That didn't take long...Skyliner Accident

cranbiz

DIS Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2004
The biggest issue was people got stuck for over 3 hours and they couldn't get rescued in a reasonable of time and Disney and their emergency services had no clue either how to rescue the people either.
Where did you get that RCFR had no clue on how to rescue people? That is the most asinine statement I have heard in a long time.

Reedy Creek had prior planned rescue scenario's and trained on them. They have the equipment, they have the training, they have the mutual aid agreements in place for additional resources. (The complaint about lack of firefighter resources was a union ploy as part of a contract battle). No fire rescue entity will ever staff for a total mass transit evacuation, it's not practical to have 100's of resources sitting around just in case. The issue was something that got overlooked in the initial planning stages, the fact that at night, they had difficulty finding a single gondola. I'll guarantee that this was something no one thought of because it hasn't happened in other systems, where I'm sure the base plans came from. This was a unique situation and that situation was the cause of the lengthy delays in getting guests off the system. Emergency crews could not identify the exact gondola of the guest having the medical emergency. That's what took the time. While emergency crews were trying to rescue that guest, maintenance personnel could not work to clear the line. That was for the safety of the first responders. It took the crews several attempts to find the correct gondola. Unfortunately, that all takes time. The fix is to mark the gondola cars in a way that crews can ID them from the ground in low light conditions.

Sorry, it happens every day in emergency planning. Plans get changed when a real life situation occurs that the planners didn't account for. I will guarantee that Disney's plans have been changed to reflect this, the training to implement those plans have been occurring. Not sure what the car ID solution will be but there will be a way to ID an individual car from the ground.

Communications between cast and emergency crews need to be improved, communications between cast and guests need to be improved, between Disney and the media need to be improved and if the communications in the cabins is sub par, Doppelmayr needs to fix that under warranty.
 

Lewisc

DIS Veteran
Joined
May 23, 2000
Oh come on, that is ridiculous I don't care what million dollar CEO or manufacturer who sold the skyline to Disney say, the poor communication to the people stuck was NOT the biggest issue.
What's ridiculous is confusing an anonymous post on the internet with a statement by Disney.

A poster, not Disney, said communications was the biggest issue.
 
  • seashoreCM

    All around nice guy.
    Joined
    Aug 25, 2001
    (copied from another post) They should record the sequence of gondola cabins on the line, by cabin number. This will narrow down on the location of a desired cabin given the number of another cabin. How often the list needs to be re-recorded would depend on how often a cabin might be added or removed.

    I still think that the main problem is that gondola cabins crashed.
     

    kaytieeldr

    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2005
    Pretty sure all gondolas are stored at CBR overnight. Three new paper lists would need to be created every. single. day.
     

    cranbiz

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 4, 2004
    Pretty sure all gondolas are stored at CBR overnight. Three new paper lists would need to be created every. single. day.
    Actually, they are stored on the lines overnight. They will be pulled off the lines for maintenance or something like a hurricane, where you wouldn't want those on the lines.

    Now, that brings up my bigger question, How do they move a gondola off of the line into storage? Is there a maintenance track for each line (like the short stub at Riveria) that goes to the storage area?
     
  • joelkfla

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jun 13, 2001
    (copied from another post) They should record the sequence of gondola cabins on the line, by cabin number. This will narrow down on the location of a desired cabin given the number of another cabin. How often the list needs to be re-recorded would depend on how often a cabin might be added or removed.

    I still think that the main problem is that gondola cabins crashed.
    The order changes every time a cabin goes into the wheelchair loop. Recording the order at the beginning of the day would be of little use. The order should be maintained by the control system, not by hand.
    Now, that brings up my bigger question, How do they move a gondola off of the line into storage? Is there a maintenance track for each line (like the short stub at Riveria) that goes to the storage area?
    Yes. This is the storage yard switch on the DHS line at the entrance to CBR.
    444416
    The main track is lower left to right along the bullwheel. (The device alongside the track at the right is the door opener activator.) The spur to the storage yard comes off towards the upper left. It looks like there are 2 rails heading into storage. The red devices center left are track switches; there's a switch for each direction The black sawtooths outside the rails are the chains that propel the cabins into or out of the storage yard, mounted on guide rails parallel to the spur tracks.
     
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  • kandb

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Apr 22, 2006
    Where did you get that RCFR had no clue on how to rescue people? That is the most asinine statement I have heard in a long time.

    Reedy Creek had prior planned rescue scenario's and trained on them. They have the equipment, they have the training, they have the mutual aid agreements in place for additional resources. (The complaint about lack of firefighter resources was a union ploy as part of a contract battle). No fire rescue entity will ever staff for a total mass transit evacuation, it's not practical to have 100's of resources sitting around just in case. The issue was something that got overlooked in the initial planning stages, the fact that at night, they had difficulty finding a single gondola. I'll guarantee that this was something no one thought of because it hasn't happened in other systems, where I'm sure the base plans came from. This was a unique situation and that situation was the cause of the lengthy delays in getting guests off the system. Emergency crews could not identify the exact gondola of the guest having the medical emergency. That's what took the time. While emergency crews were trying to rescue that guest, maintenance personnel could not work to clear the line. That was for the safety of the first responders. It took the crews several attempts to find the correct gondola. Unfortunately, that all takes time. The fix is to mark the gondola cars in a way that crews can ID them from the ground in low light conditions.

    Sorry, it happens every day in emergency planning. Plans get changed when a real life situation occurs that the planners didn't account for. I will guarantee that Disney's plans have been changed to reflect this, the training to implement those plans have been occurring. Not sure what the car ID solution will be but there will be a way to ID an individual car from the ground.

    Communications between cast and emergency crews need to be improved, communications between cast and guests need to be improved, between Disney and the media need to be improved and if the communications in the cabins is sub par, Doppelmayr needs to fix that under warranty.
    I am not blaming the rescue people because they have to work with what is provided to them but obviously, there was neither enough manpower OR equipment to rescue people in a timely manner. What if they didn't get the track moving again??? How long would it of taken the rescue personnel to rescue all the people stuck??? Again, not their fault but the fault of Disney for not providing the necessary manpower/rescue equipment!
     

    xuxa777

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Nov 6, 2012
    From the official statement

    Following a complete review with the manufacturer, we’ve made adjustments to our processes and training, and we are improving how we communicate with guests during their flight with Disney Skyliner.
    Notice the was no equipment malfunction, if anything operator error, "adjust processes and training" and the main part is improving the communication to guests. They are not improving rescue operations or adding equipment, as that is not needed. Also them not being able to find the right car to rescue sounds like hearsay and probably not true, at least probably took them just a few minutes, that wasn't the issue.

    Keeping passengers calm and not having to trigger as RCFD rescue, one that probably wasn't needed, is the key here. Talking to all cars/guests and letting them know the status, keeping calm and getting the line moving again is the focus of the process of training. Also perhaps not running the cars as frequent and maybe slow the system etc.

    The only major change was the addition of large signs to inform guests that the Skyliner might stop periodically which again points to education and communication is the big change from the unscheduled downtime.

    It is the safest method of transportation in the park.
     

    cranbiz

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 4, 2004
    I am not blaming the rescue people
    But that is exactly what you did. I'll remind you of that here.

    Disney and their emergency services had no clue either how to rescue the people either.
    If they had to evacuate the entire line, it's going to take a long time. If they can't move the line, that is going to take even longer. That's a fact of life. Nobody, even Disney, can wave a magic wand and instantly remove all the guests from the line. If that is an issue with any guest, my suggestion is not to use this form of transportation.

    To have enough emergency personnel to evacuate an entire line at the same time would require approximately 100 aerial devices (Ladder trucks, cherry pickers, boom trucks and scissor lifts) and 400 emergency workers. That is just a total waste of trained resources on shift as for 3 shifts, you would need 1200 trained resources. No matter how you feel, that's not going to happen. It doesn't happen in a city or town that has a mass transportation system, it doesn't happen at ski resorts where chairlift/gondolas are and it doesn't happen in the rest of the world either. RCFR has mutual aid agreements with the surrounding cities and counties. Between Orlando Fire, Orange County Fire Rescue (I spent a couple of years with Orange County Fire Rescue IT so I know what they have and what agreements are in place) and Osceola County Fire Rescue, an event at the Skyliner can mobilize at least 1/3rd to 1/2 of those required resources, It's still going to take time though as not all of those resources are close by. Those organizations have Mutual Aid agreement with other surrounding counties. The resources are available, but as you do correctly point out, they are not on site.

    How long will it take to do a complete manual evacuation using only emergency personnel? I don't think anyone knows, but it could take 8-10 hours or more.
     
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    joelkfla

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jun 13, 2001
    Notice the was no equipment malfunction
    They didn't say there was or there wasn't. If there was, they probably wouldn't say. They could internally justify their statement by saying the revised training and procedures were to ameliorate potential hardware failures.
     

    Minnesota!

    Shoeless in Minnesota
    Joined
    Sep 15, 1999
    I'm confused. Where did that article day anything about biggest issue? Did you miss, "Following a complete review with the manufacturer, we’ve made adjustments to our processes and training, and..."

    If, if, if. Az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeide'. It wasn't 95°, it wasn't midday, and if it ever happens again, well, it shouldn't - because Disney has made changes to its processes and training.
    Again, why I enjoy your posts!
     

    kandb

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Apr 22, 2006
    But that is exactly what you did. I'll remind you of that here.



    If they had to evacuate the entire line, it's going to take a long time. If they can't move the line, that is going to take even longer. That's a fact of life. Nobody, even Disney, can wave a magic wand and instantly remove all the guests from the line. If that is an issue with any guest, my suggestion is not to use this form of transportation.

    To have enough emergency personnel to evacuate an entire line at the same time would require approximately 100 aerial devices (Ladder trucks, cherry pickers, boom trucks and scissor lifts) and 400 emergency workers. That is just a total waste of trained resources on shift as for 3 shifts, you would need 1200 trained resources. No matter how you feel, that's not going to happen. It doesn't happen in a city or town that has a mass transportation system, it doesn't happen at ski resorts where chairlift/gondolas are and it doesn't happen in the rest of the world either. RCFR has mutual aid agreements with the surrounding cities and counties. Between Orlando Fire, Orange County Fire Rescue (I spent a couple of years with Orange County Fire Rescue IT so I know what they have and what agreements are in place) and Osceola County Fire Rescue, an event at the Skyliner can mobilize at least 1/3rd to 1/2 of those required resources, It's still going to take time though as not all of those resources are close by. Those organizations have Mutual Aid agreement with other surrounding counties. The resources are available, but as you do correctly point out, they are not on site.

    How long will it take to do a complete manual evacuation using only emergency personnel? I don't think anyone knows, but it could take 8-10 hours or more.
    Soooo, what would happen if the stoppage and evacuation had to take place on a sunny/humid (always) middle of the day in June/July/August and it took 8 to 10 hours to get everyone out??? I don't think any normal person could handle being stuck in one of those things for that amount of time. What if they couldn't get the line moving at all and this was the only way to evacuate??? What then? Personally, if this is a possibility, I don't think they should of ever built this mode of transportation.
     



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