This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[DLgal]

I truly believe that this is not the case, because I can’t even fathom anyone swinging a child that high up as a game (with the exception of Michael Jackson, who I also believe was not right in the head, and if there was a mental illness issue with the GF, the family would’ve known). So many parents are nervous bringing their kids on cruises, afraid of them going overboard (about half of the parents I know feel this way).

I can totally believe it. I have seen it. More than once. I saw it atop the Empire State building. I saw it on the Golden Gate bridge. I saw it at the Newport beach pier last summer. I saw it at a mall recently. People do this ALL THE TIME with little kids and it freaks me out to no end. People think it is funny, but the kids are never laughing.

 

[luvsJack]

I can totally believe it. I have seen it. More than once. I saw it atop the Empire State building. I saw it on the Golden Gate bridge. I saw it at the Newport beach pier last summer. I saw it at a mall recently. People do this ALL THE TIME with little kids and it freaks me out to no end. People think it is funny, but the kids are never laughing.

Are you saying that you think he was hanging the child over the ledge and out the window playing this game? I mean if he had been standing at the ledge and dropped her, wouldn’t she have fell to the floor or the ledge?

I have seen people play this game my whole life. And not once in a place where dropping the child would have ended in tragedy. And only enough “drop” to make the child giggle. Never hanging them over a ledge or cliff or anything remotely like this.

I have a very hard time believing this is what happened.

It seems like the grandfather not giving a statement has everyone placing guilt. Most lawyers will tell someone not to give a statement. Heck Dd and I were in an car accident where fault was clear and the lawyer the insurance company used told me not to answer questions for the other side. I was to give them his number. That’s just part of their job.

 

[Deb]

All this talk about not being able to tell if a window is open or just really clean does not really apply with cruise ships. First, in this area of the ship the windows are highly tinted. Second, although cruiselines keep things very clean, exterior glass and plexiglass on ships is just weather beaten. They don't sparkle like freshly cleaned glass on land.

 

[John VN]

I didn't say or indicate that they were floating death traps. If I thought that I wouldn't cruise.

All I said is there are some places you need to pay closer attention. I think the side of a ship 11 stories up is one of those areas.

I am ALWAYS a bit more cautious when walking the deck closer to the railing .... ALWAYS and cruise regularly. Thought I would have no issues with the paths at Grand Canyon but I was WRONG to the degree where even having those adventurous individuals who jogged past me gave me the shivers.

Funny thing is I so enjoy looking out the plane's window at 38,000 feet even knowing that only a couple of thin sheets of aluminum and glass being held up in the air by lift to the wings can come to a SPLAT ENDING if something goes wrong.

 

[DLgal]

Are you saying that you think he was hanging the child over the ledge and out the window playing this game? I mean if he had been standing at the ledge and dropped her, wouldn’t she have fell to the floor or the ledge?

I have seen people play this game my whole life. And not once in a place where dropping the child would have ended in tragedy. And only enough “drop” to make the child giggle. Never hanging them over a ledge or cliff or anything remotely like this.

What I am saying is I have seen people playing this game in places where dropping the child WOULD have ended in tragedy. The one at the pier was particularly unsettling, as the pier is a good 40 feet above the ocean. A man was literally holding a young boy (maybe 2 or 3) by the ANKLES while his stomach was on the railing of the pier, and the boy's head and hands were hovering over the water. The man was saying "I'm gonna let go! I'm gonna let go!" I felt like I was going to throw up.

 

[Dznypal]

so now some on here are mentioning that the GF was playing Im going to drop you--so if he was that would pretty much say he knew the window was open--otherwise if she was just sitting or standing on the railing and he let go she would get hurt but it wouldnt be the tragedy that it is now

what a sad story though--but I still dont see how this is the cruise lines fault--

 

[PrincessShmoo]

but I still dont see how this is the cruise lines fault--

It's not.

 

[ronandannette]

so now some on here are mentioning that the GF was playing Im going to drop you--so if he was that would pretty much say he knew the window was open--otherwise if she was just sitting or standing on the railing and he let go she would get hurt but it wouldnt be the tragedy that it is now

what a sad story though--but I still dont see how this is the cruise lines fault--

Let's keep sight of the fact this is 100% pure speculation.

 

[luvsJack]

What I am saying is I have seen people playing this game in places where dropping the child WOULD have ended in tragedy. The one at the pier was particularly unsettling, as the pier is a good 40 feet above the ocean. A man was literally holding a young boy (maybe 2 or 3) by the ANKLES while his stomach was on the railing of the pier, and the boy's head and hands were hovering over the water. The man was saying "I'm gonna let go! I'm gonna let go!" I felt like I was going to throw up.

Well that is abuse and personally I would have called the cops. Not something I would sit still for.

I don’t know, I mean it’s possible but I don’t think probable in this case.

 

[sam_gordon]

I can totally believe it. I have seen it. More than once. I saw it atop the Empire State building. I saw it on the Golden Gate bridge. I saw it at the Newport beach pier last summer. I saw it at a mall recently. People do this ALL THE TIME with little kids and it freaks me out to no end. People think it is funny, but the kids are never laughing.

I must not be touring in the right places. I've never seen anyone dangle a kid with a drop of more than 3-4 feet. You must be lucky that you've seen this multiple times.

 

[sam_gordon]

I don't disagree in principle, but there is really no reason for hyper-vigilance on a cruise ship, which is essentially a floating cross between a hotel and a shopping mall. There's really nothing there more inherently dangerous in and of itself.

Depends on where you are on a cruise ship. More than 5-10' away from the railing? Sure. Having a toddler near the railing? Yes, I think that does call for hyper-vigilance. And you're right that this is no different than being on the balcony of a 10 story building. But I would hope care givers are hyper-vigilant there too.

 

[okeydokey]

so now some on here are mentioning that the GF was playing Im going to drop you--so if he was that would pretty much say he knew the window was open--otherwise if she was just sitting or standing on the railing and he let go she would get hurt but it wouldnt be the tragedy that it is now

what a sad story though--but I still dont see how this is the cruise lines fault--

No, people are just making stuff up now. There is no evidence the grandfather was doing this at all.

 

[DLgal]

No, people are just making stuff up now. There is no evidence the grandfather was doing this at all.

The initial police statement said this, and the family lawyer specifically mentioned that allegation in his own statement.

 

[mummabear]

Are you saying that you think he was hanging the child over the ledge and out the window playing this game? I mean if he had been standing at the ledge and dropped her, wouldn’t she have fell to the floor or the ledge?

I have seen people play this game my whole life. And not once in a place where dropping the child would have ended in tragedy. And only enough “drop” to make the child giggle. Never hanging them over a ledge or cliff or anything remotely like this.

I have a very hard time believing this is what happened.

It seems like the grandfather not giving a statement has everyone placing guilt. Most lawyers will tell someone not to give a statement. Heck Dd and I were in an car accident where fault was clear and the lawyer the insurance company used told me not to answer questions for the other side. I was to give them his number. That’s just part of their job.

I am saying I can easily see him sitting her on the railing and rocking her out the window a little, and something happened on one rock that caused her to go all the way out.
So not holding her out the window like MJ and Blanket but rocking her out so her face was going though it.

so now some on here are mentioning that the GF was playing Im going to drop you--so if he was that would pretty much say he knew the window was open--otherwise if she was just sitting or standing on the railing and he let go she would get hurt but it wouldnt be the tragedy that it is now

what a sad story though--but I still dont see how this is the cruise lines fault--

As another poster mentioned this is pure speculation on my behalf, I haven't read it anywhere else. Just what makes most sense to me, particularly with the report of ricking/swaying.

 

[mummabear]

No, people are just making stuff up now. There is no evidence the grandfather was doing this at all.

There is more evidence if this than there is that he lifted her to bang on the glass.
The only actual evidence is the video, that hopefully is never made public.
At the end if the day, I think we can all agree that then GF did not mean for her to die, there was no malice to his actions, and sad to say, I bet he isnt the only person ever to do what he did, or something very similar.
However I doubt that this is going to turn out to be something that we would find could have happened to any of us. I doubt that this was him carrying her and she wiggled and went overboard.
It is just a matter of which of the stupid things that people are speculating was he doing.

 

[Wendy31]

This past Friday & Saturday, we attended the season-ending city-wide meet for our summer swim team. It was held in an indoor gym w/ stadium-type seating in bleachers above the 2 pools. Along the walkway in front of the bleachers was a railing.

As I was sitting watching one event, I noticed a dad standing next the railing & holding his young child in his arms. (The little boy looked to be in the 12-15 month age range.) And it made me think of this thread. He wasn't dangling him over the railing or anything like that or even sitting him or propping him up on the railing. For me, it was just the fact that he was right next to the railing w/ a drop from the railing straight down to the pool deck below, &, w/ his child in his arms, the child was now above the railing. It's the kind of potential danger, as a parent, you don't always think about or aren't always conscious/aware. If his child had gotten suddenly wriggly & he didn't have a good grip or had his attention diverted in some way, the child could have gone right over the edge. And I know what the grandfather was doing/did w/ his grandchild was different, but, still, watching them made me nervous.

Like others have said, we've all done things (or not done things) as parents that could have ended in tragedy. Accidents happen in a blink.

We can go back & forth all day long on how a person can NOT notice a window being open or what actions led to the granddaughter falling, but I don't think the grandfather intentionally put his granddaughter in danger. It was an awful accident with tragic, tragic results.

Everyone has seen & read different studies on how a person's brain can play tricks. Knowing my own dad & my husband's dad, I also think some men (some, not all!) as they get older don't always instinctively think about child-danger. There are so many different reasons or so many different things that could have contributed to this grandfather thinking/assuming the window was closed. But I also know that both of our children's grandfathers love & loved (my father-in-law passed away a little over a year ago) their grandchildren. Something like this would have completely broken them.

I also don't think the cruise ship is to blame. The grandfather's actions are what caused his grandchild's death. However, I also understand a person wanting to (& NEEDING to) find something else besides his own self to blame. I can understand his family needing the same thing.

I'm very sad & heartbroken for this family. I don't know how a family gets past a tragedy of this magnitude. To know your actions caused the death of your grandchild, to know your spouse caused the death of your grandchild, to know your father/father-in-law caused the death of your grandchild, & to realize it could have been prevented... that one careless, in-the-moment action caused such a finality... it's the kind of tragedy that will echo & ripple for generations.

 

[MrsPete]

The articles I've seen have said he picked up her so she could "bang on the glass" like she does at her brothers' hockey games ... and he didn't realize the window was open /had no glass. They've shown pictures of the wall of glass /that particular open window. They're blaming the cruise ship (predictable), saying the window shouldn't have been open.

I have several problems with this story:

- The little girl could easily have "banged on the glass" down at her level. She didn't need to be picked up to do this.
- What kind of idiot doesn't notice that a window is open?
- The cruise ship play area was perfectly safe for kids ... unless someone lifted them up so they could reach the windows that opened.

Regardless, my heart goes out to the family. They'll never recover from this -- especially the grandfather. I read that the medics at the scene had to sedate him. My husband says he needs to be placed on suicide watch.

 

[Suger Mag]

I remember when my kids were little, I would ask my folks to do certain things... sitting in the back seat... wearing bike helmets etc. that they never worried about when I was a little kid in the 70's and sometimes they looked at me like I was so over protective, and well... I survived right? People can have different ideas of what is and what is not safe

What a tragedy and my heart goes out to this family, life will never be the same for them. Of course he did not mean for something to happen, but I can totally see him putting the baby on the railing, and her squirming away and out that window. I also think, as others have pointed out, that he is desperate for this to be someone else's fault rather than his own.

 

[sam_gordon]

The initial police statement said this, and the family lawyer specifically mentioned that allegation in his own statement.

OK, sorry, I call BS. Go ahead and show where the police statement said the GF was playing "I'm going to drop you". And where the lawyer mentioned it. Here's the quote from the lawyer...
“Essentially her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it’s clear, but it turns out there was no glass there.
“She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she’s gone.”

If you want to speculate on what happened, feel free. But don't present opinions as facts.

 

[DLgal]

OK, sorry, I call BS. Go ahead and show where the police statement said the GF was playing "I'm going to drop you". And where the lawyer mentioned it. Here's the quote from the lawyer...
“Essentially her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it’s clear, but it turns out there was no glass there.
“She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she’s gone.”

If you want to speculate on what happened, feel free. But don't present opinions as facts.

OMG. The initial report used the word "dangling."

The father's boss, the Police Chief, then made a statement that the dangling story was not true. (I have no idea how the Police Chief in Indiana could makes such a claim without being present, but that's what he said).

The lawyer then went on the record to several news outlets that "this was not like the Michael Jackson dangling incident." He then started pushing the banging on the glass story.

And now, apparently, the video has been described as the GF either rocking or swinging the child immediately before she fell out the window.

You can do a quick Google search of the news articles going back a week ago and see the progression in the story told. It's not hard. On just the first 2 pages in the search results, I found 5 articles that specifically mentioned the initial reports. Some said dangling. Some said "being held out the window."