This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[sam_gordon]

I can see not realizing there was an open window from far away and then getting close with the assumption that all windows are closed, so not really thinking to doublecheck. Foolish mistake of course.

I can see thinking the windows were closed from a distance, but once you get near the window, even if your sight is bad, I expect most people to notice it's open. The noise from outside (remember they were dockside) along with the breeze or smell.

I know a lot of people have admitted to walking into (or hitting) a closed window/door thinking it was open. But has anyone been next to and thought a window/door was closed and it was actually open (which is what the case is here)?

My guess on what happened... he was holding the child in his arms standing with his waist at the rail. Whether he was holding her to calm her, put her to sleep, or to give her a better view doesn't really matter. While holding her (and this puts her body physically above the rail), she falls out of his arms. Whether it's because she decided to kick and push, or some other reason, I don't know. Unfortunately, when she fell, she went out of the window. He might have reached for her and maybe almost caught her (which could describe the "dangling" that I'm guessing witnesses reported).

Now, this does not coincide with his admitting he stood her on the balcony and let go of her. But I think his brain is reaching for any possible scenario to forgive himself.

Yes, this is just a guess, I'm not saying this is definitively what happened, but I can see this happen.

 

[Tinkerbell58]

Maybe the cruise line should consider putting decals on their windows. This may help to distinguish which ones are opened and which ones are closed.

 

[mummabear]

Upthread someone mentioned that the word rocking and swaying were interchangeable, I wo der if he put her on the railing and played the "I'm gonna drop you game" and it went horribly wrong

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

Just to clarify, you stood next to an open window and thought it was closed?

ETA: I could understand being a distance away from the window and thinking it's closed. But once you get next to it, how do you still think it's closed?

I know a lot of people have admitted to walking into (or hitting) a closed window/door thinking it was open. But has anyone been next to and thought a window/door was closed and it was actually open (which is what the case is here)?

Yes, I have. I posted on here a couple pages back that a few days ago I thought a window was closed when in fact, there was no window pane there at all. We had contractors out to replace a cracked window along with other things. When they left to get materials, both my DH and I looked over at the window, noticed it was no longer cracked, and thought, "Wow, they did a great job with the window. I'm surprised they had glass already cut to size. I wonder if they just put plexiglass in." There was another closed window beside it, and yes, they did look a little different, but we assumed it was solely due to the cleanliness of the "new" window. I was really checking out the window, admiring how great it looked, and didn't realize there was no pane until I actually went to tap on it to see if it was glass or plexiglass and my hand went through the opening. There was no breeze to feel, it was daytime, I had my contacts in, and I was not drinking. Now, this was not on a cruise ship and the windows were not tinted, but still, the point remains that it's entirely possible for someone to believe a window is closed when it is open.

Depending on how the sun was coming in through the windows, whether open or closed, how closely if at all the grandfather was even looking at the windows, having an assumption that the windows would be closed, getting tunnel vision and only seeing the window he took the little girl to and not even noticing the others around it, perhaps thinking that any differences he did see in the windows if he did see any were due to cleanliness or a window that just didn't have tint (perhaps a newer or older window) and would make for a clearer view for the granddaughter, the glare of the sun making him squint a little, less than perfect eyesight, smudged or fogged up glasses (they were in a pool area weren't they? and it was presumably hot), even just slight fatigue that makes you not as quick of thinking--- ALL of these are possibilities that could have contributed to him thinking a window was there when there wasn't. I have no idea if any of these things contributed, but it's entirely plausible to me that someone could have mistook a window being closed despite how apparently obvious it may be to everyone else.

I still find it incredibly irresponsible to place a child that high up on a railing anywhere, especially a cruise ship, and would never encourage a child to tap on glass anywhere as that poses a danger no matter the height. I also disagree with the lawsuit and don't think the cruise line should be held liable. I do find it possible he thought the window was closed and really hope he did, because if he knowingly sat/stood a toddler on a (what looks to be 3" curved pipe) railing inches in front of an open window 150 feet off the ground--- well, that simply defies all logic to me and I don't see why someone would do that unless they had malicious intent, which I don't think this grandfather did.

 

[sam_gordon]

Let me say... I do not think the GF intentionally wanted to hurt the child. I really believe it was truly a freak accident. The claims of "it's not MY fault" though just rub me the wrong way.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Let me say... I do not think the GF intentionally wanted to hurt the child. I really believe it was truly a freak accident. The claims of "it's not MY fault" though just rub me the wrong way.

I suspect internally the grandfather probably feels very much its his fault. To say that out loud and as publicaly as it would be right now may be very difficult. That's not to excuse that just could be a possible reason as a means to cope at the moment. Totally just a hypothetical thought.

 

[Summer2018]

Let me say... I do not think the GF intentionally wanted to hurt the child. I really believe it was truly a freak accident. The claims of "it's not MY fault" though just rub me the wrong way.

I 100% agree.

I don’t believe that he would have intentionally harmed his grandchild in a million years. I can only assume that he was impaired in some way or just plain careless and should have been entertaining her in a safer location in a safer manner.

I can’t begin to fathom how he must feel. The guilt must be all-consuming. It’s human nature to try to deflect responsibility...to try to make sense of this tragedy hoping that it wasn’t his fault. Right now he’s probably in shock and can’t completely comprehend the reality of the events.

His daughter and son-in-law must be absolutely devastated. I really feel for them. This shouldn’t have happened. They must be beside themselves with grief.

Lawyers can take advantage of these situations when families are in agony and barely coherent.

I hope and pray that they can find some peace of mind in the middle of this nightmare. God bless them and comfort them.

 

[luvsJack]

Let me say... I do not think the GF intentionally wanted to hurt the child. I really believe it was truly a freak accident. The claims of "it's not MY fault" though just rub me the wrong way.

I think one has to go through a very traumatic event to understand the need for answers. Any answer that relieves guilt or blame. It’s just human nature to search for these answers.

 

[Skywalker]

I walked into a screen door a few weeks ago, very embarrassing.

Who did you sue?

 

[John VN]

I walked into a screen door a few weeks ago, very embarrassing.

Glass doors, screen doors ---- I blame being lost in the cosmic drift at that moment in time BUT when on a cruise ship or building landing or the Grand Canyon I was never drifting about in the cosmos. JUST NOT THE PLACE for being inattentive.

AND as Judge Judy says ..... "It was an accident, not an ON PURPOSE"

As difficult as it is, one should take ownership to one's actions.

 

[Allison]

I think one has to go through a very traumatic event to understand the need for answers. Any answer that relieves guilt or blame. It’s just human nature to search for these answers.

Agreed.

 

[mom2rtk]

Glass doors, screen doors ---- I blame being lost in the cosmic drift at that moment in time BUT when on a cruise ship or building landing or the Grand Canyon I was never drifting about in the cosmos. JUST NOT THE PLACE for being inattentive.

AND as Judge Judy says ..... "It was an accident, not an ON PURPOSE"

As difficult as it is, one should take ownership to one's actions.

Don't even get me started on the Grand Canyon. People lose all common sense there. So far this year, there have been 4 deaths.

 

[msjprincess]

Glass doors, screen doors ---- I blame being lost in the cosmic drift at that moment in time BUT when on a cruise ship or building landing or the Grand Canyon I was never drifting about in the cosmos. JUST NOT THE PLACE for being inattentive.

AND as Judge Judy says ..... "It was an accident, not an ON PURPOSE"

As difficult as it is, one should take ownership to one's actions.

I agree. There are certain places where you need to pay closer attention to your surroundings.

 

[ronandannette]

I agree. There are certain places where you need to pay closer attention to your surroundings.

I don't disagree in principle, but there is really no reason for hyper-vigilance on a cruise ship, which is essentially a floating cross between a hotel and a shopping mall. There's really nothing there more inherently dangerous in and of itself.

 

[msjprincess]

I don't disagree in principle, but there is really no reason for hyper-vigilance on a cruise ship, which is essentially a floating cross between a hotel and a shopping mall. There's really nothing there more inherently dangerous in and of itself.

On the inside or away from railings yes , on the perimeter near railings, I disagree. My rule for my kids when on our balcony or near the railings is "your feet stay on the ground".

 

[ronandannette]

On the inside or away from railings yes , on the perimeter near railings, I disagree. My rule for my kids when on our balcony or near the railings is "your feet stay on the ground".

Of course I agree with that but don't the same rules apply on balconies everywhere? And I guess that's the point I'm trying to make (not knock heads with you personally).

In general, cruise ships are not floating death traps. It's a multi-billion dollar a year industry that has existed for over a century. The ships are designed, engineered and operated with absolutely every duty-of-care to provide as reasonably safe and secure an environment as any public facility anywhere.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Yesterday we were packing up to leave the beach. I hopped in the car and simultaneously turned on the a/c and put down the window. My mind was running through a checklist of a hundred different things. A few seconds later, I looked through the window at my FIL and had two back-to-back thoughts:

“Wow, that window is really clean.”
“No, you idiot, it’s not clean, it’s open, and you’re the one who opened it not even five seconds ago.”

Sometimes the brain screws up. It misinterprets what it sees, it forgets, you’re running on auto-pilot without really processing what you’re doing. I believe the grandfather thought the window was closed, especially if he was putting her up there with the intention of letting her hit the glass, because if it wasn’t an accident then that means it was intentional— and I have no reason to think he intended to kill his granddaughter. So yes, in that sense it was an accident. That doesn’t absolve him from responsibility though, and it doesn’t mean there wasn’t negligence involved.

 

[msjprincess]

Of course I agree with that but don't the same rules apply on balconies everywhere? And I guess that's the point I'm trying to make (not knock heads with you personally).

In general, cruise ships are not floating death traps. It's a multi-billion dollar a year industry that has existed for over a century. The ships are designed, engineered and operated with absolutely every duty-of-care to provide as reasonably safe and secure an environment as any public facility anywhere.

I didn't say or indicate that they were floating death traps. If I thought that I wouldn't cruise.

All I said is there are some places you need to pay closer attention. I think the side of a ship 11 stories up is one of those areas.

 

[DLgal]

Upthread someone mentioned that the word rocking and swaying were interchangeable, I wo der if he put her on the railing and played the "I'm gonna drop you game" and it went horribly wrong

I fully believe, in my gut, that this is exactly what happened. The ever changing stories (he was holding her and lost his balance/grip; he stood her on the rail to bang on the glass; he sat her on the railing) are a hallmark of someone who is either lying or truly doesn't know what happened.

I think it is entirely possible that the GF TRULY does not remember what happened. It is absolutely plausible that his brain has "erased" the traumatic memory for now and he honestly believes that things happened the way the lawyer said, perhaps the hockey story was created by the parents, by way of asking him directly if that is what he was doing with her, as they stated they were in a separate part of the ship and DID NOT see it happen. I can see the parents saying "did she want to bang on the window like at the hockey games?" And the GF justifying the accident that way.

However, the initial reports of him dangling or rocking/swinging the child near the window are likely the most accurate, and considering the video evidence has been deemed "conclusive", I am going with a game that absolutely was being played in the wrong place at the wrong time, with tragic consequences.

 

[mjkacmom]

I fully believe, in my gut, that this is exactly what happened. The ever changing stories (he was holding her and lost his balance/grip; he stood her on the rail to bang on the glass; he sat her on the railing) are a hallmark of someone who is either lying or truly doesn't know what happened.

I think it is entirely possible that the GF TRULY does not remember what happened. It is absolutely plausible that his brain has "erased" the traumatic memory for now and he honestly believes that things happened the way the lawyer said, perhaps the hockey story was created by the parents, by way of asking him directly if that is what he was doing with her, as they stated they were in a separate part of the ship and DID NOT see it happen. I can see the parents saying "did she want to bang on the window like at the hockey games?" And the GF justifying the accident that way.

However, the initial reports of him dangling or rocking/swinging the child near the window are likely the most accurate, and considering the video evidence has been deemed "conclusive", I am going with a game that absolutely was being played in the wrong place at the wrong time, with tragic consequences.

I truly believe that this is not the case, because I can’t even fathom anyone swinging a child that high up as a game (with the exception of Michael Jackson, who I also believe was not right in the head, and if there was a mental illness issue with the GF, the family would’ve known). So many parents are nervous bringing their kids on cruises, afraid of them going overboard (about half of the parents I know feel this way).