The Running Thread - 2018

[TheHamm]

Let's talk about the guilt of missing a long run, for no other reason than you decided to sleep in. On back to back days.

Isn't there enough other guilt to fill my quota?
I have been debating if I would feel less guilty having a spreadsheet I followed 80% of the time rather than thinking 'I should be running today' when I have been up all night with a kid having nightmares. Key point, I did not run today. Or yesterday. And I will obsess about it until tomorrow morning when I go out.

Use whatever name you want! I actually usually only use my first name and last initial, and after you posted this I actually checked to make sure that's what I had in Strava and I saw that my full last name was there, so I changed it (I mean, I have a very common last name anyway, but I'm still more comfortable only using the initial). Use whatever you're comfortable with. Just realize that if you use "TheHamm" on Strava, if any of us meet you in real life, that might be what we end up calling you

I've been called worse!
I did click to join, Me, myself &I. My other favorite on-line alias is 'Fakey Fake Fake' and when I cannot resist signing up for shopping perks for in-store discounts I have been using 'None of Your Business at 123 Fake Street, Nowhere USA' for nearly 20 years. I realize I should be less paranoid, but I am not.

 

[KSellers88]

ATTQOTD: I would use a Garmin group for sure. I currently am part of the Strava group, but I am horrible about checking it.

 

[YawningDodo]

To piggyback on my earlier post about all the things I'm unsure about...I'm back to considering whether to buy a custom 6 month training plan from the Galloway website (the one where it'd be written by Christ Twiggs). On the one hand, I'm very suddenly hitting a point where I feel overwhelmed and like I need specific, professional guidance. On the other hand, as I'm looking at it I'm realizing that a big part of the reason I'd decided not to do that is that I'm afraid of putting my training in another person's hands after previous experiences with trainers and coaches. When I booked some sessions with a personal trainer in college, he immediately set me upon all kinds of intense forms of exercise that were completely unrealistic for my fitness level at the time, so I ended all those sessions exhausted and sore for days and not interested in continuing. When I tried Noom last year, my online coach wanted me to make massive lifestyle changes all at once; she saw only that I wasn't meeting the prescribed dietary goals and didn't recognize that cooking my own food at all (instead of going out to eat multiple times each week) would have been a massive victory for me--so I got no encouragement on the change I was actually ready to make. It's always been the same story when I go to someone else instead of designing my own program; in my first attempt at training to run I used a C25K program and it was, again, wildly unrealistic for my actual fitness level, and being unable to meet those metrics was very discouraging.

So I don't know. I feel like if the program is really a good one and really customized to one's actual fitness level, it could be really good for me. It just worries me a lot to put that much money down on a training plan when I've been burned every other time I've relied on a professional to tell me how to exercise.

 

[huskies90]

QOTD: I know we have a Strava group already, and it's a huge group! Those with Garmin, would you be interested in a Dis group on their as well or are you good with Strava?

ATTQOTD: Not a Garmin or Strava user.

 

[LSUlakes]

I was going to post this in my training journal, but...I think it's worth getting input from the larger group.

I did only my Tuesday run last week, no Thursday run, no Saturday long run (for context, my longest long run has been 3 miles), didn't even do my morning walks on the off days. That was because I had very noticeable swelling in both legs, the left more than the right, and lingering shin pain for several days in the left. I've had some swelling towards each evening that I'd been chalking up to water retention since it's summer and I've been eating poorly (way too much fast food, which means way too much salt on top of everything else that's bad for me in it), but after things suddenly coming to a head last week I'm wondering if I've been beating my legs up more than I thought I was. There's also the issue, as I mentioned in my journal, that my new running shoes slip a little in the heel no matter how I lace them and I think it contributed to the problem. Of course, the big contributor was the fact that I noticed my shin hurting more than usual about halfway through the run (I've had mild pain after each run that goes away within a few hours...another clue that I was doing worse things to myself than I thought?) and...kept going through the pain. Gee, what's that thing we don't do, again?

Because this is still so new to me, I get a little scared when I see myself just not running for most of a week, especially since I didn't do any of my weekend routine to prepare to start up again this week. I have no plan for this week, running laundry's not done, none of that. Having started things and then quit when it got too hard, I remember having times where I would intend to pick something back up again after a break and just never did--so while I don't want to throw myself back into behaviors that could cause an injury, I'm being very conscious of the need to keep thinking about running and making real, solid plans for what I'm going to do next. Last week was more hectic than I'd expected, so it wasn't until last night that I got back to doing a little reading and thinking about what this looks like.

Thoughts I'm having...I'm on the Galloway method, and it seems he's recommending (at this stage at least) two "maintenance" runs on weekdays and one long, slow run on the weekend with a full rest day before the long run. What I've been doing are two half-hour runs on weekdays during which I push myself about as hard as I can sustain for that half hour, and I do about 70 minutes of walking the day before my long run mostly out of scheduling convenience (I walk to work on my walking days, and Saturday's a better day for me to run than Sunday). I'm currently running 10 seconds, walking 50, and my pace rarely gets under 15:00 per mile--more often I'm around 15:30. This is after I deliberately slowed myself down because I could tell I was hurting my shins and fading at the ends of runs when I ran 15/45 and pushed for a faster pace. Now I'm wondering if I need to slow down even more, and that's disheartening. I think the 10/50 ratio is alright, but...and this is seriously frustrating...I'm wondering if I should be aiming for something more like 16:00. I'm about 60-70 pounds heavier than I'd ultimately like to be, which is less a concern in terms of "burn fat now!" (I'm viewing weight loss as a secondary benefit of running, if it happens at all) and more a concern in terms of "I'm putting stress on my joints." So I recognize that 16:00 at 10/50 might be the best I can do right now without hurting myself. It's frustrating, though.

In the long term, my goals include running a half marathon next June and the WDW Marathon in January 2020. So far I've gone into this with the assumption that my focus throughout my training needs to be on distance and that I'll naturally be able to increase my intervals as I build up endurance. I can't explain exactly how the thought got in my head, but now I keep coming back to the thought that maybe I should focus on increasing my ability to run longer intervals on shorter runs before I build much further past 3 miles. I just imagine myself slogging through ten miles at my current ratio and pace and it doesn't sound like where I'll want to be. I'm thinking about things like...if I focus on short distance runs (maybe up to 10K) now through January, I'll still have six months to train to run the HM distance, and then another six months to train to run marathon distance. And maybe being able to run more and walk less by the time I start adding longer runs will make things easier at that point. But then I don't know if teaching myself to run higher ratios on shorter runs will be better or worse for preventing injury than focusing only on distance.

And so, back to the injury question...I think there are a couple things I need to examine. First, I need to get serious about stretching, which I haven't really been doing (if only because every time I look up how and what to stretch I get inundated with what seems like a billion different stretches I'll never remember to do after every run). Second, I suspect strength training might benefit me--that's strength training in terms of building up my core and any other muscle groups that might help me function better as a runner. Third, I need to deal with the shoe situation. Any recommendations for getting the heel to stop slipping? I was informed in my journal thread that some running stores will exchange shoes even if they've been run in a bit, but the store from which I bought them is a three hour drive away. If I need to replace the shoes, I'm probably more inclined to go to the other one that's only a 90 minute drive and just eat the cost of the additional pair. Fourth, I do need to consider what my priorities are as I build my training plan going forward and as I decide whether to slow down on those weekday runs and make them truly "easy" instead of the "moderate" I suspect they currently are. And, too, whether I need to take Fridays off from walking to give my legs a full rest before the long run instead of taking that rest the day after.

For now I'm committing to at least walking throughout this week, whether or not I get any runs in before the weekend. So whether or not I think of anything else, I need to post this and go--it's past time for me to set out to walk to work.

Edit: Yeah, didn't get the walk in, waited too long to start and just drove to work. So that's starting the week out less than ideally.

It sounds like you may be experiencing shin splints. They are not fun, but not all that uncommon, especially in the early stages of running. I think your shoe may be the issue here. You mention your foot sliding in your shoe, or something along those lines. That should not happen! Another thing that could cause shinsplints is running of different type of surfaces. For example running on concrete to gravel and then asphalt. If you are doing this, try to avoid it for now. For relief new shoes sounds like step 1. The next thing you can do is freeze some water in a red solo cup or a water bottle and multiple times a day rub the ice along your shins. This will probably hurt a little if you are rubbing into the tissue. It will take a while to recover from this, but I would not recommend taking time off for it. It's very likely to come back if you do. As your body adapts, those muscle groups will gain strength and the shin splints will become a thing of the past.

About your training goals. I think getting to a 10k by January is a good goal and one thats achievable. From there to a half in six months will be a challenge, but you will find it easier than getting up to 10k distance. Then you will have another six months to get to marathon distance. This is also going to be doable if you reach your other goals. You can definitely accomplish all of these goals in a safe manor in this time frame IMO.

Regarding weight loss and running. While running can help with weight loss, diet is 90% of what matters. IF dropping weight is part of your goals, I recommend using a tracking app like myfitnesspal. It's not easy, but if you follow it, the lbs will come off. My rule of thumb for this is if I cant quantify it either by using a scale or using the bar code on the package, then I will not eat it. If the app tells you, you can eat 1,800 cals a day and you go for a run that credits you a extra 300 cals, try not to allow yourself those extras. While you can, and it should still work, I find it slows progress down a good bit.

Stretching has two different things here. I think the two types are Dynamic and static stretching... Either way, pre run if you stretch it should be a active thing, like lunges, leg swings, high knees, ect. Post run do your standard type stretches that everyone used to do before runs back in the day. If you google the topic you can get some very detailed explanations on the reasoning and examples of each. Hope this was somewhat helpful and good luck moving forward. Remember to stick with it, it will get easier I promise!

 

[TheHamm]

@YawningDodo , I would agree, the heel slip of the shoes seems suspect. If you can afford to eat the cost of the shoe and take the time to go and get new ones, this would be my first suggestion. I also think your idea of just walking this week is spot on, regardless of the shoe situation. While it is hard for me to accept the thought, taking a couple of days off is not going to set you back to the beginning of your running effort; injuring yourself, or continuing to injure yourself may. After an extra few days of rest, you may actually find yourself feeling better on your run walks.

Regarding the training plan, I will say I know nothing of the Galloway plan. I do know all about the described scenarios as to paying for a trainer or a plan that was unreasonable in beginning fitness level, ability to follow the plan, or expected outcome. For that reason, I think you are right to be skeptical. If there are different options out there, I would take the time to ask what is possible from each option. If I were considering the above, I would confirm this is not just their stock plan for 500 other runners, and that there is a feedback mechanism to change it if it is not working.
Keep heart, you will find something that works. It took me not following stock plans for a year to find a flexible plan through the YMCA, and apparently I was the only one who liked it as that is no longer an option. What seems to work for others, may not work for you (or me!).

Good luck!

ETA: if you go with the new shoes at the closer store, consider calling to ask when they think they have staff on the schedule that can spend some time with a new runner who has had a poor experience at another store. I would also bring in the current shoes, as well as old shoes if you have had a pair you liked better. Stick with it. Few things in life work perfectly the first time, or even the second.

 

[kbenson13]

ATTQOTD: I'm in the Strava Group, though most people may not know who I am because I use more of my real name there (though I use a portion of it here too, unlike most!). On the same front, I don't know who anyone else is in that group so it is a problem that most people use their real names there and avatar names here. I have to figure out how to tie people in.

I would join a Garmin Group I suppose though I would only do it if they have the same privacy setting regarding run starts that Strava has.

Having said that, I don't need a Garmin group since Strava works perfectly fine and I check it regularly enough.

 

[YawningDodo]

It sounds like you may be experiencing shin splints. They are not fun, but not all that uncommon, especially in the early stages of running. I think your shoe may be the issue here. You mention your foot sliding in your shoe, or something along those lines. That should not happen! Another thing that could cause shinsplints is running of different type of surfaces. For example running on concrete to gravel and then asphalt. If you are doing this, try to avoid it for now. For relief new shoes sounds like step 1. The next thing you can do is freeze some water in a red solo cup or a water bottle and multiple times a day rub the ice along your shins. This will probably hurt a little if you are rubbing into the tissue. It will take a while to recover from this, but I would not recommend taking time off for it. It's very likely to come back if you do. As your body adapts, those muscle groups will gain strength and the shin splints will become a thing of the past.

That's what I've been hoping would happen, which is why I haven't fussed about the minor pain as long as it goes away quickly. Last week the pain was to the point where it was uncomfortable to be on my feet at all, which was the reason for the break. Things seem to be back to normal now, but yeah, the shoes are still an issue. I tried several different configurations of a runner's loop in the laces and found one that mostly eliminates the slipping, but I can still feel it. Multiple surfaces...my immediate thought was "no, it's all concrete" but then the neighborhood is laid out in a grid and I have to cross a street every block--down off the sidewalk, across the asphalt, hop back up on the other side (very few sidewalk corners have ramps here). Also, some of the sidewalks are just Not Great. It'd be a challenge for me to switch to running the trail by the river on every run, since driving over there increases the time I need to devote to it and I'm already just about at my limit in terms of what running I can get done on a weekday morning if I don't shift my bedtime even earlier.

About your training goals. I think getting to a 10k by January is a good goal and one thats achievable. From there to a half in six months will be a challenge, but you will find it easier than getting up to 10k distance. Then you will have another six months to get to marathon distance. This is also going to be doable if you reach your other goals. You can definitely accomplish all of these goals in a safe manor in this time frame IMO.

That's encouraging, thank you! Before now my training goals from now to January have been vague; I've always planned to hit HM next summer and marathon in 2020. It's just recently that I've been thinking more about having a more immediate goal than that. I know it's going to be a hard push (or series of hard pushes), but I'm thinking maybe having a lower immediate goal will help things feel less vague and distant.

Regarding weight loss and running. While running can help with weight loss, diet is 90% of what matters. IF dropping weight is part of your goals, I recommend using a tracking app like myfitnesspal. It's not easy, but if you follow it, the lbs will come off. My rule of thumb for this is if I cant quantify it either by using a scale or using the bar code on the package, then I will not eat it. If the app tells you, you can eat 1,800 cals a day and you go for a run that credits you a extra 300 cals, try not to allow yourself those extras. While you can, and it should still work, I find it slows progress down a good bit.

I'm in a weird place with weight loss right now, to be honest. I've done Weight Watchers before and was very successful with it back in 2013; I hit my goal weight over the course of one year. Since my big rebound (literally gained all of it back) I've tried several times to use food-tracking techniques (Weight Watchers, Noom, just plain keeping a journal...) to re-lose the weight and come to the conclusion that tracking calories or points isn't an approach that works for me anymore. While I'd like to lose weight, it's not a primary goal and I'm not making particular effort to do so beyond making gradual changes like eating most or all of my meals at home, introducing more fruits and vegetables over time, etc. I bring it up more because I'm concerned about whether I need to do things differently in order to avoid beating up my joints as long as I'm still carrying the weight.

Stretching has two different things here. I think the two types are Dynamic and static stretching... Either way, pre run if you stretch it should be a active thing, like lunges, leg swings, high knees, ect. Post run do your standard type stretches that everyone used to do before runs back in the day. If you google the topic you can get some very detailed explanations on the reasoning and examples of each. Hope this was somewhat helpful and good luck moving forward. Remember to stick with it, it will get easier I promise!

Yeah, I'm just going to have to look things up and figure out what to start introducing. The level of detail available has been part of the problem, though; I do best by just adding one or two new things at a time and there's just So Much that gets thrown at me all at once. I guess I need to just make a list and choose a couple things to add each week.

 

[PrincessV]

ATTOTD: No Garmin, no Strava for me. Princess V out. Carry on...

Count yourself lucky if it was on your knee! We have Orbweaver spiders that like to build these webs across sidewalks at eye level. They build them at night stretching from a tree limb on one side to a road sign on the other and they’re impossible to see in the dark. It is not fun to catch one of these right in the face, regardless of whether the builder is present or not!

Truth. I ran through a HUGE one last week - it draped right over my head and shoulders and I wound up wearing the ding-dang thing like a cape for a couple miles. For my own sanity, I opted to believe its maker was happily enjoying the show from a neighboring shrub.

I was going to post this in my training journal, but...I think it's worth getting input from the larger group.

So, I'm going to speak in general terms and from personal experience because - caveat ahead - I am neither a coach nor a doctor.

In general, if you're "only" doing 3 runs a week, two short and one long, putting in an all-out effort on two of those runs is a recipe for disaster. Have you spent some time on Galloway's website? If not, I encourage you to do so - he provides a lot of information and explanation about how his system works and why he structures plans the way he does. Maintenance runs are not intended to build speed (though they might): they're intended to simply get your body used to covering distance. Some of us also incorporate speed training sessions that are specifically designed to work on increasing speed, but should come only after building a solid base. There just is no reason to worry about speed at this point of your journey: focus on getting comfortable with an easy or moderate effort.

That said, by all means play with your intervals! Different folks find different ratios a better fit, and you'll never know what works best for you until you try some. If you're at a :10 run/:50 walk, try doing a mile of a short run at :20/:50. Or even a half mile. Keep playing with intervals in ten second increments and see how they feel.

Another generalization here - seeking to go from 0 to 100 in a short time can be rough. Many people do successfully go through a training plan quickly and work up from couch to half in a short period of time... but many more do not. I've been athletic my entire life and felt that I could easily rush my progression from a daily 1-2 mile run to a 10-mile race, and it broke me. Injury city. After that, I backed off, focused on building a really strong base in which I could comfortably and easily run 6 miles at any given time, then started a slow build to 13.1. Much better, happier experience than trying to rush it.

And part of building that strong base is realizing that running alone probably isn't going to get you there. Most runners really, really need to incorporate strength training. Strong muscles, strong connective tissue, make a body resistant to common injuries. Make it a consistent part of your training and reap the rewards!

 

[roxymama]

ATTQOTD: I have a garmin and I'm in the dis strava group. I will say that I used the strava a lot for a long time but with how busy I had gotten this year I started just not being able to keep up with logging things on my garmin app, then strava, then my journal, and in my daily planner, and with my husband, etc. I was in "keeping track of things overload" So I'd end up keeping track in two places but not the same two places consistently. It was too much.
sooooooooooo...I'm taking a lil strava and journal break and keeping track in a place my hubby (aka my #1 "GO RUN" motivator and also the person that needs to work around my schedule) can see. And then I go on to the others for lil bits here and there when I can.
The weird thing is it looks like I'm not running very much where in reality I've never ran more in my life. I'm on 5 days a week and it seems like 6,7 & 8 mile runs are my new easy base miles. Weeeeiiiirrrrd. "edited to say "easy" in relation to how they used to be...these miles are still not as easy as running a half hour, etc...you all know the drill"

So long story short. I would one day join a dis garmin group and will one day attack strava more. But I needed an unplug for awhile (facebook and instagram and snapchat have all gotten a roxymama redux too)

Side note: I run on the treadmill now 2-3 times per week (a blessing when it's less) so those I log seperately in my dopeybadger chart at home. Because Ive become too lazy to manually add them in. So on a garmin group you'll likely only see me when I'm going outside.

 

[YawningDodo]

@YawningDodo , I would agree, the heel slip of the shoes seems suspect. If you can afford to eat the cost of the shoe and take the time to go and get new ones, this would be my first suggestion. I also think your idea of just walking this week is spot on, regardless of the shoe situation. While it is hard for me to accept the thought, taking a couple of days off is not going to set you back to the beginning of your running effort; injuring yourself, or continuing to injure yourself may. After an extra few days of rest, you may actually find yourself feeling better on your run walks.

Regarding the training plan, I will say I know nothing of the Galloway plan. I do know all about the described scenarios as to paying for a trainer or a plan that was unreasonable in beginning fitness level, ability to follow the plan, or expected outcome. For that reason, I think you are right to be skeptical. If there are different options out there, I would take the time to ask what is possible from each option. If I were considering the above, I would confirm this is not just their stock plan for 500 other runners, and that there is a feedback mechanism to change it if it is not working.
Keep heart, you will find something that works. It took me not following stock plans for a year to find a flexible plan through the YMCA, and apparently I was the only one who liked it as that is no longer an option. What seems to work for others, may not work for you (or me!).

Good luck!

Yeah, I'm bummed out about the shoes but thinking about whether I can manage a trip this weekend or the next. I still have my old shoes, which I had replaced because I have no idea how many miles are on them and suspect they're a bit broken down, but I didn't get this kind of pain with them so I mmmmight just switch back to them until I can get another new pair. I just don't want to do that indefinitely.

The website says that it's a custom plan designed on your fitness level and that there's opportunity for weekly communications, but it's probably worth emailing to get explicit confirmation of how that all works, whether it can be changed along the way, etc. My original idea was to write my own plan, loosely based on the stock plans described on the Galloway website, but I'm concerned that there are factors I'm missing because I just don't have the expertise.

So, I'm going to speak in general terms and from personal experience because - caveat ahead - I am neither a coach nor a doctor.

In general, if you're "only" doing 3 runs a week, two short and one long, putting in an all-out effort on two of those runs is a recipe for disaster. Have you spent some time on Galloway's website? If not, I encourage you to do so - he provides a lot of information and explanation about how his system works and why he structures plans the way he does. Maintenance runs are not intended to build speed (though they might): they're intended to simply get your body used to covering distance. Some of us also incorporate speed training sessions that are specifically designed to work on increasing speed, but should come only after building a solid base. There just is no reason to worry about speed at this point of your journey: focus on getting comfortable with an easy or moderate effort.

That said, by all means play with your intervals! Different folks find different ratios a better fit, and you'll never know what works best for you until you try some. If you're at a :10 run/:50 walk, try doing a mile of a short run at :20/:50. Or even a half mile. Keep playing with intervals in ten second increments and see how they feel.

Another generalization here - seeking to go from 0 to 100 in a short time can be rough. Many people do successfully go through a training plan quickly and work up from couch to half in a short period of time... but many more do not. I've been athletic my entire life and felt that I could easily rush my progression from a daily 1-2 mile run to a 10-mile race, and it broke me. Injury city. After that, I backed off, focused on building a really strong base in which I could comfortably and easily run 6 miles at any given time, then started a slow build to 13.1. Much better, happier experience than trying to rush it.

And part of building that strong base is realizing that running alone probably isn't going to get you there. Most runners really, really need to incorporate strength training. Strong muscles, strong connective tissue, make a body resistant to common injuries. Make it a consistent part of your training and reap the rewards!

Fair caveat. And I've never been athletic in my life, so there's that...

Yeah, I've read one of Galloway's books and dug through the website...but I seem to keep forgetting the basic principles! In my first month it took me weeks of pushing too hard on both intervals and walking speed to remember that I'm allowed (encouraged!) to slow down whenever it's too much and change what I was doing. Now it's apparently taken hurting myself to dig back into that reading and get reminded that maintenance runs are really only meant to be maintenance. I think the 10/50 ratio is probably fine for that still as long as I consciously slow myself down and make sure my walking breaks are truly breaks and my runs aren't overdoing it. And I think you're right about needing to play with intervals (I think on weekends, to avoid doing anything harsh on weekday mornings); I've had it in my head that the run/walk needs to add up to a minute together and I think I'm being needlessly rigid about it. 20/50 might be doable. Or 10/30. I won't know until I try, and I think you're right about trying it out on shorter runs to see how it goes.

I guess part of what I struggle with is how I'm supposed to build that base. Do I just keep going at my current pace (or slower), build the distance, and just accept that "6 miles easily" doesn't mean "6 miles quickly"? Or do I work on even shorter runs, like a mile, until I'm able to run a higher ratio and then slowly build out from there?

 

[MissLiss279]

@YawningDodo
When I first stared running, I did a short 5k schedule (4-5 weeks??) and then jumped right into a half marathon plan. I probably should have built mileage up a little more slowly. I too dealt with slight shin splint pain during the middle of that training. Right before the race it got significantly worse. At that point I knew nothing about maybe needing new shoes. Although your shoes are new, it’s possible that they are contributing to the problem as well as just starting a new running plan.

I think I did take a couple of run days off, and I might have slowed down too. (This was 2014.) This is what I did to help, and I’m not sure what helped the most:
-new shoes
-compression calf sleeves, I wore these while running
-heel and toe walking stretches before and after running

I training for a half marathon with a local running group, and we always did dynamic stretching before we started (at least before the long run. I rarely did these stretches when doing the other runs on my own). Once I started to get bad shin splints, I added the heel and toe walk stretches in before my run. I felt these targeted the calves the best. Heel walks - walk on your heels keeping your toes up for about 10 or so yards. Toe walks - walk on your toes (heels off ground) for 10 or so yards.
Hope this helps, and you are able to get back on track!

 

[rteetz]

QOTD: I know we have a Strava group already, and it's a huge group! Those with Garmin, would you be interested in a Dis group on their as well or are you good with Strava?

I don’t have a Garmin.

 

[run.minnie.miles]

ATTOTD: No Garmin, no Strava for me. Princess V out. Carry on...

Ditto

 

[Capang]

ATTQOTD: not a garmin user. Did just get a Fitbit versa as an upgrade from the charge 2. It’s all I really need at this point.

 

[Chasing Dopey]

Double days are common for those who have pushed the boundaries of the duration limits. Commonly you'll see this in runners who are running in the sub-3 hour marathon range. There comes a point where you can't continue to increase an "easy" run duration and it still be perceived easy by the body. That limit is around 60 min. There can be a "moderate easy" every once in a while at 90 min, but much more than 60 min on a regular basis and you'll likely find that the run isn't serving it's purpose as a recovery effort. So as some runners get closer to maximizing their potential, they'll deem it necessary to do double runs to increase their training load and try to squeeze out their last bit of potential. The option could be a 10 miler or a 5+5 miler. As Pfitz states in his book (Advanced Marathoning), the body will be more accepting to the 5+5 as a recovery effort since the duration of both is kept on the lower end of the duration spectrum (assuming a 5+5 is about 40min+40 min, whereas the 10 miler was about 80 min).

Okay, so that raises a question for me. Am I too slow for 60-70 miles per week? Here's what I mean:

I just started a 12 week half marathon plan from Hansons (had good results from a marathon last year and am familiar with their approach). It peaks at 70 miles in a week. In order to get there, the easy runs are 8-10 miles, but my easy pace is around 9:45 (although it's creeping up steadily). So that puts me out there for up to 1:35-1:40 (on rolling hills) on easy days. Am I not fast enough for this? (Although, I should add I haven't had any trouble with my 50mpw base work. I've locked in a recovery routine that leaves me feeling pretty good even after hard days.)

 

[OldSlowGoofyGuy]

This is making me want to go time myself in the 100. I'm going to allow a 'rolling start' to avoid snapping any tendons.

My rule of thumb is that my PR is roughly double the world record at any given distance. That will put me at about 20 seconds for 100 meters.

My prediction was on the money. I set up a workout with a 1.5 mile warmup, then rest intervals and 100 meter segments. The rest interval was 500 meters. I know the rest interval is supposed to be shorter than the 'effort'. This is a one time 'time trial', not intended to be a fitness building workout. I also know this is stupid. Don't try this at home.

I was consistent, hitting 20.7, 20.5, 20.5. This is a rolling start, timed and measured by the Garmin. I'm pretty happy with the results. Looks like it will be a while before Usain Bolt needs to worry.

As a bonus: made it to the pool afterwards. Didn't set any world records there either.

 

[SarahDisney]

Unpopular Opinion: (not related to anything posted here, just related to something at the office)
You know that cartoon from The Oatmeal about running that everyone always posts/shares everywhere? I don't like it. I can't put my finger on why, I just don't. Can't stand it. I wish people would stop sharing it.
Sorry, I just had to say that somewhere.
Okay, I'm going to retreat back into my hole and ignore all the hate that's gonna get thrown at me over this.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Okay, so that raises a question for me. Am I too slow for 60-70 miles per week? Here's what I mean:

I just started a 12 week half marathon plan from Hansons (had good results from a marathon last year and am familiar with their approach). It peaks at 70 miles in a week. In order to get there, the easy runs are 8-10 miles, but my easy pace is around 9:45 (although it's creeping up steadily). So that puts me out there for up to 1:35-1:40 (on rolling hills) on easy days. Am I not fast enough for this? (Although, I should add I haven't had any trouble with my 50mpw base work. I've locked in a recovery routine that leaves me feeling pretty good even after hard days.)

So is the 1:42 HM accurate (Strava best effort)? If so, these are the Hansons paces based on current fitness:



Although we're still in summer, so these are the T+D adjustments:



Your 10 mile this morning was a T+D of 144 (73 + 71) which would have been a 4% adjustment (9:35-10:18 pace).

So for the sake of numbers, let's say this was a normal easy day. I find that the EB represents the average pace of a Hansons plan. So if we say a T+D of 144 is average for this time of year, then you're looking at a average pace of 9:35 min/mile. A 9:35 min/mile weekly average X 70 miles in a week equals 11:10:50 hours of training.

The upper limit for the normal recreational runner is about 10 hours. Many do not need to come close to this to maximize their potential and become a good "converter" (or the ability to translate shorter distance racing, like HM, to a M equivalent performance, see below). Being over 10 hours enters the special range for most. Once you get above 10 hours, then you're looking at a 6 day a week plan that would likely need double days to accommodate the durations of the workouts.

Right now the last few weeks you've been in the 8 hour range with most of the pacing in the "easy" range of 9:13-10:33 (relatively speaking). So it wouldn't be entirely surprising to hear that things are going well and you're feeling strong. That's a really good place to be training wise.

A 10 hour limit would put your maximum around 62 miles instead of 70 miles. Even a 10 hour goal time limit is still quite high. It comes down to the individual and whether they can tolerate a high training load. Like yourself I was able to maintain a training load in the 7-9 hr range without much issue. I then did my Lakefront 2016 training plan which really pushed the boundaries of time. I said I had no issue handling less, so let's reach for more. This Dopey 2017 training plan summarizes the results. I made myself a better runner, but not a better runner on race day. The plan ended up being too tough. So you, like most others, need to watch closely the workouts. They've got set paces you're aiming to hit. If you find yourself consistently not hitting the paces, or even worse fading during the workouts (faster at beginning and slower at end) it is a huge red flag that your body is not tolerating the workouts. It's moved into the "Don't survive the training, thrive because of it" area. Where your body is going to be so focused on recovery, and will never get an actual chance to adapt.

So, I can't say for certain 11.5 hours as a maximum is too much for you. But I can say, most don't need to do that much and if you choose to do that much, then focus on the fade of workouts as an early sign to change your plans. I would be careful having your recovery easy runs venture too far beyond the 60 min threshold too often as well.

Converter info:
Ian Williams: An Updated Race Equivalency Calculator Attempt

Spoiler: Conclusions from Williams Paper and being a good converter

Conclusions

The conclusions we can draw from this:

-If HM performance is equal, women are likelier to finish with a faster M time than men.
-Runners of all abilities are capable of a 1.06 or less, and roughly the top 10% of all subgroups from 1:20 HM'ers to 2:00 HM'ers were roughly the same R value (or relative performance).
-Faster runners are better converters with a lower R overall average. Makes sense then why Rigel came up with 1.06 since the elite runners available to him would have been a similar pool to the faster runners in Williams dataset.
-Runners on the slower side of the HM performances tend to have more variability as a group because of the bad converters in their groups, not because of the lack of good converters. So more people on the slower side of HM performance training inappropriately for marathon performance.
-Roughly 5:00 to 5:30 hours per week on average for a marathon training plan is considered "typical" or "sufficient" by Williams.
-Those who run more than 5:00-5:30 hours per week are more successful at being good converters than are runners who run less than 5:00-5:30 hours per week.
-Those who do 5L around 100 barely appear different than those around lesser or higher numbers. The 5L would suggest it is lower on the predictive nature than other variables.
-Those who have 5L be a lower % of total mileage from 16 weeks tend to be the best converters. The faster runners also tend to be the ones with lower %5L values. Relying less on the long runs and more balance yields a better relative performance.
-Those who train at 40-80 seconds slower than race pace more often than not will be a good converter and have a R less than 1.15.

For my marathon training plans:

-The training load I schedule (around 7 hours per week) is sufficient (above 5-5.5 hrs) and is most like a 2:20 marathon runner's training plan.
-Almost none of my training plans would hit the 100 mile rule of thumb 5L. Most would be far far lower. The data suggests this is a minimal variable compared to other things.
-The %5L of training plans is a very good predictor of being a good converter. My plans are about 11% 5L of the total regardless of ability levels. The best converters (1.06-1.07) are around 9-10%. The worst converters (1.17-1.18) are around 20-21%.
-My training plans average pace is between 40-70 seconds depending on one's relative fitness. The point at which you are more likely to achieve a conversion better than 1.15 than not, is between 40-70 seconds. Or exactly where I schedule my paces.

This explains why most of my marathon training plans yield a final marathon time very close to my prediction. They check off all the boxes for optimal race day performance based on Williams conclusions. My predictions between HM and M performance is 4% or almost exactly a value of 1.06. So my runners tend to achieve in the top 25% of relative performances or at around 1.10 or less for an R value.

So a good marathon plan is:
-Over 5-5.5 hrs in duration per week on average for 16 weeks.
-Has a 5L% of 9-11%. So if you do 100 miles as 5L (or five 20 milers), then you better be doing 1000 miles in the 16 weeks of training (or 63 miles per week on average). The more you diverge from this, the worse your HM conversion becomes. Although, you can still be successful at a lower 5L like 60 miles if the 5L% is still in the 9-11% range (or 600 miles total and 38 miles per week) as long as that duration is over 5-5.5 hours for your paces.
-Has you training at roughly 40-80 seconds slower on average for the plan than marathon race pace.

 

[PrincessV]

And I think you're right about needing to play with intervals (I think on weekends, to avoid doing anything harsh on weekday mornings); I've had it in my head that the run/walk needs to add up to a minute together and I think I'm being needlessly rigid about it. 20/50 might be doable. Or 10/30. I won't know until I try, and I think you're right about trying it out on shorter runs to see how it goes.

Oh for sure - don't feel married to it adding up to a full minute! :30 walk breaks is my comfy walk place, so I leave that alone and just mess with the run portion - sometimes it's a :30/:30, other times a :45/:30, others a 2:00/:30. If :50 is your comfy walk place right now, leave that alone and mess around with the run portion. Or you could try taking the walk to :45 and leave the run at :10. The options are limitless!

I guess part of what I struggle with is how I'm supposed to build that base. Do I just keep going at my current pace (or slower), build the distance, and just accept that "6 miles easily" doesn't mean "6 miles quickly"? Or do I work on even shorter runs, like a mile, until I'm able to run a higher ratio and then slowly build out from there?

I think it's a little of both and mostly depends on how much time you have. If you have the time, I think there's benefit in a slow build, a cut-back, and a rebuild. So, using a 30-minute run as a maintenance base...

Week 1: 30 mins, 30 mins, 2 miles
Week 2: 30, 30, 2.5 miles
Week 3: 30, 30, 3 miles
Week 4: 30, 30, 3.5 miles
Week 5: 30, 30, 4 miles
Week 5: 30, 30, 3 miles
Week 6: 30, 30, 3.5 miles
Week 7: 30, 30, 4 miles
Week 8: 30, 30, 4.5 miles
Week 10: 30, 30, 5 miles
Week 11: 30, 30, 4 miles
And so on.

With added distance comes increased endurance, and with increased endurance generally comes increased speed as a by-product. You can use the mid-week runs to try picking up pace a little - say for a half mile, or for 10 minutes - but keep those long runs Long, Slow Distance.