The US Covid Recovery is Exceptional. Why? What did it do different?

[Planogirl]

I'm just expressing that there are other priorities besides what Luxembourg is doing about covid.

Riots are happening regularly whether you read about it or not, and they are more of a concern than what Europe is doing.

We can certainly be concerned about more than one thing at a time. Personally I'm very interested in how other countries handle this. You can teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[Donald13]

Oh hon, I could tell you the reason, but I'd be banned for sure.

Plus one!!!! We know the reason. See user name.

 

[JimMIA]

that's like the second time you've mentioned riots - it's almost like you are trying to make this political......

Nope. There is nothing political about riots...nor covid, so it's actually a pretty apt comparison.

Nobody is in favor of either one.

 

[JimMIA]

Well I live about 15 minutes away from Philadelphia, PA - they are literally burning things down due to various reasons - my opinion of which are irrelevant - and I am more concerned about what the COVID plan is.

So - Riots aren't more important in my opinion, than figuring out what should be done about COVID.

Right, and I respect your opinion even though we disagree on the importance of riots.

 

[NotUrsula]

[snip]
Yes, I have some opinions about why this is going the way it is, and I think some polite discourse on the subject is interesting, but I'm mostly asking about what was different rather than why was it different.
[snip]
It shouldn't be impossible to talk about the differences in policies and conditions around the world and the differences in outcomes owing to them ... or not owing to them.
[snip]
That's an interesting pair of sentences to chain together. So what do you think was different about China that let them essentially eradicate new cases within 3 months and nearly end the deaths within 4?

OK, if we are just going to speak of WHAT, I think there are a few possible variables worth examining ...
1. Americans' health in general, or lack thereof. This is where obesity, etc. comes in. It is caused in some part by ...
2. Americans' lack of universal healthcare. The majority of uninsured Americans are afraid to seek medical care at all because of the perceived cost, and generally will not seek care unless they are so sick as to be incapable of going to work. This is one of the two factors I believe are most crucial. The other one is ...
3. Americans' lack of Federally-mandated paid sick leave. This causes sick people who do not have this benefit to go to work even when they know they should not, because they are afraid of docked pay, or worse, losing their jobs completely. It has been a problem for years with flu spreading through workplaces, it isn't new. What has changed is the stakes, because going to work shedding this virus is potentially a lot more deadly to others.
4. American business and governments' obsession with the just-in-time model of logistics. Conventional business wisdom is that it is foolish to pay for anything more than the least amount of warehouse space you can possibly get away with, so any time you get a serious supply chain interruption, shortages happen instantly. When the products in question are medical supplies, shortages lead to fatalities.
5. American notions of the sanctity of personal privacy. This one makes effective contact tracing impossible, even when we try (which we often don't, but that's a political issue again.)
It's also relatively new -- we didn't think this way in 1918. The current way of thinking dates back to the early 1970s, and while it has done much good in many ways, it really can cause a lot of harm when the topic is communicable disease.

FWIW, I don't blame China. China is the country that it is, and the society that it is, with cultural traditions it has had for centuries, and one of those traditions is one of the strictest interpretations of the principle of "caveat emptor" that I have ever seen. American companies that successfully do business in China are fully aware of those traditions. They knew full well what happened with SARS (as did the professional cadre of the US government), and we knew that it could happen again and cause just the kind of morbidity that we've seen, but American business at large chose to ignore that scenario in service to the bottom line. It was a calculated risk, and American businesses (and American governments that depend upon those businesses) mostly lost the bet. (Time to re-examine our tolerance for reckless gambling habits, I think.)

When the US "closed" traffic from China (and later, Italy), the loopholes left open were as wide as the side of a barn. Any American citizen who was there or had been there recently was free to return to the US commercially without quarantine. It was only when we started receiving chartered evacuation flights that quarantine began to be required, and only for those passengers, not the commercial ones who might have come in from other departure points, or via private transport. It was decentralized, outsourced to non-professionals, and just generally sloppy, and the virus waltzed right through that meager cordon with hardly a pause at all.

In a job I held a while back with a very finicky labor-intensive product, we used to often tell customers that, "You can have it done cheaply, or you can have it done right, but you can't have both at the same time." Still one of the truest statements I've ever heard when it comes to complicated jobs. Americans are notoriously susceptible to the seduction of a persuasive personality and the outward trappings of material success, and we often think that the broader picture is much more important than the details. This kind of disaster is what happens when we devalue the work of experts who have put in years to truly understand the details of what they do ... when we denigrate detailed meticulous work of the mind as tedious and boring, when it is actually the infrastructure that supports progress. Ideas are nothing without execution.

 

[mrs. magoo]

It is ironic that I am currently teaching federalism and the Bill of Rights. My students have made the connection between federalism and the response to Covid. They have made great observations as federal mandates would be argued in courts. They have read what some countries have done to contain covid and stated their opinions. They state that they would still want to live in the US any day(In English they are doing work with the ideas of the American Dream and American values) But after reading the entire thread, I can honestly say this is the most depressing thing I have read today.

I have stated before I don't know what the end game is with Covid. In my county we had very low numbers (they are creeping up alittle but still not in the yellow zone) and still my school district is online until the end of January. So is the end game 0 cases because I don't see that happening.

 

[gwynne]

why do you keep mentioning riots? What riots are going on? I don’t watch much news anymore, so forgive my ignorance.

None here either.
My concern rests with the thousands of new cases and hundreds of deaths from covid-19 every single day.

 

[BadPinkTink]

3. Americans' lack of Federally-mandated paid sick leave. This causes sick people who do not have this benefit to go to work even when they know they should not, because they are afraid of docked pay, or worse, losing their jobs completely. It has been a problem for years with flu spreading through workplaces, it isn't new. What has changed is the stakes, because going to work shedding this virus is potentially a lot more deadly to others.

This needs to be spoken about as well. In Europe, by law every employee is entitled to approx 28 days paid time off. It always strikes me as very wrong that the 18 year old burger flipper in Mcdonalds in Europe can have paid time off by law in Europe but not in America. In addition, most employers will also give paid sick leave, depending on the illness and length of time off work. Usually paid time off for sickness is negotiated between employer and employee, some will let you take out of annual paid time off days, some will require the time off to be paid back by working an extra day. In general though, in Europe, if you are ill and get a doctors note there is no issue with staying at home. There is not this fear I see from Americans about docked pay or losing their job.

4. American business and governments' obsession with the just-in-time model of logistics. Conventional business wisdom is that it is foolish to pay for anything more than the least amount of warehouse space you can possibly get away with, so any time you get a serious supply chain interruption, shortages happen instantly. When the products in question are medical supplies, shortages lead to fatalities.

This is interesting and something that very few know about. This type of business model has really exposed huge numbers of business and many who follow this supply chain model are the ones who wont survive the pandemic.

 

[scoutie]

As others have mentioned, Americans are more unhealthy compared to many countries. Obesity, portion sizes, processed foods, etc. At the beginning of the pandemic, the media would often report people dying of Covid who had "no underlying health factors" failing to mention that many of these people dying were obese.

As others have mentioned, many Americans have no healthcare, or paid time off. My friend is a nurse and when she was exposed to Covid at work, she had to use her vacation days (and depleted them). When she was exposed again, she faced having to take time off work unpaid or work through her exposure.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Nope. There is nothing political about riots...nor covid, so it's actually a pretty apt comparison.

Nobody is in favor of either one.

Riots impact a small number of people who live in major cities. Covid impacts the entire country.

It is ironic that I am currently teaching federalism and the Bill of Rights. My students have made the connection between federalism and the response to Covid. They have made great observations as federal mandates would be argued in courts. They have read what some countries have done to contain covid and stated their opinions. They state that they would still want to live in the US any day(In English they are doing work with the ideas of the American Dream and American values) But after reading the entire thread, I can honestly say this is the most depressing thing I have read today.

I have stated before I don't know what the end game is with Covid. In my county we had very low numbers (they are creeping up alittle but still not in the yellow zone) and still my school district is online until the end of January. So is the end game 0 cases because I don't see that happening.

They're dealing in theory. The rest of us are dealing with the real world.

“The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

As others have mentioned, Americans are more unhealthy compared to many countries. Obesity, portion sizes, processed foods, etc. At the beginning of the pandemic, the media would often report people dying of Covid who had "no underlying health factors" failing to mention that many of these people dying were obese.

I would think these things would impact severity of disease (although there are outliers) but I don't think this would have much of an impact on number of cases? I guess there might be an argument that if you got a more severe case, you're more likely to get tested but that should only have a small impact on overall data.

 

[tlcdoula]

This needs to be spoken about as well. In Europe, by law every employee is entitled to approx 28 days paid time off. It always strikes me as very wrong that the 18 year old burger flipper in Mcdonalds in Europe can have paid time off by law in Europe but not in America. In addition, most employers will also give paid sick leave, depending on the illness and length of time off work. Usually paid time off for sickness is negotiated between employer and employee, some will let you take out of annual paid time off days, some will require the time off to be paid back by working an extra day. In general though, in Europe, if you are ill and get a doctors note there is no issue with staying at home. There is not this fear I see from Americans about docked pay or losing their job.

In BC Canada it is hit or miss with sick time. Some companies offer it as part of your salary or you can bank up so many hours based on what you work each pay period etc. I had heard that the BC Gov would be doing some sort of 14 day sick pay program for people who do not have sick time through work so they could take the time off for quarantine or sickness etc. I am not sure if this has been implemented yet or not.

Early in the year we were in Mexico when the orders came in to not travel, we came home and did our 14 days quarantine at home. I was lucky to be able to work from home and be paid for my time off. Hubby was able to get Employment Insurance for the 14 days under sick leave for it There was a bit of a fight for it over us being out of country for a few weeks and the way their weeks worked we could not be out of country and collect the EI. Funny thing is the only reason he needed to collect was because we were Quarantined for being out of the country... It all worked out in the end.

It is sad but people are going to go to work if they feel sick because they have bills to pay. I was brought up with the mentality that you suck it up and go to work so that also makes it hard for people to get that out of their mindset as well.

I don't know what the right answer is, but having sick time for people to use so they can keep others safe and take care of themselves is important.

 

[mrodgers]

New York did it, and continued to do it for a long time. I'm not sure if they are still doing it.

Pennsylvania also, but not before Richard Levine (state health person) pulled his own mother out of the nursing home first.

 

[Aladora]

In BC Canada it is hit or miss with sick time. Some companies offer it as part of your salary or you can bank up so many hours based on what you work each pay period etc. I had heard that the BC Gov would be doing some sort of 14 day sick pay program for people who do not have sick time through work so they could take the time off for quarantine or sickness etc. I am not sure if this has been implemented yet or not.

We own a company here in BC and we made a corporate decision back in September 2019 to give all of our employees 10 paid sick days/calendar year. We run a tech company which involves not only sending staff out to client sites but many of our clients are seniors so we never want to be put in a situation where sick staff are powering through an illness and possibly passing it on to vulnerable population.

We are lucky in our industry that most of our staff can work remotely so we were able to pivot immediately to a fully remote staff in mid-March but we did have to stop onsite tech visits until mid-May when the restrictions were lifted a bit. We still have the majority of our staff, including myself, working remotely.

Edited to add: we also require (yes, require not recommend!) that all onsite staff and onsite clients wear masks during their appointment.

 

[MrsBooch]

Pennsylvania also, but not before Richard Levine (state health person) pulled his own mother out of the nursing home first.

wow.

seriously....

that is so wrong.

 

[mrodgers]

And of course, it says nothing about billing... many people avoid even that minimal level of health care out of fear of the hundreds or thousands of dollars in bills that will pour in if they do seek care.

This. If you're poor, you can go try to get health care. If you're rich you can get health care. If your average, then you can't afford the out of pocket expense of having average insurance. I don't ever go to the doctor because I won't know if I will owe $35 or $3500 until 6-8 months afterwards.

 

[JimMIA]

Riots impact a small number of people who live in major cities.

Riots affect a lot more than you think.

Numerous businesses have moved out of both Seattle and Portland because of the riots there. Many, many long-established businesses in Minneapolis, Seattle, and Portland have been destroyed and are out of business permanently. A lot of those were family-owned small businesses.

Riots also have long-lasting effects. What business is going to move back into are area hit by riots?

Come to Miami and see. Hop on a plane and come to Miami, I'll take you to some areas which were severely affected by riots that have not yet recovered. And the last of those riots was in 1984.

 

[cobright]

This is the kind of statement that convinces me this is just more "Orange Man Bad" propaganda.
Nobody in their right mind is even joking about a nationwide quarantine!

My statement was just a factual response to the question of on what legal basis the Federal Government could mandate mask usage. It's settled law that the Public Service Health Act empowers the federal government to enact a quarantine when necessary to stop a pandemic. I wasn't discussing a nationwide quarantine, just national authority to impose quarantine restrictions.

Generally speaking, if an agency (like the DOH) has the legal authority to impose something very restricting (like a quarantine order) they are said to have the authority to make that order conditional or impose a less restricting version in order to achieve the same end. In fact it's generally a requirement that the government impose the least restrictions necessary to achieve its goal. So whether or not the federal government can decree that everyone must wear a mask becomes moot. They have the power to impose a general quarantine. They do not need to mandate mask usage, they simply allow an exception to general quarantine to those who choose to wear a mask.

I wasn't even suggesting that we should have had a federal mask order or blaming our president for not promoting one.

I'm not sure what part of ... anything I've said can be construed as propaganda, let alone a targeted criticism of the President (which is how I understand the "Orange Man Bad" rebuttal). Does comparing the efficacy of our coronavirus response to that of other countries feel like a political attack? I did not intend it to. I feel I've been mischaracterized. For one thing I did not, nor would ever, bring the color of our president's skin up at all. It doesn't relate to the topic and is, personally speaking, one of the less interesting things about him as a leader. Perhaps it's easier to respond to criticism I haven't made than to address the observations I have?

 

[monica9]

Because Americans are generally less healthy than our European friends. So when we contract Covid, we have less robust immune systems to fight it.

We eat more....Europeans are generally stunned by our American portion sizes
We eat processed food and crap!....yes, they have it too but I think they tend to eat more real food
We are sedentary....I've never walked more than when I lived in France for 4 months
We work toooooo much and many don't take our vacations....Europeans love a nice long rejuvenating holiday
We tend to be more stressed with overpacked schedules....I think Europeans know how to relax better (tea time, siestas, long lunches where you can digest your food)
We are getting larger and larger, it's so unhealthy and leads to all sorts of medical complications.
And surely many more examples...

We lead in heart disease, obesity, and diabetes. These are contributors to not being able to fight off a virus.

Thank you for saying the truth!!

 

[cobright]

Because Americans are generally less healthy than our European friends. So when we contract Covid, we have less robust immune systems to fight it.

This is a fair observation and does relate to how our case fatality rate, in less directly to our crude mortality rate (the particular metric I'm referencing in this thread). But what about comparisons between American and European or East Asian transmission rates? Most countries arrested their initial surge and brought active cases down to zero or near zero.

I'm just expressing that there are other priorities besides what Luxembourg is doing about covid.

Riots are happening regularly whether you read about it or not, and they are more of a concern than what Europe is doing.

At present, civil unrest is linked to less than one death per day when averaged across the time since the racial justice protesting began. Covid is averaging 800+ deaths a day and rising. This feels a lot like saying you know your house is on fire and you'll be happy to discuss it as soon as your done mowing the lawn.

If Luxembourg's covid strategy is working out better than ours, considering it more closely could pay dividends in the form of human life. Many nations will also end up seeing a far lower economic cost from the pandemic (yes, even adjusted for the size of their economies) compared to the $8T in direct outlay we're looking at because of the differences in their response.

 

[Frwinkley]

Simple explanation: someone in the US decided the virus was a personal attack against him.