Leverage: anyone considering SSR purchase:

[lenshanem]

Thanks again Maria.

At this point it doesn't matter. I was up with my girls last night with a little virus and I gave all this some thought. This thread was definitely not something I wanted or should have got myself so emotionally involved with. It has been very ugly. And I am mad at myself for continuing to come back to it. Surprisingly no moderators closed this thread. So I'm unsubscribing to it and removing myself from it - something I should have done back on about page two I think?

 

[DrTomorrow]

[...] The rest of us will just try to stay out of your way. [...]

Regardless of your opinion, please do not presume to speak for me or anyone else.

And for the record, I feel that Shan (if you're going to insult someone, TCPluto, at least get her name right - either her their full user name, or take a moment to read her signature) is one of the spiffier DIS poster, and not deserving of the unkind words she's been getting.

[...] Karma can be tough that way.

For everyone....

To TCPluto, I wish only Pixie Dust and Sunshine !

 

[Mike]

Do we still have moderators?

 

[sarhenty]

this thread just got its second wind...

 

[Divamomto3]

I must have fallen asleep and woken up on the old Debate Board.

I believe that the solution is to check in early. Period. That will give you the opportunity to get the room with the things you NEED.

I am absolutely apalled that a person who does not want to vacation for a week without a tub and without low countertops and low beds is classified as someone who has no compassion for the disabled. If that were absolutely all that was available, well then that's all that's available. But if you get there early and you can ask nicely and I guess politically correctly to be moved to a room that better suits your needs, what's wrong with that? Suddenly the best DVC'ers are the Martyr DVC'ers who will take absolutely any old room that 's thrown at them. Take one for the team or get out!! There's a me, me, me attitude b/c someone wants to keep their child safe or free from illness? Is this really the same as demanding the 3rd room from the elevator on the second floor facing the north side of the building? Oh and the room better have every plate, can opener, and pan that is promised on the inventory list and there better not be a dust bunny anywhere and towel animals would be nice too or I'm calling Michael Eisner. There are MULTITUDES of posters like that all over the DISBoards...not just the DVC board. Parents who want their children to be able to breathe or bathe in a tub are lumped in the same class as people who want the 4th room on the Arushka Savannah on the highest floor with bunk beds and maybe you can upgrade me to concierge because it's my stepbrother's birthday and I faxed you my requests 17 times before check in????

I envy the 80,000 DVC owners that don't know anything about this board.

 

[TCPluto]

The mob is all here, or very nearly. If we could just get one more to weigh in....

At first I found it ironic. The dirty dozen (ok, 3-4) attacks on this board in public. Dozens repy privately with support, for both the position and the dirty attacks they have read. But I now understand that if they post it here, they too will be attacked. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Dr T., I do not presume to speak for you, but do echo many who have responded to me. If attacking my motives and stalking my posts is "spiffy", I don't want to be around any "spiffy" people.

Maria, isn't it ironic how you single me out, and not others who you've joined together with?

 

[sjdisneywedding]

The mob is all here, or very nearly. If we could just get one more to weigh in....

At first I found it ironic. The dirty dozen (ok, 3-4) attacks on this board in public. Dozens repy privately with support, for both the position and the dirty attacks they have read. But I now understand that if they post it here, they too will be attacked. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Dr T., I do not presume to speak for you, but do echo many who have responded to me. If attacking my motives and stalking my posts is "spiffy", I don't want to be around any "spiffy" people.

Maria, isn't it ironic how you single me out, and not others who you've joined together with?

nope didnt think so, still not one ounce of information regarding the debate itself.

its absolutely amazing, do you even read the posts? or do you just wait to see if a particular person repsonded and then try to pick an arguement with them

ok in case you didnt know as of yet
my stance is that the current reservation system be altered in some way shape or form to better accomodate those who may not be able to stay in a HA room(yep I said it, I hope I dont get struck down) or a smoking room.

I believe altering it to a system where these particular requests can be guarenteed would benefit many dvc members. In addition, it would allow every dvc member to know exactly which type of room they are getting before they leave home for their relaxing, enjoyable vacation.(minus those of course who will be effected by an unfortunate circumstance such that their pre-reserved room will be out of service for some reseason)

so what exactly are your thoughts on this subject?

 

[SoCalKDG]

From the standpoint of logic (as a discipline), they are the same. It is like saying, "I don't like drunk drivers."

Whether something was created with a specific population in mind has no bearing on this fact.

So based on what you are saying then "I don't like women, blacks, whites, etc. is acceptable as well". Thus wouldn't harm anyone? I don't agree Deep-Thots. They would cause problems. Like or disliking vanilla ice cream, handicap rooms, or a certain person are all on different levels of the emotional impact that they could carry.

 

[SoCalKDG]

but just for sake of debate, people do have health type issues associated with HA rooms( I believe one of the docs posted in another thread about not being able to use HA type beds due to a bad back, while not as serious as asthema attacks it could lead to problems and a lousy vacation.)

Who is to say that one bed is better than another? Certain backs may need a specific hardness or softness? I like a harder bed, my wife likes a softer bed. We each get back pain if we don't sleep on our preferred bed(we add egg crate to her side at home). While we can all agree cigarette smoke isn't good for you ( we can all agree on that, right ) my bad back or your bad back may not like the beds or pullouts at any hotel.

Do the people in this discussion feel that a smoking room is the same inconvenience as a HA room? If your choice was smoking room or HA room, which do you take?

 

[SoCalKDG]

ok in case you didnt know as of yet
my stance is that the current reservation system be altered in some way shape or form to better accomodate those who may not be able to stay in a HA room(yep I said it, I hope I dont get struck down) or a smoking room.

I believe altering it to a system where these particular requests can be guarenteed would benefit many dvc members. In addition, it would allow every dvc member to know exactly which type of room they are getting before they leave home for their relaxing, enjoyable vacation.(minus those of course who will be effected by an unfortunate circumstance such that their pre-reserved room will be out of service for some reseason)

so what exactly are your thoughts on this subject?

I agree that any change an minimal charge that improves the reservation process would be a great benefit. The more detail that you can know ahead of time about your room the better.

You might even see people switching resorts in order to get specific rooms, thus alleviating some of the booking pressures at the smaller resorts.

 

[Deep-Thots]

So based on what you are saying then "I don't like women, blacks, whites, etc. is acceptable as well". Thus wouldn't harm anyone? I don't agree Deep-Thots. They would cause problems. Like or disliking vanilla ice cream, handicap rooms, or a certain person are all on different levels of the emotional impact that they could carry.

Groan. I am guessing you have never taken a course in moral philosophy or logic.

Just to give an example of what I have seen take place in this thread, from the standpoint of logic:

Pooh Bear does not like thistles and says so.
Thistles are nutrionally necessary for Eeyore's survival.
THEREFORE, it follows that because Pooh Bear does not like thistles and says so, he hates Eeyore.

It's ridiculous.

 

[SoCalKDG]

Groan. I am guessing you have never taken a course in moral philosophy or logic.

Just to give an example of what I have seen take place in this thread, from the standpoint of logic:

Pooh Bear does not like thistles and says so.
Thistles are nutrionally necessary for Eeyore's survival.
THEREFORE, it follows that because Pooh Bear does not like thistles and says so, he hates Eeyore.

It's ridiculous.

Don't worry, I've taken a couple logic classes, so I'm following along. My point was that logic and emotion are too different things. Emotion doesn't always make sense. So no matter how logical a person thinks they are being, there is the chance that it may affect someone emotionally.

 

[mark&sue]

I totally agree with Divamomto 3 and Deep-Thots. I may be a selfish cow but I love to have a bath. I look forward to it every night when I get home from work. It is my way of relaxing and it is one of my favourite things to do after a day at the theme parks and like to pamper myself before I go out at night.

I cannot check in earlier as the flight times from the uk do not allow this.

Just because I would prefer to have a bath for my two week vacation does not mean that I do not have every sympathy for handicaped people. I went out with someone who was in a wheelchair and understand all their problems but I still wanted a bath each night. It used to drive me mad everytime someone parked in a handicaped space and we had to negotiate a marathon just to get from one place to another. My partner did not think I was wicked because I desired to have a bath. I value my legs and arms and everytime I walk up the stairs to do a chore for my daughter or husband or at when I am at work I thank god that I do have legs that work and I really appreciate it. That said I still prefer to have a bath and for my £20,000 and our £1,600 flights I would still would prefer to have a bath.

I can go without the cooking facilities and the fridge but would prefer to have a bath tub. I may be unusual but it does not mean I do not have great empathy toward hanicaped people and their families. My only crime is that I prefer to have a bath.

I am sorry if this offends anybody and it could be that I have a problem liking baths so much. All of my friends think I am mad because I like going to WDW so much. I guess many of us suffer from that!!!!!



Susan

P.S. It is freezing in London at the moment and I wish I was in WDW!

 

[DrTomorrow]

[...]Dr T., I do not presume to speak for you, but do echo many who have responded to me. [...]

Then your use of the phrase "The rest of us" was clearly incorrect. Perhaps "Those who side with me but are afraid to voice an opinion"

Oh well, TCPluto, I guess we'll just have to meet at WDW where I can give you a big hug and a big kiss to turn that !

ITA, Divamomto3 - this harkens back to the good old days of the DB....

 

[ColoradoBelle1]

Ken:
you are right that logic and emotion are two separate things. And that no one can help the emotions he feels at any given time.However, Kim was trying to show how LOGICALLY, you can't get from point A to point C without an emotional leap of logic.

I believe you would agree that the only one who knows what emotional baggage he is carrying is the individual carrying it. And that individual is responsible for his own emotional baggage.

There wouldn't be many books in our libraries if the authors not only had to write about their stories but also take into account every single reader's personal history, pain, suffering. It would be impossible.

On these forums, we post our views, ask for information, share stories. For the most part, if we offend, it is unintentional.

But if we are in our emotional mindset and feel offended by a post, there is a sound recipe for communicating that effectively and it goes like this:

"I don't like thistles".
"Your comment really hurt me!...My child was saved by a bed of thistles"
....inviting a compassionate response
Which allows:.
Oh I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend....so thistles saved your child! Wow. That's great. Will you share your story?"

However, what happened here, and I think it started with post #29, was that someone inadvertently triggered an emotional response in TCPluto.
TC didn't have 'the recipe' or was too emotionally overwhelmed to use it.
Instead of saying 'hey that statement didn't sit well with me and here's why',
he made some assumptions, and began generalizing, accusing and 'going on the attack'...which doesn't invite the empathetic response he was looking for.
TC isn't the only one that does this...we all do it occassionally. On this thread, it was TC.

So, the first part of the recipe was out of whack and TC didn't get what he hoped for...a response to his deep feelings about sensitivity to handicapped children. But of course, he never communicated his concerns and we weren't mind readers. Instead, some people felt attacked and responded emotionally thus:
'Hey, it hurt me when you said that most of us were lying when we asked for a medical nonsmoking...my child is really affected by smoke in a life/death way. again: inviting an empathetic response and apology"

We could have gotten back to the recipe, had TC responded with "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I shouldn't have implied 'most, all, you all' did something wrong...and should have mentioned that ONE of my friends had used a medical diagnosis as an excuse....I can see where I hurt you."
But TC felt, much as a child would in this situation, that he didn't MEAN to say everyone on this post had done something wrong so why should he have to apology...he wanted an apology too for something that happened to him.

So, even tho there were some I'm sorry BUTs, there wasn't any real empathy and there were new people coming in in the middle trying to throw in their few cents and/or support (which I'm not saying is wrong) and there were a few people who I think were enjoying and manipulating this too (and that I think is really wrong) BUT here we are 20 pages later.
____________
TC IM'd me, among others. After his opening round of accusations and attack, he then let me know that he was cruelly hurt by post #285 (Deb and Bill's soap opera ad). Tho he had once felt Deb and Bill had been his champions in his 'war'... that now they were lumped in with the rest of us, as attacking him. I IM'd TC back and told him that I felt he was carrying around a lot of emotional hurt and pain and that I understood he felt very ganged up on at this point.
I asked him if he could trust me enought to accept my offer of help by going back to post #29 with him privately to help him learn how to write his words to more effectively communicate his sensitivity and to get what he needed from his posting...a little empathy. He declined, as is his right. I'm sorry about that. I invited him to close this thread (page 20) but he said he didn't feel comfortable with that idea.

It might help us all to look at what started the downward spiral on this thread.
Not using logic as outlined by Kim.
Not being accountable for our own emotional baggage, expecting others to read our minds.
Not (some of us) being able to say "I'm sorry" without the but.

I don't believe that this all happened because both 'sides' wanted to win at all costs. I think, more along the lines of Kim, that there really aren't any 'sides' to this thread....I like thistles PERIOD...what other SIDE to that is there? That I don't like thistles? Cause your liking beans and hot dogs or not liking thistles is a whole new thread, unrelated to this one. I don't believe that this happened because we can't have anyone disagree with our own opinion. I like thistles and I may or may not care whether you like thistles. If you want to tell me about how you feel on thistles...great. Please don't assume that because I don't like thistles that I also don't like hot dogs cause if I want you to know how i feel about hot dogs, it is my choice to tell you or not. BEFORE post #29...there were people saying that because I liked thistels that I was picky. Name calling. Not right. I just like thistles and you can ask me to explain why, you can try to nudge me into liking them by extolling all their virtues, but if, in the end, I still don't like thistles...I'm allowed to not like thistles and no one should try to shame or guilt me because I do. (and I shouldnt' allow myself to be shamed or guilted because I do...and that is yet another issue at play in this thread aka personal accountability.)
____
THere will always be someone who feels hurt or slighted when you state any opinion. And that person is responsible for his feelings and for communicating his feelings so that it invites an empathetic response. It is an adult, a caring, a win/win way to communicate that needs to be practiced.
A few people posting here need a little more practice. Heck, we all probably need a little... a few people need a lot of practice.

It isn't enough to SAY you will take the high road....you really have to walk the high walk (highway?).

It's my opinion that the people here who have hurt, offended, assused, attacked the LEAST, have been the ones who have tried to take that high road. Sometimes, it just doesn't turn out the way we hope.
_____________
Maybe we can all agree that we are grown ups and don't need a moderator to close this thread for us....maybe we can agree to do it ourselves.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Maria, isn't it ironic how you single me out, and not others who you've joined together with?

TCPluto.....very sorry to sound snide here, but you lost me at "hello" pretty much. As the saying goes : you catch alot more bees with honey...... I was just going to let the whole thing drop, but YOU chose to lump the group of us that don't agree with you together and post statements today such as :

The insensitive, compassionless,self centered, rude, stalking few have identified themselves for who they really are. They are exactly the type of people we all could do without. Fortunately, while they are a loud and active group, their numbers are very small. While they should be ashamed, I doubt they are.

and....

Shan states : Post #309:I apologize for making the wrong assumption.

Not the same as apologizing for being so blackhearted, mean spirited, and hurtful. But then again, how could someone sincerely apologize for being an inconsiderate, mean spirited stalker?

Shan apologized a couple of times, yet you still continued to make statements like the "gang" of us (to coin your phrase) are a bunch of morally corrupt people for not wanting smoking or HA rooms. THIS is why I singled you out I suppose. I feel you pretty much came back with attacks at a group of us ?
HA or Non-smoking : It's just not our preference---doesn't suit our families needs as well----sure I'd accept one, but I wouldn't make a request for one. That's all alot of us have been saying. Doesn't mean we're against the handicapped or smokers.
But you continue with biting remarks (despite apologies and requests to shake hands....move on).

To address this statement.....

My whole intent in engaging in this thread was to raise awareness of how someones words, spoken at the front desk at check in or written on a bulletin board, can have a secondary and unintended negative message for someone within earshot.

Had you gone about this in an entirely different way instead of making people out to be selfish and mean-spirited and without compassion (all your statements), you would have had me in your court. It's the way you make us all out like we're all against those with disabilities that I find illogical.

I now firmly believe that her intent is to hurt others. She is truly a black hearted person, when you get right down to her core.

This was never Shan's "intent".
She simply saw things a little different from you......she saw things from her family's point of view. There was never anything morally wrong with how she felt (or the rest of us gang). Many of us saw your side, and deep down still do as far as the handicapped issue goes. But at this point, the thread has gotten so ugly that you've alienated me and some others from the core point you were trying to make because we're now forced into a situation where we have to defend our moral character thanks to you. You've twisted so many of our thoughts and words around and made us out to be something we're not by many of your posts. That's a shame. This thread could have gone in an entirely positive direction........
edited to add:

Dr Tommorrow states : Perhaps "Those who side with me but are afraid to voice an opinion"

I think I said something very similar several pages back......

 

[SoCalKDG]

Ken:
you are right that logic and emotion are two separate things. And that no one can help the emotions he feels at any given time.However, Kim was trying to show how LOGICALLY, you can't get from point A to point C without an emotional leap of logic.

Logic says we should be able to discuss:

- which resort is better(BWV of course )
- what class of hotel should we stay at
- should we put 5 people in a 1 bedroom
- where we should and shouldn't valet
- What room preferences are most important
- Staying onsite instead of offsite
- Pool hopping
- Busses
- Quiet pool/main pool
- Etc, etc.

Its not the choice of what a person likes is the problem, its when reasons are given that start muddling up the situation. There have been many, many discussions on the above, and at one point or another someone ends up feeling offended.

Having said that I still believe all the discussions are very helpful. Even if you or I end up offended, if we are able to state the reasons for this, then others might be able to look at the situation in a different light. Additionally many people are able to glean info from the discussion that may help them later.

Since this topic won't be closed, maybe we can redirect it back to a positive, informative thread.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Who is to say that one bed is better than another? Certain backs may need a specific hardness or softness? I like a harder bed, my wife likes a softer bed. We each get back pain if we don't sleep on our preferred bed(we add egg crate to her side at home). While we can all agree cigarette smoke isn't good for you ( we can all agree on that, right ) my bad back or your bad back may not like the beds or pullouts at any hotel.

Do the people in this discussion feel that a smoking room is the same inconvenience as a HA room? If your choice was smoking room or HA room, which do you take?

I never said beds were better or worse they are just different Its not my bad back, like I said I am just pointing out what others have stated.

for some a HA room may be as bad as a smoking room, not me personally, but someone

 

[SoCalKDG]

I never said beds were better or worse they are just different Its not my bad back, like I said I am just pointing out what others have stated. for some a HA room may be as bad as a smoking room, not me personally, but someone

I went back and read your post to make sure I hadn't misread it. You said some people feel it was a health issue for them to have a HA bed. To me that means HA beds are worse, not different(health issue - bad thing).

I simply stated that each bed at every resort in the world is different, and may be an issue to someone with a bad back, not just a HA specifically. If one needs a specific hard or soft bed for their back, then there will always be a chance at any hotel in the world that it could be a problem.

 

[BensMom]

Smoking is always guaranteed for us because of my son's asthma. It's guaranteed "medical."