Response from FTA about new bus loading procedures.

[dclfun]

I had promised to share with everyone the information I received by contacting the FTA about the new bus loading procedures. Basically the response is to contact the DOJ.

Here's what I wrote....

Question: I have a question about bus loading procedures for disabled people. Recently Walt Disney World has changed their procedures and guests using wheelchairs/ECV's must go through the regular queue line with able bodied guests vs. waiting to the side in an accessible queue to be boarded first. Once they have reached the front of the line they are then often asked to wait for the next bus while the bus continues to load able-bodied guests. Meanwhile there can also be double-loading with a bus pulling up next to the original one which cannot take the disabled guests as there is no room to deploy the ramp. As such, guests travelling in wheelchairs or ECV's may wait longer than a non-disabled person, often through multiple buses. Is there any regulation which provides equal access regarding these procedures. Thanks for your help!---Kathy

Answer: Thank you for your inquiry to the Federal Transit Administration about boarding persons with disabilities aboard buses of a private entity not primarily in the business of transportation. These entities are subject to
Subpart E of the US Department of Transportation regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act. As such, at a minimum they are required to ensure that their transportation services, when viewed in their entirety, provide a level of service to persons with disabilities (including wheelchair users) that is equivalent to that provided persons without disabilities. Enforcement jurisdiction of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) of private (DOJ). You may contact DOJ at its ADA information line at 800-514-0301 (voice) or 800-514-0383 (TTY) or on-line at http://www.ada.gov/infoline.htm. We hope this information is of assistance to you.

So, if anyone wants to follow up with the DOJ, I guess this is where to go to voice a complaint about enforcing the ADA.---Kathy

 

[LockShockBarrel]

Interesting. I'll stay tuned.

 

[disney david]

sorry after doing some research you did contact the right people they should of answed you better.


here a form you can fill out and mail to them if you have a complaint.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/civilrights/ada/civil_rights_3889.html

 

[bookwormde]

In regulatory speak, while they did not give you a finding (since that requires a formal complaint) they let you know that if "in the entirety" WDW's process was not providing equivelency then they are non comliant.

The DOJ ADA section is very responsive and often will do some precomplaint investigation and contact if you ask (and this is all that is usually needed to cure deficiancies.

Disney David,

Yes they should have suplied that link, but in practice what is entered there just goes to the ADA DOJ section.

If you are not comfortable with making this contact I would be happy to do it if you believe this is a significant enough issue, although since you have 1st hand (at least until I am back at WDW in July) you would have more impact.

bookwormde

 

[IUTBAM]

Hmmmm...I wasn't aware of this new policy. We just got back from WDW, and while we only used the bus system a few times, we were ALWAYS allowed to board first with our son (in his wheelchair). The drivers were AWESOME!

 

[toocherie]

I think the "when viewed in their entirety," language will be Disney's out. Yes, individual circumstances may arise where ECV/wheelchair users are inconvenienced, but so are non-disabled people (bus too full, bus late, etc.) from time to time. Overall, Disney will argue, they do provide equivalent service.

 

[GrumpyOne]

You need to define "equivalent service". Is equivalent service where one group gets to board before the other or is equivalent service where they provide the ability for each group to be able to board the bus? Don't be surprised if they say that the fact that Disney is providing the ability for wheelchairs and ECVs to board once they reach the head of the line is considered equivalent service.

 

[peemagg]

It would only be considered equivalant service if the next bus was the one they were able to get on. When Disney double loads buses, the next bus is not accessible to those who are in need of the lift. It is only available to the able bodied. That is not "equal" access.

 

[seashoreCM]

Who was saying that when a wheelchair guest is in the regular mainstreamed line and comes up to bat, if the bus cannot load him the driver must close the door and go immediately?

So long as the first bus is in the process of loading a wheelchair guest, the double loading bus can be loading other guests. Okay, all you able bodied guests. Hustle aboard the second bus so as many of you can get on before the first bus is unable to take any more wheelchair guests and both must leave. Vite! Pronto! Wiki!

If the aggrieved guest were to go to Guest Relations and briefly and quietly describe the situation and also ask for an extra fastpass or two (good at Toy Story Mania also), and if GR obliged, everyone would be happy and no one would bother to contact the Department of Justice.

 

[dclfun]

Who was saying that when a wheelchair guest is in the regular mainstreamed line and comes up to bat, if the bus cannot load him the driver must close the door and go immediately?

So long as the first bus is in the process of loading a wheelchair guest, the double loading bus can be loading other guests. Okay, all you able bodied guests. Hustle aboard the second bus so as many of you can get on before the first bus is unable to take any more wheelchair guests and both must leave. Vite! Pronto! Wiki!

If the aggrieved guest were to go to Guest Relations and briefly and quietly describe the situation and also ask for an extra fastpass or two (good at Toy Story Mania also), and if GR obliged, everyone would be happy and no one would bother to contact the Department of Justice.

Why should I be happy? I don't want to spend any of my time on vacation at Guest Relations trying to get a fastpass as there are so few attractions that I can ride, and I can't even think of one that takes fastpasses anyway. Getting a fastpass does not take the place of having provisions for equal access on bus transportation- I personally am not looking for "compensation" or a freebie- I want to be boarded first in a safe manner, as is the law. IMO they are not providing equal access according to those who have written reports about their personal experiences. I'm thinking of Bill Sears report of his recent trip in particular. The stress of going through a queue line and then getting to the front of the line and finding that A. people in the w/c spaces won't move, or, B. the driver determines that they aren't going to ask people to move and asks for me to wait for the next bus because boarding has begun...when I could have been boarded safely before other guests got on the bus isn't something I want to face and if this happens to me I will be contacting the DOJ. I shared this information for people who HAVE had a personal issue to know who to contact. At the end of the email was a link for me to follow if I did want a determination which indeed goes to the DOJ for investigation.---Kathy

 

[SueM in MN]

Why should I be happy? I don't want to spend any of my time on vacation at Guest Relations trying to get a fastpass as there are so few attractions that I can ride, and I can't even think of one that takes fastpasses anyway. Getting a fastpass does not take the place of having provisions for equal access on bus transportation- I personally am not looking for "compensation" or a freebie- I want to be boarded first in a safe manner, as is the law. IMO they are not providing equal access according to those who have written reports about their personal experiences. I'm thinking of Bill Sears report of his recent trip in particular. The stress of going through a queue line and then getting to the front of the line and finding that A. people in the w/c spaces won't move, or, B. the driver determines that they aren't going to ask people to move and asks for me to wait for the next bus because boarding has begun...when I could have been boarded safely before other guests got on the bus isn't something I want to face and if this happens to me I will be contacting the DOJ. I shared this information for people who HAVE had a personal issue to know who to contact. At the end of the email was a link for me to follow if I did want a determination which indeed goes to the DOJ for investigation.---Kathy

I agree.

Although, I agree also that the words "when viewed in their entirety” and “equivalent” leave a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.
If you go ahead with a complaint, I will be very interested to see what they say.

 

[Leajess99]

I honestly did not know that they changed the policy and find that to be wrong. When we were staying at Ft Wilderness a family with an individual in an ECV was at a stop and the driver made the people in the accessible seating area move (made them mad but we all boarded at the same time and I read what it said and explained it to my kids as well and I know the others heard as I was explaining and we sat in seats up the steps) in order to load the EVC. There was a mother carrying a small child with that family and my kids gave up their seat for her and an elderly couple.

I do not understand why Disney would now make ECVs go through the regular line with able bodied guests. Have you tried writing a letter to Disney as well as the President of Disney?? I would seriously do this and request that she or a representative meet you so they can get a better understanding. Maybe they need to ride in an EVC or wheelchair and see how they are treated with the new procedures. That may get them to rethink it.

 

[dclfun]

I agree.

Although, I agree also that the words "when viewed in their entirety” and “equivalent” leave a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.
If you go ahead with a complaint, I will be very interested to see what they say.

Sue- I figure equal access means just that. Bill's experience of waiting through four buses while non-disabled guests walked on in front of him is nowhere near equal nor is double-loading with no ramp access. Also, I've always been told that ADA law *requires* w/c's and ECV's to be boarded first, for safety. I can see the drivers asking all guests coming up to the entrance from the queue line to wait for the next bus or inexperienced ECV drivers feeling as though they have to wait for fear of being unable to safely maneuver. I don't want to be a spectacle either! I don't plan to file a complaint right now as I have not personally experienced issues with the bus system at WDW so it would not be fair to complain based on speculation of future challenges. During my last trip I didn't take the buses at all and actually spent very little time in the parks after my first two days of finding all the attractions that I could potentially enjoy being unavailable due to lack of accessible features. I went to the MK and Epcot during the two days we were at the Poly so I could take the monorail. By the time we got to AKL I'd had enough frustration. I do hope that anyone who DOES experience challenges will contact the DOJ and will complain at Guest Relations so that they will know our feelings and that things aren't working well. If they do work fine for someone, then obviously nothing needs to be done.---Kathy

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue- I figure equal access means just that. Bill's experience of waiting through four buses while non-disabled guests walked on in front of him is nowhere near equal nor is double-loading with no ramp access. Also, I've always been told that ADA law *requires* w/c's and ECV's to be boarded first, for safety. I can see the drivers asking all guests coming up to the entrance from the queue line to wait for the next bus or inexperienced ECV drivers feeling as though they have to wait for fear of being unable to safely maneuver. I don't want to be a spectacle either! I don't plan to file a complaint right now as I have not personally experienced issues with the bus system at WDW so it would not be fair to complain based on speculation of future challenges. During my last trip I didn't take the buses at all and actually spent very little time in the parks after my first two days of finding all the attractions that I could potentially enjoy being unavailable due to lack of accessible features. I went to the MK and Epcot during the two days we were at the Poly so I could take the monorail. By the time we got to AKL I'd had enough frustration. I do hope that anyone who DOES experience challenges will contact the DOJ and will complain at Guest Relations so that they will know our feelings and that things aren't working well. If they do work fine for someone, then obviously nothing needs to be done.---Kathy

i agree totally with you, but think that the lawyers will argue the “equivalent” and “in entirety”.

I personally think the only way to make loading from the main line for ECV and wheelchair users equivalent would be to:
- make every seat on the bus able to be used by a wheelchair or ECV user so that whenever they come to front, a seat will be available for them.
- make the ECV/wheelchair loading occur at the front door and then if the guest with a wheelchair or ECV is not able to load, the bus would be considered full, could load no one else and the wheelchair/ECV user would get into the next bus first.

 

[bookwormde]

This is one area where there is legal precident and very little wiggle room for WDW since they have choosen a particular method of compliance and are now violating it. If it was an isolated incedent then yes they would probably be OK, but the structure of what they are doing inherently crates the issues of loading passengers while leaving disabled passengers behind which is the core standard for non compliance for the methodology they have choosen.

Let us know how your DOJ complaint goes. If it OK with you (dclfun) I am going to call the head of US disability services and compliance and give him a heads up, I am sure he is unaware of what is going on and will not be happy.

Sue, you are 100% correct in the in line loading (non segragated) is by far the best standard since it is completly in compliance with the standard, yet allows for the most passengers to be moved without being out of compliance.

bookwormde

 

[bookwormde]

Kathy,

I talked to Disney and they are investigating the situation, and if you have not already filed they would appriciate if you could wait for a week or so while they try to solve the issue. I expect to get a call next week. He also asked if he needs more specifics if I could supply his number (by PM) to you can, at that point ,so you can call him directly.

Bookwormde

 

[dclfun]

Kathy,

I talked to Disney and they are investigating the situation, and if you have not already filed they would appriciate if you could wait for a week or so while they try to solve the issue. I expect to get a call next week. He also asked if he needs more specifics if I could supply his number (by PM) to you can, at that point ,so you can call him directly.

Bookwormde

Thanks! I was not intending to file a complaint. Reason? I have not personally experienced issues with the new bus loading procedures as during my last trip I didn't take the buses. I don't feel it's right to complain about something that happened to someone else and that I have not yet had issue with. It was Bill who gave us his report- I have just been very concerned as I have safety issues with going through queue lines to start with and as some of us were speculating when we read Bill's thread I wanted to contact the FTA to see if they knew whether or not WDW's new policy was in compliance.---Kathy

 

[bookwormde]

Every good, I will dig back and find that thread, and try to Pm him if needed.

bookwormde

 

[BillSears]

Bookwormde,

I'm not sure if you saw this old thread of mine but this was one of the threads that concerned the bus problems.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583052

Hopefully it'll give you some more ammunition when talking to the Disney people.

I know when I came back from that trip I was pretty upset. But as time passes I tend to forget the bad things about a trip and focus on the good things. The bad experience happened in October 2010 and then I visited again in December 2010. In December things were better at EPCOT but only because I avoided the park closing times. Basically if you want a good bus expereince then don't stay for the fireworks.

 

[toocherie]

This is one area where there is legal precident and very little wiggle room for WDW since they have choosen a particular method of compliance and are now violating it. If it was an isolated incedent then yes they would probably be OK, but the structure of what they are doing inherently crates the issues of loading passengers while leaving disabled passengers behind which is the core standard for non compliance for the methodology they have choosen.

bookwormde: do you have a legal citation supporting the above-referenced statement? I know that in the past Sue has tried to find the regulation or law that supports the concept that if a HA passenger can't load the bus is considered "full" and can't load anyone else, but I don't think she found it. I would like to start a file so would appreciate the citations. Thanks!