Agree w/ Pete on Holiday Buffet Extortion

[willis37862]

THIS TOTALLY BLOWS!​

My thoughts exactly! Jerks!

If you think last weeks rant was bad - wait until you hear this weeks. I blew a gasket when I heard their FORCING you to take a photo package with the Princess buffet at Norway now. Really, I'm going to have a stroke on the air one of these days. It also doesn't help that my back is acting up, and the pain is making me - shall we say - grumpy

Pete

We have a thread going about that over on the dining forum and I thought I was going to blow a casket myself over the insanity! I don't want their crappy photos! I want a decent priced meal and to take my own pictures ( which always turn out better than their's anyway)


UGH! They are really starting to tick me off. All I can hope is enough people complain and cancel their ADR's for the above restaurants during the "peak/holiday" times and Disney gets the message. Enough is enough

 

[ADP]

this made me glad I dont have daughters
sad

Boy, you said that right. I have a Daughter who is 7 (soon to be 8) and now we've basically been forced to purchase a picture package everytime we decided to dine at the castle or Akershus. The only princess meal left is dinner at 1900 Park Fare and some would not call that a princess meal since the only princess is Cinderella.

 

[beachwarmer]

UrsulasShadow
Another logical fallacy, to discredit said poster's point of view. Not very nice.

I'm not going to get into a name calling war with you, that seems childish, You have your opinion and I have mine.
I simply pointing out the Cable is Notorious for Price hikes. And if someone chooses to use the product it's their choice. Some like the product and think it's worth the money. Other think it's too much and choose not to use it anymore.
That's all. Same with these prices changes that are being mentioned here.
And all remember, Disney is 100% optional and find it odd that people get so upset if of a special meal goes up $10, then spend the night in a room that costs $200-$300 a night. Where's the perspective?
But I give up trying to point out examples how prices change everwhere.
Just don't demonize me for not thinking they are "extorting" tourists who Choose to spend their vacation money there.

The price of a hotel room and the price increases for dining are very different issues.

I will give you "my" perspective of the difference between a $59/night Pop Century room and a $200-300 room at the WL. At the WL you pay extra for location, room size, sit down restaurants, pool slide and hot tubs, children's activities and crafts, theme, in room amenities, towels at the pool, water pagent at night, beach, access to marina with boat and bike rentals and room service. You can actually list differences and added services and ammenities for the additional dollars. It is then up to each individual to decide if you would rather stay at Pop or pay extra for these "added value" items. You really have stated this point and your perspecitve very clearly in one of your previous posts...you had the choice between hotels...

And yes I'm taking my family to Disney World this June so I'm in the same boat and face the same prices. It's all about what you can afford and can't afford. I'd love to stay the WL but can't afford it so we're doing PC and staying longer, give and take.
But good for those who can afford it, and as long as demand is up for things so will the prices go.


When we discuss the paying of additional money for dining there is nothing additional being added...there is no added value for the addtional dollars. There is no alternative to choose from.

Also to point out that because a person can afford to pay $200 for a hotel room that they should not comment or dislike the increased price for a totally different product is a bit questionable.

I think Disney management is very much hoping that the majority of people hold the same opinion as you do. I think that the majority of the people that are upset about Disney's pricing are not upset about only one thing...this is a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of issue.

First it was CRT price increase...more expensive items dropped off the menus ....next it was DDP dropping the appetizer and tip....next it was Holiday surcharge for buffets.....price increases at Food and Wine booths with smaller sizes.....smaller portions at all restaurants.........overall food quality going down....price increase for Norway Princess meal.....price increase for Wonderland Tea Party....Price increase for Pirate Cruise....parking price going up....weekend vs weekend day hotel pricing....taking the free bread away from meals

That is a lot of price increases without added value, and that can not really be tied to additonal costs or inflation. At this point it is not the money it is the priciple.

 

[kmk1180]

Pete,
I do agree with you on that one,the dinner and photos...the two should stay seperate.
But as for other arguements...again...it's choice.
Since the park opened I'm sure people have complained about price increases and getting value for their money..and will continue to do so.
And since the park opened Disney has been a vacation some can afford very comfortably, Nicely, and affordably. Also there's always been those who can't afford it. And probably shouldn't. If their money is that tight, then Disney isn't the place to spend it. They have other priorities it should be spent on.
Sorry I don't see the big deal. I can't afford Disney's best. I can't justify paying for some of their meals. If they price it beyond me budget...I don't go. But it's my choice, not them extorting money from me because I'm not forced to do it.
That's my whole point.
I guess enough others agree on both sides because enough people are still paying for it while others pass.

 

[kmk1180]

ok before I get killed for saying "and shouldn't".
yes in an ideal world everyone should get to go to Disney
I just meant, if your on a tight budget Disney is a place maybe you
shouldn't go on vacation to just yet.

 

[willis37862]

UrsulasShadow
Another logical fallacy, to discredit said poster's point of view. Not very nice.

I'm not going to get into a name calling war with you, that seems childish, You have your opinion and I have mine.
I simply pointing out the Cable is Notorious for Price hikes. And if someone chooses to use the product it's their choice. Some like the product and think it's worth the money. Other think it's too much and choose not to use it anymore.
That's all. Same with these prices changes that are being mentioned here.
And all remember, Disney is 100% optional and find it odd that people get so upset if of a special meal goes up $10, then spend the night in a room that costs $200-$300 a night. Where's the perspective?
But I give up trying to point out examples how prices change everwhere.
Just don't demonize me for not thinking they are "extorting" tourists who Choose to spend their vacation money there.

Well I can only speak for myself but we don't stay in rooms that are $200-$300 a night because (1) We can't afford it and (2) I like the moderates and don't feel the need to give Disney more money for a room than what I pay at the moderates. So I do I get to complain about the price hikes of the Disney dining ?

I am sorry but I have several problems with what Disney is doing here. The whole month of June as a holiday? And then what happens when the whole summer is a holiday season ? ( You know they will do this if they think they can get away with it) When are families suppose to go that have kids in school? To me it seems they are penalizing people who don't want to take their kids out of school during the year. And who do the character meals appeal to? Families with kids. I'm sorry but for a family vacation destination it seems like they sure are sticking it to families.

 

[meb7]

I just went to Disney in November for a week and was really excited about trying to go back very soon. However they are just raising the prices of everything for just greed apparently... And now I don't know when I will go again. This past time we stayed off site at the Sheraton Vistana and loved it. We go to Daytona every year so it is an easy drive over, however I think the next time I drive over it will be for Aquatica or Islands of Adventure esp with HP coming.
Who knows I love Disney & really want to go, but they are really making me mad.

 

[DisneyKevin]

Just don't demonize me for not thinking they are "extorting" tourists who Choose to spend their vacation money there.

I'm not trying to demonize anyone but I think we are talking about different things here.

I dont think this is about affordability. I think it's about personal comfort with what you are paying. I frequently tell you whether I think something is a "good value" or not.

I think a $150 meal at Jiko is a good value. I think a cold $4.00 hotdog at Casey's is a rip off. It doesnt really have anything to do with price. It about perceived value. Did you get something decent for your money?

I also understand your point about hotels being more expensive during peak season. It's business, but it doesnt usually happen in restaurants UNLESS there is a special circumstance. An example would be a buffet at Thanksgiving because a turkey and all of the finins are included. There is a perceived increase in what you are getting. I dont know if the actual cost is increased but the perceived value is.

I do not see where the Tea Party is including anything else for raising the price. I do not see where the Princess meal is adding anything different becasue it's June. There is no increase in value...just an increase in cost.

Usually, a business will try to take focus away from the higher cost by pointing out what a value the lower pricing is. We hear things like value season, early bird pricing, bargain matinees, but not Disney.

And again....I understand that some businesses charge more during peak seasons...but I think the question begs to be asked.....

Would you be ok with paying a higher price to get into the theme park because it's a holiday?

Were this to happen, I'm betting there would be a public outcry like none we have ever heard and I think Disney knows that. I think that if they thought they could get away with it....it would happen. Instead, they are going to "nickle and dime" you to death. I think forcing you to pay for this cheesy photo package is proof of that.

Kicking the soapbox back under the desk for now.

Kevin

 

[wilde_oscar]

OK, I am not defending Disney, nor defending higher prices. But let me interject an economics lesson in today's post...

Scarcity of Goods... There is only one Castle Suite at WDW. Only one family at a time can stay the night in that suite. If Disney were to open up that suite to the public, charging $10,000 a night, and with the reservation requiring payment in full at time of reservation... with in 24 hours the wait list would be over 5 years. Why? Cause you would be part of a small select group, cause your 5 year old would love you forever, cause it is completely unique. What if we increase that price to $100,000? Are there, would there, still be people that would pay that price? Yup, and you would only have to sell the room one out of 10 nights to make the same money, the group of people that can and will pay that money become a smaller group. For something completely unique, you can charge what people will pay... which in this case, would be a lot.

A commodity is something that is made by a lot of people and price must be competitive, because it is something that is common enough that many people can get into the market, you make very small margins. Like the price of apples at the grocery. If grocer A is charging too much, you goto grocer B for a lower price or maybe you like the service at grocer A and are willing to pay more for the service?

What folks are trying to do is compare The princess breakfast to other breakfasts as a commodity, which it is not. There is only one place on earth that you can eat breakfast with all the Disney Princesses ('cept Cindy). This is a unique item, but many can buy that unique item at the same time. there is however a limit to the number of people that can buy that item in a given day. There are only so many tables and seating's. During high demand (during the holidays) you can charge more, and according to Adam Smith ( the free market, and capitalism) you should charge more. This maintains the balance between price and demand. This is the system of economy we have adopted in this country.

So during the holidays, when the parks are busy... the hotel rooms cost more because demand is up... in Sept they offer free DDP because demand is down. The show has discussed before how there is not really a slow time at WDW any more, as they have normalized the population and increased business in the slow times... it also is true that by increasing the prices, they decrease demand in the busy times. This has to do with supply and staffing levels. If staff were infinite they could charge the same price all year and staff to the level where they have enough people on-site to handle the Christmas/new years crowd all year. But that wastes money, paying people salary and benefits all year when they are only used at that capacity one week a year. So instead of staffing to that level, they normalize the population... increase prices in the busy times (which covers the cost of overtime and increased supply, and increased waste during that period) to decrease demand, and lower prices in Sept. to increase demand... so that they can maintain a fully utilized work force all year.

The answer is not so simple as they are robbing you and are being greedy. I have only begun to touch on the variables that make business sense to increase prices when you are busy, and decrease price when you are slow. There has to be more supply, the suppliers might charge more for increased delivery, or charge more to deliver on a holiday, or on a day that is not normal for delivery. Do you think the suppliers are going to miss an opportunity to up their price? Because you are not staffed to 100% holiday capacity you have to pay the cooks and bussers, etc. over time (it is not logical to staff to 100% of a peak, as you would have idol employees the rest of the time, not that some employees are not idol anyway).

I hate to throw cold water on every ones pyre, but it is good for business to charge more when you are busy, and demand justifies the increase in price.

 

[DisneyKevin]

So accroding to your logic, Disney should be able to double their price of admission on New Year's Eve or July 4th when there are a limited number of available spaces in the parks and lots of people that want them?

Would you accept that...even if the laws of economics suggest it should be true?

 

[wilde_oscar]

So according to your logic, Disney should be able to double their price of admission on New Year's Eve or July 4th when there are a limited number of available spaces in the parks and lots of people that want them?

Would you accept that...even if the laws of economics suggest it should be true?

it is not my logic... it is the way free markets work. Look at how much Hanna Montana tickets are going for, and people are paying it. The same thing would happen with gate prices at the parks. Double, triple... those that can and will pay when demand is high vs. those that can't or won't pay. Absolute free markets usually result in things like the French Revolution. Which is why when tickets for Hanna Montana go on sale there is tiered pricing... not free market prices. Once the scalpers get blocks of tickets you see free market prices. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If the parks used a ticket system like a concert venue, you would easily see people pay $1000 for Christmas and New Years... but they make it a first come first served system.

You made the joke about poor people in WDW, but there is truth to that... it is priced out of many house holds in the US.

Let me give a different way in which the same forces work. The Federal Reserve. The idea is to regulate the money supply so that things like the Great Depression or the run away inflation of the 70's don't happen again. When times are good, and things are expanding, the fed tightens up the money supply vs. when things are bad they let loose the money supply to stimulate the economy. They do this with the interest rates among other things.

Notice the timing on the tax rebate. Roughly a year before the election, same as last time. And who do they target the rebates to, people that will go blow it on the new DVD player with Kung Fu grip, because that spending gets money circulating, and there is something called the money multiplier effect where someone going out and spending $300 will in turn move $3000 to $7500 of money though the economy as that money changes hands.

Anyway, economics is the study of the way things work... I am not defending the holiday price in crease of the buffets, but those that can and will pay it are still going to WDW. The only way to change the suppliers price is to decrease the demand. If no one shows up to the princess dinner at the higher price, well then they lower their price. But the princess breakfast is starting to catch on and go on that must do list, even at the new higher price, ADR's will still be gone 180 days advance, just like BBB or CRT.

Gate tickets would be the same thing, double the price during the holidays, the people that can and will pay are still going. You can only charge what people are willing to pay... and there are a lot of families out there that are willing to pay a lot more for WDW. Add the incentive that paying more, means there will be less crowd... people will jump at the offer. It is just a matter of hitting the right mix of demand at a given cost. E ticket nights proved this... the incentive of less people in the parks alone was not incentive enough for a lot of people to pay extra, but mix less people in the parks with the MVMCP or MNSSHP and you hit a mix that draws a big crowd.

These things are not random, they are spending a lot of money to figure out how to part you from your money and make it their money. They are adjusting prices to what the market is willing to pay, such that demand is level for staffing purposes. That's how the service and hotel industries work from an economic vantage. Ya have to remove the moral relativism when observing market forces, the market doesn't care if it is right or wrong, it is just tring to get the max amount of money for the least amount of service at a given time.

 

[wilde_oscar]

So accroding to your logic, Disney should be able to double their price of admission on New Year's Eve or July 4th when there are a limited number of available spaces in the parks and lots of people that want them?

Would you accept that...even if the laws of economics suggest it should be true?

and to answer the question more directly, it would not matter to me. I do not goto the parks during peak or holiday season, I go in Feb and Sept. The reason for this is two fold, I am cheap and I hate crowds.

 

[wishspirit]

Wow! I am not liking these ideas at all!

I HATE the idea of segregated fastpassing, which is what it would be. This 'richest' getting first dibs is not fair. My family are DVC owners, but i would not be happy to go infront of a family who have saved and saved for a nice vacation at disney but could only afford value. I feel that is wrong. They have just as much right to the fastpasses as anyone. I have been to plenty of moderate and value resorts in my time, but if disney did this i would go OFF PROPERTY, and encourage my family to sell the timeshare.

I dont like the idea that they are raising food prices too! I know i can't really compain in the sense that it is still fairly cheap compaired to prices in England, but for the quality of food they produce it isnt worth it! We have always hired a car if going for anything more than a week (so we can go to, if i dare say it, Universal and Seaworld). We bring our own lunches into the parks (i know, im such a rebel!), and we only eat at Disney on rare occasions. We love a chain called Bob Evans, so we wil drive out ot eat there, and boy what a difference in price for basicaly the same food! Although as time has gone on we are more able to afford Disney dinning prices (esspecially with the exchange rate) it doesnt detract from the fact that Disney is money grabbing!

Anyone for an IHOP instead?

 

[beachwarmer]

By increasing the price beyond a certain price point sales volume decreases by an amount more than proportional to the price increase. This is the principle of the price elasticity of demand (PED). That is an elasticity that measures the nature and degree of the relationship between changes in quantity demanded of a good and changes in its price.

Yes Disney can raise prices. Yes in principle this is good for Disney's bottom line. Yes they can continue to raise prices...but a price point will be found that reduces the demand of the product. This is where the moral relativism that you speak of comes into play.

What I am saying is that Disney has found that price point where I will not be spending $42 for a tea party...I was okay with $28. With all the "nickel and diming" added together disney is now having people examine what price point they are willing to live with for a Disney vacation.

Disney is forcing it's most loyal fans to help them determine their price elsaticity of demand model. Only time will tell if Disney's economics and marketing people are correct in their price elasticity analysis. We as the consumer do have a say....not buying what Disney is selling.

 

[wilde_oscar]

By increasing the price beyond a certain price point sales volume decreases by an amount more than proportional to the price increase. This is the principle of the price elasticity of demand (PED). That is an elasticity that measures the nature and degree of the relationship between changes in quantity demanded of a good and changes in its price.

Yes Disney can raise prices. Yes in principle this is good for Disney's bottom line. Yes they can continue to raise prices...but a price point will be found that reduces the demand of the product. This is where the moral relativism that you speak of comes into play.

What I am saying is that Disney has found that price point where I will not be spending $42 for a tea party...I was okay with $28. With all the "nickel and diming" added together disney is now having people examine what price point they are willing to live with for a Disney vacation.

Disney is forcing it's most loyal fans to help them determine their price elasticity of demand model. Only time will tell if Disney's economics and marketing people are correct in their price elasticity analysis. We as the consumer do have a say....not buying what Disney is selling.

exactly! once people are no longer willing to pay the price the equation changes. but remember to factor in exclusivity, brand and marketing. Why do people pay Prada $10,000 for a purse when a shopping bag will due... Disney knows they still have a lot of upward mobility in price that people are still willing to pay.

 

[beachwarmer]

exactly! once people are no longer willing to pay the price the equation changes. but remember to factor in exclusivity, brand and marketing. Why do people pay Prada $10,000 for a purse when a shopping bag will due... Disney knows they still have a lot of upward mobility in price that people are still willing to pay.

Disney is however doing something that Prada does not. Disney has value rooms to fill, not just the Grand Floridian. They have differentiated their hotel product to target not just the Prada people but the Target people too. Prada has the exclusivity that that you speak of but Disney is selling to everyone. The commercial running here is that a family of four can go to WDW for only $1500 dollars for seven days. It is a status symbol to carry a Prada bag due to the limited supply...Disney is not that kind of a status symbol and they have an lot of hotel rooms to fill. They had empty rooms at the resort over Christmas this year....the busy time.

Disney does have some upward mobility but with a down turn in the economy price will become an even more important factor.

Prada has a different problem of knock off bags......will Disney have the same problem with a knock off theme park taking market share.......Universal will become a option to the masses.

 

[Wish2BinWDW]

I never understand why people always compare a value room at $59 a night, because I have to go to WDW in the summer (I teach and have children in school). I pay a lot more than $59 a night. This year with my AAA discount, I am paying $98.10 during the week and $107.10 on the weekend. The moderate with AAA discount was going to be $161.10 during the week and $170.10 on the weekend. It is costing me about $120 more for my room this year compared to last year at the same time.

This year, I also have to pay more for my food at TS restaurants! This is exactly why I am buying a GPS. I'll be able to find restaurants that serve great food at reasonable prices!

 

[DisneyKevin]

Disney doesnt want just the folks staying at the Grand Floridian dining in their restaurants. They want EVERYONE dining in their restaurants.

If they see a line of cars on Hotel Plaza Blvd headed for Olive Garden, they will do one of their famous surveys and while we may never see the price lowered or the cheesy picture package removed from breakfast with a princess.....you will eventually see a watered down version with a lower price tag.

It's just the way Disney works.

 

[SamIAm21]

I'm just of the mind that they can raise all the prices they want at the buffets, but I don't have to pay it. I don't have to eat at Akershush, I don't have to eat at Crystal Palace or Cinderella's Castle. I'll just take my business to the other side of 535 or use the counter service. We are not completely at their mercy, we can simply choose with our pocketbooks what we want or do not want to buy.

I want to check out that Buffet that Bob raved about at one of the hotels near Downtown Disney. I can't remember which, but I'll go back and research it if anyone is interested.

 

[willis37862]

By increasing the price beyond a certain price point sales volume decreases by an amount more than proportional to the price increase. This is the principle of the price elasticity of demand (PED). That is an elasticity that measures the nature and degree of the relationship between changes in quantity demanded of a good and changes in its price.

Yes Disney can raise prices. Yes in principle this is good for Disney's bottom line. Yes they can continue to raise prices...but a price point will be found that reduces the demand of the product. This is where the moral relativism that you speak of comes into play.

What I am saying is that Disney has found that price point where I will not be spending $42 for a tea party...I was okay with $28. With all the "nickel and diming" added together disney is now having people examine what price point they are willing to live with for a Disney vacation.

Disney is forcing it's most loyal fans to help them determine their price elsaticity of demand model. Only time will tell if Disney's economics and marketing people are correct in their price elasticity analysis. We as the consumer do have a say....not buying what Disney is selling.

Disney is however doing something that Prada does not. Disney has value rooms to fill, not just the Grand Floridian. They have differentiated their hotel product to target not just the Prada people but the Target people too. Prada has the exclusivity that that you speak of but Disney is selling to everyone. The commercial running here is that a family of four can go to WDW for only $1500 dollars for seven days. It is a status symbol to carry a Prada bag due to the limited supply...Disney is not that kind of a status symbol and they have an lot of hotel rooms to fill. They had empty rooms at the resort over Christmas this year....the busy time.

Disney does have some upward mobility but with a down turn in the economy price will become an even more important factor.

Prada has a different problem of knock off bags......will Disney have the same problem with a knock off theme park taking market share.......Universal will become a option to the masses.

I agree with both of your posts I know Disney is a corporation and the almighty dollar is all they care about. And if that is going to be the case they should stop advertising themselves as a family vacation destination. Because they are quickly becoming out of reach for more and more families.