Do we really need instant election returns? (About voting, not politics.)

[Ben E N]

A "handful of people" will vote fraudulently??? Wow, you have way too much trust in people. I watch the news and see how many unethical/lying/law-breaking people are out there. Please show me some statistics that there is just a few people, here and there that vote illegally??? Can you give us any research or studies to back this?

I see what you are doing there. You have no evidence that it does exist, so you flip it around and ask for people to prove it doesn't. Except it's pretty much impossible to prove the lack of something that doesn't exist, so you then walk away feeling like you are proven right.

 

[Ben E N]

Who is guaranteeing that a person is only voting once? I moved from one state to another but my husband still voted in the state we moved from (he was still in the previous state) and when he went to vote, I was still on the previous state's books to be able to vote. They never took me off. Of course, we both voted only once but I could of easily voted twice and no one would of done nothing about it. That's reality.

So the thought of people flying cross country to vote twice terrified you?
If so, I hate to tell you an ID check wouldn't help there. A person could just hold onto their old ID in your case.

 

[kandb]

I'm of the mindset that, even if one doesn't initially realize something has a negative effect, continuing to defend it once one does learn makes one part of the problem.

I used to think that requiring ID to vote made sense. However, once I learned that it has a huge negative impact on minority communities and is virtually pointless, I changed my mind.

Even the most, shall we say, concerned, websites only point to a little over 1000 instances of voter fraud...over the last 18 years!! It's unconscionable to argue for these ID measures that severely restrict certain groups' right to vote for such a minuscule problem. People who advocate getting ID laws in place need to work on fixing the problem of ease of access to getting an ID first if it's so important to them.

As far as problems with our elections, one of the other major concerns is voter access to polling places. Problems like counties shutting down many polling sites in high-minority areas, or only providing 10% of promised voting booths to high-traffic high-minority locations needs to be corrected.

You quote something that says there has been 1000 instances of voter fraud BUT who is really checking up on people who vote twice OR vote for a dead relative or someone that is not legal to vote??? Please show us who is checking these things to make sure that people who vote are who they say they are and have the legal right to vote.

 

[kandb]

Sorry, but you really do seem to be underestimating just how difficult it is for some communities to do things that many would find simple. And let's be honest, going through getting brand new documentation is not easy even when you have the flexibility, transportation, financial requirements, etc. Believe me, it is not as easy as you seem to think it is. I didn't get a driver's license until I was 19. I had a family and the resources to know that I SHOULD get a State ID and I did. I don't think you are realizing just how many young people might not even KNOW they can/should do this, let alone have the resources to do it. And that's just one subset of people who might not have IDs.

Also, seeing as it is NOT a law to have an ID to vote in a good number of places, nor should it be anywhere, no one is disobeying the law in not having an ID and still expecting to use their right to vote.

An 18 year old can't figure out how to obtain an ID? Well, maybe it's time that they grow up since an 18 year old is considered an adult. If they feel strong about voting, I am sure they can find the time to get an ID or the minimal money it takes to get an ID, even if they are working a part time job. It's called personal responsibility.

 

[kandb]

So the thought of people flying cross country to vote twice terrified you?
If so, I hate to tell you an ID check wouldn't help there. A person could just hold onto their old ID in your case.

Who is flying across the country to vote and who said anything about that? I am talking NJ/NY. The system will probably not be 100% ever but definitely needs improvement to the system we have now.

 

[CarolAnn856]

You quote something that says there has been 1000 instances of voter fraud BUT who is really checking up on people who vote twice OR vote for a dead relative or someone that is not legal to vote??? Please show us who is checking these things to make sure that people who vote are who they say they are and have the legal right to vote.

I'm really not going to go round and round with you on this. The reality is that the number of people committing voter fraud is utterly minuscule, while the number of people denied their right to vote due to voter ID laws is significant. I'll take an insignificant number of extra votes over a large number of disenfranchised voters any day.

 

[Ben E N]

Who is flying across the country to vote and who said anything about that? I am talking NJ/NY. The system will probably not be 100% ever but definitely needs improvement to the system we have now.

I'll give you that any system can use tweaks and improvements, and that even with them the system will not be perfect. Not at the expense of costing people their right to vote, though. And a total overhaul of our voting system to make sure that only "legal" votes count is certainly not what the answer is.

 

[skyblue17]

An 18 year old can't figure out how to obtain an ID? Well, maybe it's time that they grow up since an 18 year old is considered an adult. If they feel strong about voting, I am sure they can find the time to get an ID or the minimal money it takes to get an ID, even if they are working a part time job. It's called personal responsibility.

Well, now we're not only talking about voting (because again, not everyone needs an ID to vote), we're talking about having an ID in general. And yes. You're assuming that every young adult has the resources to know what they are supposed to do to BE a responsible adult. You're very sure of a lot of things that are, in fact, not assured.

 

[okeydokey]

Its funny how we spend so much energy agonizing over voter fraud that is not actually real, when gerrymandering steals elections.

 

[bcla]

Just to get this back on the original subject, the Utah 4th Congressional race is extremely tight, and nobody is calling it yet. So it’s not just Florida that takes a while, as they’re still counting ballots.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/11/14/rep-mia-love-sues-salt/
Utah is dealing with a high volume of by-mail and provisional ballots this year, which delay the calculation of votes. Included in the processing of those ballots is verification of a voter’s signature against registration records, or the submission of affidavits in instances where a signature discrepancy is identified.​

 

[sam_gordon]

A "handful of people" will vote fraudulently??? Wow, you have way too much trust in people. I watch the news and see how many unethical/lying/law-breaking people are out there. Please show me some statistics that there is just a few people, here and there that vote illegally??? Can you give us any research or studies to back this?

Wouldn't it be easier to show (if it were true) the large amount of fraudulent votes? Can you give us any research or studies that fraudulent votes have actually had an impact?

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Wouldn't it be easier to show (if it were true) the large amount of fraudulent votes? Can you give us any research or studies that fraudulent votes have actually had an impact?

The burden of proof is on the person asserting the affirmative. You can't prove a negative. It's the prove you don't have any more candy demand. You can't. Therefore if someone accuses you of having candy, it is up to them to prove it. In this case the affirmative is the assertion of widespread voter fraud.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

You quote something that says there has been 1000 instances of voter fraud BUT who is really checking up on people who vote twice OR vote for a dead relative or someone that is not legal to vote??? Please show us who is checking these things to make sure that people who vote are who they say they are and have the legal right to vote.

California is checking up as they go. They're verifying signatures. That's why it takes so long. And there is a verifiable paper trail.

 

[Wishing on a star]

it also doesn't matter what kind of procedures and checks are in place, when ballots are destroyed, mishandled, found in rental cars at airports, etc.

 

[Colleen27]

I think it is a fair assumption that EVERY American citizen, with any basis at all, has a right to get an ID.
That sounds like equal rights to me.
I see absolutely no infringment of rights at all.
No question.

Equal opportunity is not the same as equal access, though. If the cost and documentation requirements are barriers for some, that is an infringement.

A "handful of people" will vote fraudulently??? Wow, you have way too much trust in people. I watch the news and see how many unethical/lying/law-breaking people are out there. Please show me some statistics that there is just a few people, here and there that vote illegally??? Can you give us any research or studies to back this?

First, it is a logical impossibility to prove a negative. If I challenged you right now to prove conclusively that unicorns don't exist, you couldn't do it. You could point to the fact that there is no proof that they do, but that isn't the same as proving that they don't.

Second, every serious and non-partisan inquiry into voter fraud has found it to be exceedingly rare (See https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/18/us/voter-fraud.html). Additionally, the most common types of fraud that have actually been documented are types that are entirely unaffected by voter ID laws. Types such as:

Who is guaranteeing that a person is only voting once? I moved from one state to another but my husband still voted in the state we moved from (he was still in the previous state) and when he went to vote, I was still on the previous state's books to be able to vote. They never took me off. Of course, we both voted only once but I could of easily voted twice and no one would of done nothing about it. That's reality.

And the reality is that voter ID wouldn't make any difference in this situation, because you are you whether you show up at one polling place or two. That's not the most common type of fraud either - most studies give that title to the "dead man voting" possibility created by automatic absentee ballots for the elderly and slow syncing of death records with voter rolls - but the two do have something in common. ID requirements don't prevent either one. But ID requirements can and do impede certain groups of people - the poor, transient/homeless, and members of marginalized communities - from voting.

Can you imagine the outcry in this country if we moved to do away with automatically sending ballots to elderly voters on the grounds that a handful might be filled out and submitted by someone else if the voter has died? But that would actually be a solution to the handful of documented voter fraud cases that have actually been identified and prosecuted.

 

[bcla]

California is checking up as they go. They're verifying signatures. That's why it takes so long. And there is a verifiable paper trail.

Like I said earlier, Utah has been slow with their 4th Congressional district race. And it can be attributed to all the mail-on ballots being slowly verified for signatures as well as late arriving overseas ballots.

 

[moon]

Its funny how we spend so much energy agonizing over voter fraud that is not actually real, when gerrymandering steals elections.

THIS

 

[Wishing on a star]

The access is the the same, equal, for every person...
I do not see anybody being denied access. When and where is anyone being denied....
Not seeing any infringement there.
These are ALL 'manufactured' issues.

Gerrymandering is a different issue all together.
Sometimes a very valid issue.
And that is something that should be taken care of.

 

[JaxDad]

it also doesn't matter what kind of procedures and checks are in place, when ballots are destroyed, mishandled, found in rental cars at airports, etc.

"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes."

 

[DLgal]

Just to get this back on the original subject, the Utah 4th Congressional race is extremely tight, and nobody is calling it yet. So it’s not just Florida that takes a while, as they’re still counting ballots.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/11/14/rep-mia-love-sues-salt/
Utah is dealing with a high volume of by-mail and provisional ballots this year, which delay the calculation of votes. Included in the processing of those ballots is verification of a voter’s signature against registration records, or the submission of affidavits in instances where a signature discrepancy is identified.​

They are still counting ballots in CA as well, in several districts. AND most of the results have flipped from the election night totals. It is absolutely necessary to wait until every vote is counted accurately before calling a winner.