:
Scroll down to Inclusive Philosophy Extends to Employees
The CM who performs in a wheelchair at DL’s Aladdin Show is a member of CastAble at DL. She indicates in the article that DL CastAble members have responsibility for accessible accommodations at DL Resort/ attractions. I know that WDW CastAble members gave input to the things I mentioned in my other post and that WDW also solicited feedback from guests with disabilities about those changes (one specific item they got feedback from guests with disabilities was the placement of the ADA test car for Expedition Everest. )
Scroll down to the story about Affinity Groups

You can find many articles about how CastABLE members have assisted with evaluation of accessibility; so I would say this is one of Disney’s major ways of facilitating accessibility. Not just physical disabilities, but they have also done projectws on autism and other non-physical disabilities.
Since I am not a Disney employee, I can’t be a member of CastAble. It sounds like a very active and dynamic group though, which is heavily involved in WDW accessibility from what I have read and from what DH and I have heard from talking to CastAble members while we have been on trips to WDW.
I would encourage any CMs with disabilities or who are interested in accessibility to check into becoming members of CastAble.

Disney also has members in the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions, which does have groups looking at accommodations for disabilities. That organization is one of the 27 organizations/groups that are part of the advisory board to AACOG (link to the ADA general overview page about accessibility of amusement parks) Disney Imagineering is also part of the ADA advisory board.

This does not mean that I necessarily think Disney is doing everything they need to do, but I thought it was important to note what Disney is already doing. My guess is that CastAble members may not ride the buses that go between the parks/resorts, etc. I know the buses did get some new features in the past 2 years that have to do with accessibility - specifically the close captioning and prerecorded announcements on the buses. These are triggered by GPS location of the bus.

 

[toocherie]

I am curious what the issues with the HA rooms were. We have stayed at SSR many times and the rooms meet the ADA guidelines for accessible rooms. So, I’m guessing that the issues you had were something that is not addressed in the guidelines??

The issue is with studios with a roll-in shower. The bed is within 12 inches or so of the main closet--so it is inaccessible to anyone with a mobility device (walker, wheelchair, etc.) Essentially, my Mom (who uses a walker) cannot access the closet.

I will say that at GCV they have 'solved' the problem by flipping the room design so the sofabed is next to the closet and the bed is on the other side of the room. I just wish they would "fix" it at SSR too.

On Toy Story I am even more disappointed--if they did have a focus group I'm sure someone objected to the stairs at the end. Similar to the bus issue, it's not that the accessible area is there--which is great--it's that the wait for HA ends up being much longer in many cases. But, I guess that's the case at many rides. Some of the problem would have been eliminated if they didn't have those darn stairs! Oh well--if that is the most I have to complain about I guess today is a good day!

 

[disney david]

The issue is with studios with a roll-in shower. The bed is within 12 inches or so of the main closet--so it is inaccessible to anyone with a mobility device (walker, wheelchair, etc.) Essentially, my Mom (who uses a walker) cannot access the closet.

I will say that at GCV they have 'solved' the problem by flipping the room design so the sofabed is next to the closet and the bed is on the other side of the room. I just wish they would "fix" it at SSR too.

On Toy Story I am even more disappointed--if they did have a focus group I'm sure someone objected to the stairs at the end. Similar to the bus issue, it's not that the accessible area is there--which is great--it's that the wait for HA ends up being much longer in many cases. But, I guess that's the case at many rides. Some of the problem would have been eliminated if they didn't have those darn stairs! Oh well--if that is the most I have to complain about I guess today is a good day!

Toy story mania in dhs wdw has no stairs if you use the wheel chair loading their ramps to enter and exit. So if you are in a walker you can use that said and never have to go up or down a stair to exit. The only other way dinette could have down toy story mania is have wheel chairs enter through the exit and which would of had all ride beckoned on one track and take longer to load. This way you have more time to load and not everyone watching you. The one in disney land is different que for both then wdw. Yes they could use another ride vehicle to handle wheel chairs but I think with timing of the ride they wouldn't be able to space them out far enough. Th only stairs they have are to enter the regular que so If you can't do stairs you can use the wheel chair loading area. Where helpful cms can help you board the vehicle with your wheel chair or help you transfer to a vehicle if you like with no stairs all level ground. I think if you don't need the car that can handle the wheel chair they can bring another car off the main line or they should not sure if they allow it but once you get there their no stairs to exit so the could once and awhile have some guest that can transfer enter the vehicle on the exit side of the ride. But not sure if they allow that.

 

[jrsmom]

I understand about the Wheelchair and ECV situation but it isn't fair to other disabled persons to have to wait for bus after bus either. My child can not wait for long periods and it will ruin her trip for the rest of the day if a bus is avaialable and just leaves when she could have gotten on it. For this reason we spend the extra money and stay on the monorail. We avoid the buses at all cost. If you are handicap at all the buses are a bad situation, for different reasons.
My child is Autistic and has other neuromuscular issues, related to her Autism, that include significant muscle weakness. She can walk short distances but we still require a large stroller/soon to be push chair. The problem we have when we go is the fold the stroller law. This is very hard on her. She is handicap and requires the stroller for her well being. They should have some sort of a tag for strollers in this situation so the person isn't forced out of their stroller. We have even had a situation when the bus was somewhat full and we had to get on it. No seats were available, so all 3 of us had to stand. She was forced to stand on the bus, since her stroller was folded, with me trying to hold the stroller, our stuff, keep track of her 5 year old sister whom is also autistic but with fewer problems, and keep her from falling. She was about 3 years old at the time. So she stood there barely able to keep her balance, crying her eyes out, and not one adult stood up and let her sit down. Talk about heartless.
Just because she doesn't officially have a wheelchair and she isn't cognitive enough to handle an ECV doesn't make her handicap any less real. There are many families that deal with this problem. I wish they would do something about this. Especially with the ever growing numbers of Autistic children. We still go back because it is the only realistic place to go with 2 autistic kids, but I think something needs to be done.

 

[disney david]

Jrsmom they make strollers that can be used as wheelchairs and if thy have tie down point then you can use it on the bus as a wheel chAir and she can stay in. Second it is federal law that you must give up your seat to someone in need what you do us talk to the driver and let them know thy can help. Or ask the person sitting most of the time if you ask and explain not that you need to but most people will get up. Don't be affair to talk to the bus driver almost all are caring people that will help you out. It also not Disney rule that you have to fold the stroller it is a dot law. I am so sorry to hear no one offered their seats for her that just wrong I would of if I was on the bus.

 

[toocherie]

I Just because she doesn't officially have a wheelchair and she isn't cognitive enough to handle an ECV doesn't make her handicap any less real. There are many families that deal with this problem. I wish they would do something about this. Especially with the ever growing numbers of Autistic children. We still go back because it is the only realistic place to go with 2 autistic kids, but I think something needs to be done.

I thought there was a "stroller as a wheelchair tag" or is that only in the parks and not good for the busses? Is there a reason she can't have a wheelchair (child sized of course) in lieu of a stroller?

 

[Reddy]

I thought there was a "stroller as a wheelchair tag" or is that only in the parks and not good for the busses? Is there a reason she can't have a wheelchair (child sized of course) in lieu of a stroller?

That is only good in the park
for her to stay in the chair - it has to be able to be tied down - strollers aren't designed to handle the pressure of being tied
wheelchairs are heavier so strollers are alot easier on the person pushing them for long periods of time.

I'm really surprised no one gave up a sit for you - I don't know how many times we said we were fine standing & refuse to take a sit (my boys are 13 & 15 austic too but walking isn't a problem for them - crowds are)

 

[bookwormde]

Sue I did not know about the castalbe group, that is neet.

As much as we all want to make WDW and DL better I allway like to point out that they are already doing to better than anyone else.

bookwormde

 

[disney david]

Sue I did not know about the castalbe group, that is neet.

As much as we all want to make WDW and DL better I allway like to point out that they are already doing to better than anyone else.

bookwormde

Thank you are right.

 

[going/again]

Sue I did not know about the castalbe group, that is neet.

As much as we all want to make WDW and DL better I allway like to point out that they are already doing to better than anyone else.

bookwormde

You are right, but some one needs to get CM's all on the same page we just spent 3 weeks there, at Epcot we parked her PC where we had been told to in the past, on our 6th visit this trip to Epcot a CM told us we could not park there but had to get in line, fine but why had we not been told this on 5 previous visits.

MK & HS we parked where she always had in the past, where the back door would be, not once in maybe 12 visits were we told we shoud not be there.

Now the one that really got me was AK on our last visit there after about 10 previous visits (this trip) this CM comes up and says to her [you get here now you cant be there] spoke to her like something he had just stepped in.
so she goes to get in the line and he says [no you dont have to get in line just wait at the side of the line].

so from our experience we got back yesterday, what the hell is the correct policy

 

[bookwormde]

Yes there is still lots of area for improvement.

JRS mon,

If you can find a stroller that is approved for tie down then your child can stay in it just like a full size wheel chair. Most are not an would become a projectile with a child on board in an accident. If a child needs to be seated and all the seats are used up then the same rule would apply, as soon as you were not able to be transported because of the needs of the disability not being met becase all spaces were taken up then the bus should go into bypass, so it is not supposed to be just about wheelchairs but that is by far the most common and best documented.

bookwormde