Are Disney parks no longer for the Middle class?

[Colleen27]

I think different schools need different curriculums based on the population. A city 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $35,000, a town 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $197,000, my town is $85,000. I’m guessing that their educational needs differ. I had to pay for my kids to take a financial literacy class online over the summer because it was mandatory, and if they took it in school, they would’ve been stuck with a study hall because it’s a half year class (computer applications used to be mandatory the second half until they realized kids didn’t need it).

The problem with that is that it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy - kids in that working class district don't have the opportunities to take the classes competitive colleges and scholarships want to see on applications, so they settle for community college or trade school or take on big loans for a mediocre college, so they earn less than their equally talented counterparts in more affluent communities who had more opportunities, so they have more financial stresses and end up sending their kids to a lower income school with those same "different needs" and on and on. So there's a fine line to try to walk there, to meet the needs of local communities without selling students from those communities short, and so far, I haven't seen many districts hitting a good balance between the two (FTR, I live in the sort of community you describe, where the local high school offers financial literacy and life skills classes but doesn't offer advanced placement; if we weren't fortunate enough to be able to send DD18 to private high school, she wouldn't be at the college she's currently attending or have scholarships covering the vast majority of her costs or be able to manage her double major, which only fits in a four-year plan because of AP credits satisfying some of her core requirements).

 

[SaintsManiac]

Do you agree or not?

I do not.

 

[mjkacmom]

The problem with that is that it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy - kids in that working class district don't have the opportunities to take the classes competitive colleges and scholarships want to see on applications, so they settle for community college or trade school or take on big loans for a mediocre college, so they earn less than their equally talented counterparts in more affluent communities who had more opportunities, so they have more financial stresses and end up sending their kids to a lower income school with those same "different needs" and on and on. So there's a fine line to try to walk there, to meet the needs of local communities without selling students from those communities short, and so far, I haven't seen many districts hitting a good balance between the two (FTR, I live in the sort of community you describe, where the local high school offers financial literacy and life skills classes but doesn't offer advanced placement; if we weren't fortunate enough to be able to send DD18 to private high school, she wouldn't be at the college she's currently attending or have scholarships covering the vast majority of her costs or be able to manage her double major, which only fits in a four-year plan because of AP credits satisfying some of her core requirements).

I do not know what the answer is. Our state throws SO much money at the poorer districts, and nothing seems to change. Dd18 had an athletic scholars awards dinner for students in our county, a boy and girl from each high school. Each student was presented with their GPA’s, SAT/ACT scores, class rank, and where they were going to college. There was a huge disparity between the haves and have nots, with the exception of class rank. I have a friend who teaches in the next town where the schools are ranked much lower, and feels there is a lot less parent involvement.

 

[firefly_ris]

Asset allocation is hard. I’m not surprised your mom had a hard time teaching it.

I was taught using envelopes... I had "Gas Money", "Car Insurance" (my parents paid most of this but I did contribute a percentage), "Christmas" (to buy friends and family gifts), "Spend", and "Save". My dad taught me how to split my paychecks (which at the time at age 14 was I think $80 after taxes, I thought I was quite the high roller) into the envelopes and spend carefully -- I wasn't to take money out of a different envelope if I used up my free Spend. It was simple but taught me a lot.

My kids are too young for jobs, but right now they earn money doing small tasks like assisting my husband with organizing cans and bottles and taking them to the bottle return, or cleaning up the 900 million black walnuts that the big tree out front drops in the fall into 5 gallon buckets to dump in the woods. They get to split the money from that and use as they see fit -- save or spend. When they get gift cards from family we walk through the balance with them at the store, do the math, and let them decide if they want to spend it on a less expensive item or save the card for later and combine them and get something more expensive later. It's not much but I think it does help.

 

[RamblingMad]

I was taught using envelopes... I had "Gas Money", "Car Insurance" (my parents paid most of this but I did contribute a percentage), "Christmas" (to buy friends and family gifts), "Spend", and "Save". My dad taught me how to split my paychecks (which at the time at age 14 was I think $80 after taxes, I thought I was quite the high roller) into the envelopes and spend carefully -- I wasn't to take money out of a different envelope if I used up my free Spend. It was simple but taught me a lot.

My kids are too young for jobs, but right now they earn money doing small tasks like assisting my husband with organizing cans and bottles and taking them to the bottle return, or cleaning up the 900 million black walnuts that the big tree out front drops in the fall into 5 gallon buckets to dump in the woods. They get to split the money from that and use as they see fit -- save or spend. When they get gift cards from family we walk through the balance with them at the store, do the math, and let them decide if they want to spend it on a less expensive item or save the card for later and combine them and get something more expensive later. It's not much but I think it does help.

How did you divide up your save?

 

[firefly_ris]

How did you divide up your save?

At that time I didn't divide it up, I just gave the contents of that envelope to my parents every couple of months and they deposited it into my savings account at the bank. I think mostly my dad was just trying to teach me the idea of self-control with money, how some needed to be un-touchable even though I could easily access it, I couldn't/shouldn't spend endlessly or needlessly for some shiny thing, etc.

So he could have gone farther with the Save envelope (what would you have recommended?), but I still think it was a huge help regardless as my husband and I were newly married during the recession, and we were both well disciplined, frugal, and self-motivated and were well able to live without debt (well, besides the mortgages) when we had two nickels to rub together for a really long time, while some of my friends were buying cars with enormous interest rates and charging their lives to credit cards.

 

[RamblingMad]

At that time I didn't divide it up, I just gave the contents of that envelope to my parents every couple of months and they deposited it into my savings account at the bank. I think mostly my dad was just trying to teach me the idea of self-control with money, how some needed to be un-touchable even though I could easily access it, I couldn't/shouldn't spend endlessly or needlessly for some shiny thing, etc.

So he could have gone farther with the Save envelope (what would you have recommended?), but I still think it was a huge help regardless as my husband and I were newly married during the recession, and we were both well disciplined, frugal, and self-motivated and were well able to live without debt (well, besides the mortgages) when we had two nickels to rub together for a really long time, while some of my friends were buying cars with enormous interest rates and charging their lives to credit cards.

With brokers now charging zero commissions, the next step would be to walk the kid through allocating to: savings, CDs, sovereign bills and bonds, etfs, REITs, commodities, preferred stock, individual stocks, and something you want to buy in the future. The lesson is really about spending savings on assets that can provide passive future income. And it’s also about risk and patience. This is more of a high school exercise.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think different schools need different curriculums based on the population. A city 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $35,000, a town 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $197,000, my town is $85,000. I’m guessing that their educational needs differ. I had to pay for my kids to take a financial literacy class online over the summer because it was mandatory, and if they took it in school, they would’ve been stuck with a study hall because it’s a half year class (computer applications used to be mandatory the second half until they realized kids didn’t need it).

That won't work here in my area but perhaps it is different in yours.

Here you could never divide to actually be accurate given that the school districts blend in city boundaries. Not to mention within the cities you have areas with lower income and areas of higher income and areas of middle income and those on the poverty line and so on. The median income is high in the County but that doesn't mean suddenly the needs are so vastly different as it's not made up of homogeneous groups of people.

 

[siren0119]

I think different schools need different curriculums based on the population. A city 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $35,000, a town 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $197,000, my town is $85,000. I’m guessing that their educational needs differ. I had to pay for my kids to take a financial literacy class online over the summer because it was mandatory, and if they took it in school, they would’ve been stuck with a study hall because it’s a half year class (computer applications used to be mandatory the second half until they realized kids didn’t need it).

I am curious what you think the educational needs are of a lower income area vs a higher income area.

 

[HelsBels16]

If you want to figure out what income bracket you are in for your area and family size, plug in your numbers here:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

Thank you for posting this. I have found this thread very interesting as in the UK the “class system” is only partially driven by income. There is a lot of snobbery attached to it and as a DVC owner, there is a lot of judgement around spending multiple trips at Disney, as people don’t understand that there can be adult activities such as high quality restaurants and great pools. It is probably considered a “lower middle-class” destination by many here! I thought that was going to be the theme of this thread...!!…

 

[mjkacmom]

Well, in the poor area I referenced, the high school grad rate is 73%, so I would put less emphasis on college prep.

 

[disneyseniors]

I was taught using envelopes... I had "Gas Money", "Car Insurance" (my parents paid most of this but I did contribute a percentage), "Christmas" (to buy friends and family gifts), "Spend", and "Save". My dad taught me how to split my paychecks (which at the time at age 14 was I think $80 after taxes, I thought I was quite the high roller) into the envelopes and spend carefully -- I wasn't to take money out of a different envelope if I used up my free Spend. It was simple but taught me a lot.

My kids are too young for jobs, but right now they earn money doing small tasks like assisting my husband with organizing cans and bottles and taking them to the bottle return, or cleaning up the 900 million black walnuts that the big tree out front drops in the fall into 5 gallon buckets to dump in the woods. They get to split the money from that and use as they see fit -- save or spend. When they get gift cards from family we walk through the balance with them at the store, do the math, and let them decide if they want to spend it on a less expensive item or save the card for later and combine them and get something more expensive later. It's not much but I think it does help.

I had to laugh at your "money envelopes"! My Mother taught me that method when I got married! I did try to do it that way, but I failed big time, LOL. I did better with checks and not cash around. I'm still that way today
For our kids, we were lucky that we had jobs they could do at a young age. We had a resort on a beautiful lake when they were 9 and 11. Our son helped with yard work, and later on was dock boy. That's how he earned his spending money and learned a good work ethic. Our daughter started out helping in the cabins, then progressing to cabin cleaner. She also learned the value of a paycheck and a good work ethic. I think that helped them learn how to handle money for later in life.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well, in the poor area I referenced, the high school grad rate is 73%, so I would put less emphasis on college prep.

But I could also see that treading into the point Colleen was discussing.

It's not that I don't think we have become way more about college expectation over other things but I could totally see how detrimental it could be to a subset of a population to teach that you're only going to graduate and not enough about opportunities after that-college being one of them.

Besides, schools aren't the only place of learning. Lower rates of graduation often derive from lack of seeing education as a priority though no that's not always the case. That's not just going to change because you shift your course learning to include financial literacy or less discussion of college opportunities. That's can for sure be at the community level, the viewpoint of seeing the value in educated persons and how that can be impactful in a positive way towards the community as a whole. It really reminds me of the scene in Dangerous Minds where LouAnne goes to the house of the two boys who just up and left school and the mom (I think it was the mom) was like that's not in their future and that they need to be working as they've got bills to pay because she's not raising doctors or lawyers. Ironically (and perhaps a part, though not all of it, of the point of the scene) is that without the high school graduation their employment opportunities can be severely limited thus keeping their abilities in the future limited.

 

[RamblingMad]

Thank you for posting this. I have found this thread very interesting as in the UK the “class system” is only partially driven by income. There is a lot of snobbery attached to it and as a DVC owner, there is a lot of judgement around spending multiple trips at Disney, as people don’t understand that there can be adult activities such as high quality restaurants and great pools. It is probably considered a “lower middle-class” destination by many here! I thought that was going to be the theme of this thread...!!…

We don’t have classism exclusive of money other than legacy uni admissions. Racism in the US is the closest comparison. It’s more inline with your division on free movement in the Eurozone.

Having been to the U.K., I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it, especially the attitude toward northerners with different accents and having proper friends. I can definitely see the perception of Disney as low brow.

 

[RamblingMad]

But I could also see that treading into the point Colleen was discussing.

It's not that I don't think we have become way more about college expectation over other things but I could totally see how detrimental it could be to a subset of a population to teach that you're only going to graduate and not enough about opportunities after that-college being one of them.

Besides, schools aren't the only place of learning. Lower rates of graduation often derive from lack of seeing education as a priority though no that's not always the case. That's not just going to change because you shift your course learning to include financial literacy or less discussion of college opportunities. That's can for sure be at the community level, the viewpoint of seeing the value in educated persons and how that can be impactful in a positive way towards the community as a whole. It really reminds me of the scene in Dangerous Minds where LouAnne goes to the house of the two boys who just up and left school and the mom (I think it was the mom) was like that's not in their future and that they need to be working as they've got bills to pay because she's not raising doctors or lawyers. Ironically (and perhaps a part, though not all of it, of the point of the scene) is that without the high school graduation their employment opportunities can be severely limited thus keeping their abilities in the future limited.

My hs is currently at 50% grad rate. I totally get what you’re saying. I went to university unprepared. It took my first year to basically redo high school.

The problem now is that jobs without a university degree pay meaningfully less than they did when I graduated. When I graduated the pay difference wasn’t as big as it’s now.

 

[siren0119]

Well, in the poor area I referenced, the high school grad rate is 73%, so I would put less emphasis on college prep.

So rather than work to improve the graduation rate, you think it's appropriate to deny that 73% of students who do graduate a comparable preparation for college as compared to more affluent areas? Reality is, if they're in a low income area, the families cannot afford to pay extra outside of public schooling for college preparatory lessons - but those kids would have more access to financial aid/scholarship programs to make college accessible....IF they were academically prepared.

 

[AurumPunzel]

Having been to the U.K., I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it, especially the attitude toward northerners with different accents and having proper friends. I can definitely see the perception of Disney as low brow.

The English used in the UK is very diverse. Outsiders usually picture the British Accent as being one that sounds a lot like the Queen's Speech, when in fact, there are many regional variations of British English throughout the UK, even on the Queen's doorstep. The linguistic shift towards Northern English happens after the Watford Gap in Northamptonshire, which is when you start to hear the form of English sounding far removed from the Home Counties, especially with the U sound (cf. Jodie Whittaker on US TV speaking with a Yorkshire Accent having her home town of Huddersfield missubtitled as 'Hoodezfield'). Those in the North are often stereotyped in the South as being industrious working-class people with unusual accents, which is why you've noticed something about the attitude regarding their accents.

 

[NotUrsula]

Thank you for posting this. I have found this thread very interesting as in the UK the “class system” is only partially driven by income. There is a lot of snobbery attached to it and as a DVC owner, there is a lot of judgement around spending multiple trips at Disney, as people don’t understand that there can be adult activities such as high quality restaurants and great pools. It is probably considered a “lower middle-class” destination by many here! I thought that was going to be the theme of this thread...!!…

Oh, believe me, there are PLENTY of Americans who think that going to Disney is a very plebeian way to spend one's vacation time (and it is important to remember that we get much less of it than you do.) However, American families as a whole are very child-centric, and so there is a sort of judgement exception given if you can convince your friends that you are going solely for the benefit of your young children. Many adults here are kind of closeted about enjoying trips to Disney, and use their children as an excuse as to why they go.

 

[Hikergirl]

The problem with that is that it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy - kids in that working class district don't have the opportunities to take the classes competitive colleges and scholarships want to see on applications, so they settle for community college or trade school or take on big loans for a mediocre college, so they earn less than their equally talented counterparts in more affluent communities who had more opportunities, so they have more financial stresses and end up sending their kids to a lower income school with those same "different needs" and on and on. So there's a fine line to try to walk there, to meet the needs of local communities without selling students from those communities short, and so far, I haven't seen many districts hitting a good balance between the two (FTR, I live in the sort of community you describe, where the local high school offers financial literacy and life skills classes but doesn't offer advanced placement; if we weren't fortunate enough to be able to send DD18 to private high school, she wouldn't be at the college she's currently attending or have scholarships covering the vast majority of her costs or be able to manage her double major, which only fits in a four-year plan because of AP credits satisfying some of her core requirements).

That sure sounds like a veiled insult on the many tradesmen and women out there.

 

[mrodgers]

Asset allocation is hard. I’m not surprised your mom had a hard time teaching it.

She didn't teach anything or attempt to teach anything. It's a control thing. She had kids that she could control and that made her happy. As young kids, it was doing all the work in the summer so she could spend the time on the phone all day. As we got older and wasn't around in the summers because of working and such, it was take our money and put it away and we weren't allowed to touch it. That's not teaching asset allocation. That's just controlling someone.

Today, as my father passed when I was 18 and my brother and I have been gone for a long time, she is lost since she has no one to control. She has a bird now that she jumps out of her chair every 10 minutes to yell at that it's making a mess with feathers and bird seed and grabs the dustbuster to clean it up, literally at least every 10 minutes.

Being on an HOA board would be perfect for her. Discussing HOA's with her one day she said she'd never live in one. "No one is going to tell me what to do with my own property!" The very next thing was, "Look at Eric's yard over there. He leaves his mower in the middle of the yard and needs to clean up around that shed. He should live in the country." I asked, why? Why should he listen to someone else tell him what to do with his own property?" "Because it's a mess!" It flies right over her head...