This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[mommasita]

I’m not sure if my words will come our right, but here goes.

My daughter took her life nearly 22 months ago, two weeks after er ex-boyfriend did so, after being guilt ridden. We thought we did all the right things, talking with her, she was seeing professional doctors, etc. The newspapers were calling me, they were calling it Romeo and Juliette. It was awful. I was trying to make funeral arrangements for my 18 year old daughter, and hiding from the gazette. My husband and son found her. My husband had to be taken to the hospital and sedated.

This story is breaking me, not only are they a broken family, their pictures are everywhere. They will never recover, and yes more than the grandfather should be, and probably is on suicide watch. There are 2 other children I believe to grow up with this legacy.

Reading this thread, and seeing what people come up with is mind boggling a bit, not completely surprising, I understand it’s human nature. I guess I can relate somewhat to them, I have guilt 24/7. I KNOW because I have heard of the stories and rumours people have spun regarding our family. It is enough of a tragedy as it is, he was not an idiot, he made a fatal error. I live with this feeling all the time. Different of course, but it is always there.

We should know from other tragedies how the news and press don’t always get things right. I also agree with you all about not blaming the cruise line. I can also sympathize with wanting to blame anyone, not that it changes or brings them back, but you are not there mentally, you just aren’t

 

[sam_gordon]

OMG. The initial report used the word "dangling."

The father's boss, the Police Chief, then made a statement that the dangling story was not true. (I have no idea how the Police Chief in Indiana could makes such a claim without being present, but that's what he said).

The lawyer then went on the record to several news outlets that "this was not like the Michael Jackson dangling incident." He then started pushing the banging on the glass story.

And now, apparently, the video has been described as the GF either rocking or swinging the child immediately before she fell out the window.

You can do a quick Google search of the news articles going back a week ago and see the progression in the story told. It's not hard. On just the first 2 pages in the search results, I found 5 articles that specifically mentioned the initial reports. Some said dangling. Some said "being held out the window."

A news report is not the same as the police report. You said "the initial police statement said this".

Here's the original report:

"It's an American family where the grandfather pokes the girl out of a window ... the girl falls to the cliff and dies ... At this time (the Division of) Homicide is in place; It has not been possible to interview the family. It is a very strong scene, very sad and tragic ... at one point, one of his grandparents, apparently, in an act of games, exposes the girl to the void and falls out of his hands, "he explained in dismay. of the Department of Public Security, Elmer Román.

Source

This is translated from Spanish by google. Do you honestly believe the grandfather put the child outside the window?

 

[ronandannette]

I’m not sure if my words will come our right, but here goes.

My daughter took her life nearly 22 months ago, two weeks after er ex-boyfriend did so, after being guilt ridden. We thought we did all the right things, talking with her, she was seeing professional doctors, etc. The newspapers were calling me, they were calling it Romeo and Juliette. It was awful. I was trying to make funeral arrangements for my 18 year old daughter, and hiding from the gazette. My husband and son found her. My husband had to be taken to the hospital and sedated.

This story is breaking me, not only are they a broken family, their pictures are everywhere. They will never recover, and yes more than the grandfather should be, and probably is on suicide watch. There are 2 other children I believe to grow up with this legacy.

Reading this thread, and seeing what people come up with is mind boggling a bit, not completely surprising, I understand it’s human nature. I guess I can relate somewhat to them, I have guilt 24/7. I KNOW because I have heard of the stories and rumours people have spun regarding our family. It is enough of a tragedy as it is, he was not an idiot, he made a fatal error. I live with this feeling all the time. Different of course, but it is always there.

We should know from other tragedies how the news and press don’t always get things right. I also agree with you all about not blaming the cruise line. I can also sympathize with wanting to blame anyone, not that it changes or brings them back, but you are not there mentally, you just aren’t

Grace and peace - I understand.

 

[gwynne]

I’m not sure if my words will come our right, but here goes.

My daughter took her life nearly 22 months ago, two weeks after er ex-boyfriend did so, after being guilt ridden. We thought we did all the right things, talking with her, she was seeing professional doctors, etc. The newspapers were calling me, they were calling it Romeo and Juliette. It was awful. I was trying to make funeral arrangements for my 18 year old daughter, and hiding from the gazette. My husband and son found her. My husband had to be taken to the hospital and sedated.

This story is breaking me, not only are they a broken family, their pictures are everywhere. They will never recover, and yes more than the grandfather should be, and probably is on suicide watch. There are 2 other children I believe to grow up with this legacy.

Reading this thread, and seeing what people come up with is mind boggling a bit, not completely surprising, I understand it’s human nature. I guess I can relate somewhat to them, I have guilt 24/7. I KNOW because I have heard of the stories and rumours people have spun regarding our family. It is enough of a tragedy as it is, he was not an idiot, he made a fatal error. I live with this feeling all the time. Different of course, but it is always there.

We should know from other tragedies how the news and press don’t always get things right. I also agree with you all about not blaming the cruise line. I can also sympathize with wanting to blame anyone, not that it changes or brings them back, but you are not there mentally, you just aren’t

@mommasita I am so sorry for your loss. Please take good care of yourself. Sending gentle hugs your way.

 

[Magical2017]

I’m not sure if my words will come our right, but here goes.

My daughter took her life nearly 22 months ago, two weeks after er ex-boyfriend did so, after being guilt ridden. We thought we did all the right things, talking with her, she was seeing professional doctors, etc. The newspapers were calling me, they were calling it Romeo and Juliette. It was awful. I was trying to make funeral arrangements for my 18 year old daughter, and hiding from the gazette. My husband and son found her. My husband had to be taken to the hospital and sedated.

This story is breaking me, not only are they a broken family, their pictures are everywhere. They will never recover, and yes more than the grandfather should be, and probably is on suicide watch. There are 2 other children I believe to grow up with this legacy.

Reading this thread, and seeing what people come up with is mind boggling a bit, not completely surprising, I understand it’s human nature. I guess I can relate somewhat to them, I have guilt 24/7. I KNOW because I have heard of the stories and rumours people have spun regarding our family. It is enough of a tragedy as it is, he was not an idiot, he made a fatal error. I live with this feeling all the time. Different of course, but it is always there.

We should know from other tragedies how the news and press don’t always get things right. I also agree with you all about not blaming the cruise line. I can also sympathize with wanting to blame anyone, not that it changes or brings them back, but you are not there mentally, you just aren’t

I am sorry for your loss.

 

[DLgal]

A news report is not the same as the police report. You said "the initial police statement said this".

Here's the original report:
Source

This is translated from Spanish by google. Do you honestly believe the grandfather put the child outside the window?

Oh, for goodness sake. Here you go!

https://www.today.com/news/family-toddler-who-fell-cruise-ship-speaks-out-about-cause-t157908
From the article:


Initial reports from police indicated Chloe Wiegand fell out of her grandfather's arms from aboard the Royal Caribbean's Freedom of the Seas. But her family is disputing that account.

Michael Winkleman, a Miami-based attorney hired by Chloe's family, said her grandfather put the girl on a ledge near a window in a children's area, but was unaware that the window was open.

 

[mummabear]

A news report is not the same as the police report. You said "the initial police statement said this".

Here's the original report:
Source

This is translated from Spanish by google. Do you honestly believe the grandfather put the child outside the window?

Yes. The initial report (admittedly translated and slightly wrong words can make a huge difference) even says in the course of games.
Add that with swaying and we can put two and two together.
But does it really matter if he was put her on the railing so she could bang on a window, apparently without checking she had balance before letting go? Or was playing "whoops gpnna drop ya" either way it sounds like a poor decision was made. One that as I have said before loads of people have likely done it and gotten away with it(maybe not exactly the same but whoopsies somewhere silly). It doesnt sound like the kind of accident that is basically reasonably unavoidable (like carring her and slipping on the deck and loosing grip over the railing.) That doesn't take away that her appears to have been a loving grandparent who would undoubtedly do anything to rewind and not do it.

 

[sam_gordon]

Oh, for goodness sake. Here you go!

https://www.today.com/news/family-toddler-who-fell-cruise-ship-speaks-out-about-cause-t157908
From the article:


Initial reports from police indicated Chloe Wiegand fell out of her grandfather's arms from aboard the Royal Caribbean's Freedom of the Seas. But her family is disputing that account.

Michael Winkleman, a Miami-based attorney hired by Chloe's family, said her grandfather put the girl on a ledge near a window in a children's area, but was unaware that the window was open.

Yes. The initial report (admittedly translated and slightly wrong words can make a huge difference) even says in the course of games.
Add that with swaying and we can put two and two together.
But does it really matter if he was put her on the railing so she could bang on a window, apparently without checking she had balance before letting go? Or was playing "whoops gpnna drop ya" either way it sounds like a poor decision was made. One that as I have said before loads of people have likely done it and gotten away with it(maybe not exactly the same but whoopsies somewhere silly). It doesnt sound like the kind of accident that is basically reasonably unavoidable (like carring her and slipping on the deck and loosing grip over the railing.) That doesn't take away that her appears to have been a loving grandparent who would undoubtedly do anything to rewind and not do it.

So you both believe he was actually dangling the toddler outside the window while playing a game?

 

[mummabear]

So you both believe he was actually dangling the toddler outside the window while playing a game?

Dangling is not exactly the word I would use, dangling is what I would describe MJ doing with blanket.
I think she sat or stood her in the rail and rocked her toward the open window in a stupid game and then she accidentally went out it.

 

[luvsJack]

Yes. The initial report (admittedly translated and slightly wrong words can make a huge difference) even says in the course of games.
Add that with swaying and we can put two and two together.
But does it really matter if he was put her on the railing so she could bang on a window, apparently without checking she had balance before letting go? Or was playing "whoops gpnna drop ya" either way it sounds like a poor decision was made. One that as I have said before loads of people have likely done it and gotten away with it(maybe not exactly the same but whoopsies somewhere silly). It doesnt sound like the kind of accident that is basically reasonably unavoidable (like carring her and slipping on the deck and loosing grip over the railing.) That doesn't take away that her appears to have been a loving grandparent who would undoubtedly do anything to rewind and not do it.

You mention “not checking she had her balance before letting go”. I think it has to be considered that he may have only “let go” for a split second. Or he may have even said “I must have let her go” meaning he wasn’t sure. It doesn’t mean he put her up there and just completely let go of her.

Or the slipping on the deck could have happened along with sitting her on the rail and that is why he let go.

It’s very possible that the actual facts are somewhere in the middle of all of it.

He could have not looked at the window, assuming it was closed, set her on the rail and in the same motion, slipped and let go and she lunged for the window and fell. And it all could have happened in the same motion.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

*sigh* sad we are still discussing this

Full stop safety rule, you want your little one to see at "eye level", you put them in baby carrier. Problem solved, tragedy avoided. How anyone could defend grandpa's stupidity is beyond me....

 

[mjkacmom]

*sigh* sad we are still discussing this

Full stop safety rule, you want your little one to see at "eye level", you put them in baby carrier. Problem solved, tragedy avoided. How anyone could defend grandpa's stupidity is beyond me....

What’s really sad are people with no compassion or empathy.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

What’s really sad are people with no compassion or empathy.

That would be the lawyers in this circumstance.

 

[Searc]

OK, sorry, I call BS. Go ahead and show where the police statement said the GF was playing "I'm going to drop you". And where the lawyer mentioned it. Here's the quote from the lawyer...
“Essentially her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it’s clear, but it turns out there was no glass there.
“She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she’s gone.”

If you want to speculate on what happened, feel free. But don't present opinions as facts.

Who believes a word the "family lawyer" says? Not me. I believe facts, which are in the police report, not the PR story spun by the sleazy lawyer.

 

[sam_gordon]

Who believes a word the "family lawyer" says? Not me. I believe facts, which are in the police report, not the PR story spun by the sleazy lawyer.

The only "facts" that are in the police report are that a witness said "x". That doesn't mean "x" is a fact.

And I'm not saying the lawyer's story is a fact either. I only quoted the lawyer in response to PP who brought up his statement.

Personally, I don't think we (the public) are ever going to hear what actually happened.

 

[lifesavacation]

The only "facts" that are in the police report are that a witness said "x". That doesn't mean "x" is a fact.

And I'm not saying the lawyer's story is a fact either. I only quoted the lawyer in response to PP who brought up his statement.

Personally, I don't think we (the public) are ever going to hear what actually happened.

The only eyewitness isn’t speaking to the police. What is being reported came from video evidence.

 

[Searc]

The only "facts" that are in the police report are that a witness said "x". That doesn't mean "x" is a fact.

And I'm not saying the lawyer's story is a fact either. I only quoted the lawyer in response to PP who brought up his statement.

Personally, I don't think we (the public) are ever going to hear what actually happened.

I am assuming the police have seen the video evidence and have written a report based on that. I don't know if that actual report will be released to the public or just a synopsis.

 

[Allison]

Yesterday we were packing up to leave the beach. I hopped in the car and simultaneously turned on the a/c and put down the window. My mind was running through a checklist of a hundred different things. A few seconds later, I looked through the window at my FIL and had two back-to-back thoughts:

“Wow, that window is really clean.”
“No, you idiot, it’s not clean, it’s open, and you’re the one who opened it not even five seconds ago.”

Sometimes the brain screws up. It misinterprets what it sees, it forgets, you’re running on auto-pilot without really processing what you’re doing. I believe the grandfather thought the window was closed, especially if he was putting her up there with the intention of letting her hit the glass, because if it wasn’t an accident then that means it was intentional— and I have no reason to think he intended to kill his granddaughter. So yes, in that sense it was an accident. That doesn’t absolve him from responsibility though, and it doesn’t mean there wasn’t negligence involved.

Exactly.

 

[luvsJack]

That would be the lawyers in this circumstance.

No. That wouldbe people referring to the grandfather’s “stupidity” when you honestly have no clue.

 

[luvsJack]

The only eyewitness isn’t speaking to the police. What is being reported came from video evidence.

How do you know this?

The initial report stated she fell out of his arms while holding her out the window. The family is contesting that. Surely the lawyer would ask to see the video.

Later articles are saying the investigation is continuing including investigations of the cruise ship. These were 2 and 3 days ago. If the video shows exactly what the police said, why would they continue investigating the ship?