No Appetizers for Kids on DDP!

[gigi1313]

I fully understand it is per person, but I can almost guarantee you that these guys don't serve 20 tables per shift. I'm also not debating whether they are well-compensated...I was trying to figure out how they were getting $120k to $180k based on fixed tips ($120k is 50% more than the $80k in your example).

I didn't realize the "Disney-owned" dinstinction was significant until I read the other post. I also didn't realize that the park restaurants weren't Disney-owned.

i beg to differ... as a former waitress (not for disney) i easily served 20 tables in a shift on a busy night (and every night is busy in wdw!)... figure a shift is 6 hours long... each table turns over at least 4 times (1.5 hrs/party on average) and each server has 6 tables in his/her section... bingo! 24 tables per shift... and i think that's being conservative... i'd wager that at a busy wdw restaurant, the turnover is higher... plus, a lot of the tables are for more than my earlier example of 4 guests each... and some shifts are longer than 6 hours...

but let's use the example of 4 guests/table (2 adults/1 jr/1 child) multiplied by 18% multiplied by 24 tables for the night, multipled by 250 nights worked per year... that's $26 x 3 + $7 = 85 x .18 = $15.30 x 24 = $367.20 x 250 = $91,800 and that does not include base pay ($2.50/hour -- although i think it's higher now x 8 hours/shift x 5 shifts/week x 50 weeks/year) of at least $5,000 (up to $96,800) *and* don't forget for the restauants that serve alcohol as well as those that serve diners that are not on the dining plan and/or are on the plan and leave additional gratuity... so, add all that together and i can see the $120,000/year that you speak of...

 

[gigi1313]

gigi1313--Thanks for the posts. Sometimes another person can word something better, for whatever reason formernyer can follow your posts but misses parts of mine. I probably need to better job wording them.

you're welcomed
i see the wisdom and knowledge in your words

 

[DMRick]

... so, add all that together and i can see the $120,000/year that you speak of...

My mom definately worked at the wrong restaurant when she brought us kids up!

 

[pandora174]

Just want to add my two cents: I will be using the Dining plan in September (yup it is "free" but we are paying rack rate so not sure if it is "really" free), but I want to know exactly what the dining plan does and does not include. Here is why: my 7 year old LOVES to act like her older brothers (13 and 15) and she loves different foods (sushi, appetizers,etc). She would be so excited to have an appetizer, even a small little salad or apple sauce, etc. It would be nice to have consistent rules and ways of doing things. One, to let her know her options and two to budget our expenses if we have to pay for something that is not included. For instance, if only the chocolate moose is offered and she does not like that I might want to pay out of pocket for her dessert, etc. It is only fair that the rules be clear and understandable, in my opinion. Yes, the dining plan is a great deal but remember the extra costs involved with getting it: rack rate, mandatory ticket purchase, etc. I am not complaining but sometimes people think it is a gift from disney. It is a perk that they make up for in other ways. (Again, I am not complaining!!

I totally agree !!! Yes my trip in Sept has free dining BUT I am paying rack rate & tickets so while a good deal I feel I should get what the plan offers & for it to be consistent. My DS will be 4 & he loves to pick at everything. So yes he will eat his appetizer, meal & dessert. Maybe not all but he likes to eat a litttle of everything.

 

[formernyer]

i beg to differ... as a former waitress (not for disney) i easily served 20 tables in a shift on a busy night (and every night is busy in wdw!)... figure a shift is 6 hours long... each table turns over at least 4 times (1.5 hrs/party on average) and each server has 6 tables in his/her section... bingo! 24 tables per shift... and i think that's being conservative... i'd wager that at a busy wdw restaurant, the turnover is higher... plus, a lot of the tables are for more than my earlier example of 4 guests each... and some shifts are longer than 6 hours...

but let's use the example of 4 guests/table (2 adults/1 jr/1 child) multiplied by 18% multiplied by 24 tables for the night, multipled by 250 nights worked per year... that's $26 x 3 + $7 = 85 x .18 = $15.30 x 24 = $367.20 x 250 = $91,800 and that does not include base pay ($2.50/hour -- although i think it's higher now x 8 hours/shift x 5 shifts/week x 50 weeks/year) of at least $5,000 (up to $96,800) *and* don't forget for the restauants that serve alcohol as well as those that serve diners that are not on the dining plan and/or are on the plan and leave additional gratuity... so, add all that together and i can see the $120,000/year that you speak of...

actually, i'm not surprised to see you saying this. several days ago there was a fairly heated discussion about how much servers at disney make. i estimated that the servers were working about 4 tables at all times and i pretty much attacked by everyone. they claimed that shift set up, time between tables, etc. added up and there was no way that a server could average 4 tables at a time. i ultimately decided that since nobody else agreed with me, i must be wrong.

 

[gigi1313]

i'm sorry i missed that discussion...

 

[kaytieeldr]

It's amazing how if Disney doesn't make their wording crystal clear in the DDP literature, what a big deal some make of it...trying to squeeze all they can out something that's already a GREAT deal.
Here's hoping Disney makes everything crystal clear so there is NO room for doubt about all of their policies people enjoy abusing (under 3 free, refillable mugs, 5 to a room).

Okay, let's reason this out (you all remember logic from high school math, right? Or is it sets/subsets? Or wait, no - it's "if/then")
Children 3 to 9 must order from the childrens menu where available
IF given childrens menu lists/includes/offers/provides NO appetizers
THEN there are no appetizers available to be ordered by Guests in the specified age group.
Now, should a particular restaurant or even a number of restaurants or even a majority of restaurants CHOOSE to allow children in the 3 - 9 age group to order appetizers from the regular menu, great. But they're no obligated to do that.

The saving and paying OOP is only cheating in the eyes of the DIS morality police. Disney does not make a distinction.
Back to your regularly scheduled argument now.....

Thank you. There are plenty of OTHER threads devoted to this standard argument

My kid would....when we order appetizers and she is offered the option at some restaurants and not at others, it becomes confusing.

Well, but why? Not everything is the same everywhere. Everything Pop considers any dessert to be included on the Dining Plan; Tangierine Cafe limits you to a piece of baklava. Fast food chain KFC doesn't sell burgers, but McDonald's sells chicken sandwiches AND burgers. TGIFriday's sells adult beverages; Denny's most adult beverage is coffee. Applebee's has Weight Watchers items on its menu, complete with points; Chili's doesn't. The Dunkin Donuts where I stop most mornings charges me extra for a styrofoam cup for my cold drink, while the one closer to work gives it to me free. Not EVERY restaurant has all the same policies or provides all the same options as every other restaurant.

 

[beattyfamily]

Okay, let's reason this out (you all remember logic from high school math, right? Or is it sets/subsets? Or wait, no - it's "if/then")
Children 3 to 9 must order from the childrens menu where available
IF given childrens menu lists/includes/offers/provides NO appetizers
THEN there are no appetizers available to be ordered by Guests in the specified age group.

Now, should a particular restaurant or even a number of restaurants or even a majority of restaurants CHOOSE to allow children in the 3 - 9 age group to order appetizers from the regular menu, great. But they're no obligated to do that.

I agree...so did you quote me because you are agree with me or disagree?

 

[formernyer]

Okay, let's reason this out (you all remember logic from high school math, right? Or is it sets/subsets? Or wait, no - it's "if/then")
Children 3 to 9 must order from the childrens menu where available
IF given childrens menu lists/includes/offers/provides NO appetizers
THEN there are no appetizers available to be ordered by Guests in the specified age group.

I'll repeat for about the 50th time, Disney is not clear about this in the literature. I'll use your high school math logic if that's what makes things clearer for you.

IF Disney defines a TS credit as --One table-service meal (including appetizer, entree, dessert, or full buffet, non-alcoholic beverage, and gratuity/service charge; dessert not available at breakfast) AND Disney states that this is the definition of what each person (not "adult") is to receive, THEN each person, whether that person be a child or adult, is entitled to each of the four components of that credit (appetizer, entree, drink, dessert).

The Disney literature goes on to state that kid's must eat off of the children's menu IF ONE IS AVAILABLE I take this to mean that kids are required to order any of the four components that are listed on the kid's menu from that menu. If the component is not listed on that menu, then that component should be allowed from the adult menu. So if an appetizer is listed on the children's menu, the child must order from those selections; however, if none are listed, then the appetizer fails the IF ONE IS AVAILABLE test and should be allowed from the adult menu. Most of the children's menus don't list beverages. Does this mean that kids shouldn't drink either?

Disney VERY CLEARLY defined a TS credit to include an appetizer and dessert for each person. If Disney didn't want children to have appetizers, they would have stated so in the literature.

None of you answered my question before...Why not just offer a kid's menu with nothing on it but soft drinks? By your logic, the kids would be entitled to a soft drink, but no appetizer, entree, or dessert. Your argument makes no sense and is clearly not the spirit and intent of the DDP.

And I'll repreat that I'm not trying to scam restaurants out of appetizers for kids, nor do I think kids should be entitled to an adult-sized appetizer. I do, however, think that they are entitled to SOME sort of appetizer because it clearly states in the literature that it is included.

 

[beattyfamily]

I'll repeat for about the 50th time, Disney is not clear about this in the literature. I'll use your high school math logic if that's what makes things clearer for you.

IF Disney defines a TS credit as --One table-service meal (including appetizer, entree, dessert, or full buffet, non-alcoholic beverage, and gratuity/service charge; dessert not available at breakfast) AND Disney states that this is the definition of what each person (not "adult") is to receive, THEN each person, whether that person be a child or adult, is entitled to each of the four components of that credit (appetizer, entree, drink, dessert).

The Disney literature goes on to state that kid's must eat off of the children's menu IF ONE IS AVAILABLE I take this to mean that kids are required to order any of the four components that are listed on the kid's menu from that menu. If the component is not listed on that menu, then that component should be allowed from the adult menu. So if an appetizer is listed on the children's menu, the child must order from those selections; however, if none are listed, then the appetizer fails the IF ONE IS AVAILABLE test and should be allowed from the adult menu. Most of the children's menus don't list beverages. Does this mean that kids shouldn't drink either?

Disney VERY CLEARLY defined a TS credit to include an appetizer and dessert for each person. If Disney didn't want children to have appetizers, they would have stated so in the literature.

None of you answered my question before...Why not just offer a kid's menu with nothing on it but soft drinks? By your logic, the kids would be entitled to a soft drink, but no appetizer, entree, or dessert. Your argument makes no sense and is clearly not the spirit and intent of the DDP.

And I'll repreat that I'm not trying to scam restaurants out of appetizers for kids, nor do I think kids should be entitled to an adult-sized appetizer. I do, however, think that they are entitled to SOME sort of appetizer because it clearly states in the literature that it is included.

Wow, for a newbie, you sure have an attitude. We don't need it made clearer for us by you but thanks. Why can't you get that this is YOUR opinion and YOUR perception of what the literature says. Not everyone agrees with you no matter how many times you post it.

I can't believe how many people are making such a big deal out of something so minor, IMHO.

I do agree, though, that Disney should make ALL their policies that people seem to have a problem with much clearer (dining plan, under 3 free, 5 to a room, refillable mug etc...).

 

[gigi1313]

The Disney literature goes on to state that kid's must eat off of the children's menu IF ONE IS AVAILABLE I take this to mean that kids are required to order any of the four components that are listed on the kid's menu from that menu. .

and i take this to mean *if* a children's menu is available, *then* children are restricted to the children's menu regardless of what "components" it contains! so, using your analogy of "if the children's menu only offered soft drinks" then yes, children would only get soft drinks (and some btw, would be quite happy with that!)

Most of the children's menus don't list beverages. Does this mean that kids shouldn't drink either?.

actually, i think most children's menus *do* list beverages... just for fun, i checked two kids' menus quickly over at allearsnet (shutters at CBR and sci-fi at mgm) and both had beverages listed...

Disney VERY CLEARLY defined a TS credit to include an appetizer and dessert for each person. If Disney didn't want children to have appetizers, they would have stated so in the literature.

and disney also very clearly defined that children 3-9 are to order from a child's menu where available... not order from both adult and children's menu... not order two components from each menu... but rather, it was like the "fine print" or the disclaimer... it comes after the original statement thereby restricting and/or putting limits that which came before... just like putting a 'but' in a sentence, it negates all that comes before it!

None of you answered my question before...Why not just offer a kid's menu with nothing on it but soft drinks? By your logic, the kids would be entitled to a soft drink, but no appetizer, entree, or dessert. Your argument makes no sense and is clearly not the spirit and intent of the DDP..

i'll answer your question... because it's an asinine statement which is completely ridiculous and irrelevant and certainly not realistic... it's not an apples to apples comparison and it's not "logical" at all there, i said it!

personally, i don't care if your or any other family gets appetizers for their children... we were pleasantly surprised when we had a server or two encourage us to order them for our child and we did accept them... but like all "pixie dust" it's better to expect nothing and be happily surprised than to go w/great expectations whether it be for adult appys for kids or towel animals or free room upgrade or whatever and be disappointed...

in addition, having lived thru two trips on the DDP, you are provided with plenty of food each day that you don't "need" an extra appy by any stretch of the stomach or imagination

 

[formernyer]

actually, i think most children's menus *do* list beverages... just for fun, i checked two kids' menus quickly over at allearsnet (shutters at CBR and sci-fi at mgm) and both had beverages listed...

I certainly won't waste my time pulling up every kid's menu to check, but I just pulled up 7 random kid's menus and 6 did not list drinks.

 

[gigi1313]

that's it? your only comment is on what menus have beverages listed... i spent an hour on my post responding to your post and all i get is that! LOL! (totally just kidding!)

 

[disneymom3]

Five pages of arguing. Good grief. I am sure this was not the intent of the OP. I would like to suggest that anyone who has a problem with the interpretation of the plan call Disney dining and ask them. If you are not happy with the answer, then express your displeasure to DISNEY. Griping at a bunch of people on the DIS is not going to get you anywhere.

 

[deelam]

Could someone give me the facts on the kid's meals.

1. Can kid's get a desert with lunch

2. Can kid's get Apps with dinner only if kid's apps are listed on the menu.

3. Can kid's get any desert with dinner, or do they have to get a kid's desert if it's listed. If no kid's desert is listed, can they get an adult desert.

My kids will want an adult type desert as opposed to a scoop of ice cream type kid's desert.

 

[formernyer]

Could someone give me the facts on the kid's meals.

1. Can kid's get a desert with lunch

2. Can kid's get Apps with dinner only if kid's apps are listed on the menu.

3. Can kid's get any desert with dinner, or do they have to get a kid's desert if it's listed. If no kid's desert is listed, can they get an adult desert.

My kids will want an adult type desert as opposed to a scoop of ice cream type kid's desert.

Some unrelated info regarding "Can kid's get desert..." can be found in this thread:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1083810

Sorry, couldn't resist

And also at your post since I'm assuming it was sarcastic.

 

[pplasky]

Five pages of arguing. Good grief. I am sure this was not the intent of the OP. I would like to suggest that anyone who has a problem with the interpretation of the plan call Disney dining and ask them. If you are not happy with the answer, then express your displeasure to DISNEY. Griping at a bunch of people on the DIS is not going to get you anywhere.

I agree. I've been checking this thread and people are really starting to get nasty about whether or not their opinions are the correct ones. The interpretation of the brochure is obviously unclear due to so many opposite opinions. Some of us are just trying to get info on where our children will be able to get apps and where they won't and are happy when people post their experiences.

 

[Lewisc]

I agree. I've been checking this thread and people are really starting to get nasty about whether or not their opinions are the correct ones. The interpretation of the brochure is obviously unclear due to so many opposite opinions. Some of us are just trying to get info on where our children will be able to get apps and where they won't and are happy when people post their experiences.

It's really not a matter of the "correct" interpretation but rather how is the plan being interpreted by the restaurants. Many of the opposite opinions come from posters who confused a servers generosity with a plan requirement. If I was a restaurant manager I'd have a big can of fruit salad and lettuce for kids appetizers. I'm sure the expense to wash the plate would be more than the cost of the food.

There is at least one CS restaurant that doesn't offer any desserts yet we don't see people claiming they should be allowed to get an extra dessert somewhere else. Most of us realize we're limited to what's on the menu.

You should plan on only getting an appetizer if there is one on the children's menu and be happy if a CM makes an exception.

I'd expect a kids menu to offer a drink, it never occurred to me that a mac cheese dinner is suppose to come with an appetizer.

I suspect some of the issue guests are having is the difference of ages. A 4 year old may be happy with just the mac/cheese but a 9 year old might be looking for a smaller version of an adult meal.

Some guests, but not the people posting in this thread, are looking to get extra adult appetizers to help share credits or to get an extra shrimp cocktail.

 

[formernyer]

There is at least one CS restaurant that doesn't offer any desserts yet we don't see people claiming they should be allowed to get an extra dessert somewhere else. Most of us realize we're limited to what's on the menu.

Actually, I disagree with this place's policy as much, if not more, than the kids' appetizer issue. At least with the kids' appetizers we might have different interpretations of the literature, but we'll all agree it's ambiguous.

I'm assuming that you're talking about the turkey leg CS? This restaurant is flat out taking advantage of Disney's plan. The plan clearly states that a CS meal comprises an entree/combo meal, dessert, and non-alcoholic beverage. If a restaurant agrees to accept credits, then it should also be agreeing to sell all of the items which go with the meal. They're basically cheating the customer out of a dessert, while still accepting the full CS credit reimbursement from Disney.

I have a good idea of why Disney isn't cracking down on this place...
(1) the restaurant would claim that the bag of chips is dessert and not a side item with the turkey leg
(2) a lot of people want to eat turkey legs and this is really the only place where you can get them on the DDP; therefore, people are willing to take whatever they can get without making a fuss.

I still think it's taking advantage of the plan and I think Disney should force the place to at least carry a supply of cookies or something as the DDP dessert.

 

[disneymom3]

How are they cheating the customer? The customer is making a CHOICE to use their credit there. No one is saying they HAVE to. Maybe some people make that choice knowing that they wouldn't eat the dessert anyway but really wanting a turkey leg and not wanting to pay OOP for it.