Can you have compassion for someone yet still hold them responsible?

[siren0119]

I know people with really bad financial difficulties, due to outside circumstances, that thankfully my family never had to deal with, they tried to do everything right, but non-preventable issues made their lives unfortunate. So you see, you can try to be a responsible human being, but at any time, things can go bad.

Don't bother trying to reason it out...the shock of accepting an alternative view of the situation might topple him off his ivory pedestal.

 

[EveDallas]

I was homeless for 7 weeks when I was 10.

Why? Because my parents were really bad at managing their money.

I have had struggles but that is not a necessary requirement to believe that people generally are responsible for their economic preparedness.

Obviously, that experience taught you nothing about compassion for your fellow man.

 

[luvsJack]

People seem to be twisting my belief that you should prepare and be held accountable if you don't for a complete lack of understanding.

It is a fact that many of those currently effected by the shutdown could be much better prepared having been taught better money management skills.

The majority of government workers are the middle class, they are not living below the poverty line, but many are living above their middle class means.

Why? Because they have not been taught the skills necessary to properly manage money.

http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017...Workers-According-to-New-CareerBuilder-Survey
A lot of people is 78% of people in America live pay check to pay check.

ONE way to start solving that problem is to start teaching people how to manage their money. Schools need to teach more real life money management skills. How to set a budget, how to stick to that budget, how to balance a checking account, etc. That is not the only way the problem will be solved but it will certainly help.

Poor money management skills are not limited to those living in poverty. From the article I linked:


Sure some of them will have extenuating circumstances but for the majority, they just suck at managing their money.

From the same survey:


The average American does not have the skills necessary to properly set a budget and stick to it. I think that is a shame and that the education system should tackle the problem.

That does not mean I don't have empathy for those suffering.

[/QUOTE]

So in other words you ride a much higher horse than the average American? I mean obviously you have money management skills that most of us mere mortals can only hope to achieve?




My kids were taught all of those things at home. Guess what? Job loss still affects them!

My oldest makes a very good living. He and his wife had a very comfortable savings. Notice I say “had”. When our former leader cut a lot of oil drilling, ds never lost his job like hundreds of others did, his company did everything possible to keep him working. But that entailed a lot of moving from rig to rig and even country to country. He would go over a month without a check several times due to changes in lengths of hitches or having to wait to fly to the next rig. He also had three pay cuts. They had no choice but to go into their savings and it hurt. He is back to a more permanent situation and even has gotten a promotion but the past few years took a toll on them. Yes they live below their means. Yes they were able to pay their bills. But if something horrible happened right now that caused him to get laid off, it would hit them extremely hard.

Dd isn’t a direct federal employee. She works for a contractor at a federal site. Almost all of the employees have been furloughed. The federal workers who are not military at that site have been furloughed. The employees of the contractor make anywhere from $14-30 an hour. Just depends on your position.

Every federal site has contractors with employees who may or may not be working. The army training site close to me had many civilian employees who are not working at this moment. Few of them are paid at middle class wages.


You can’t look at statistics and just assume it’s money management. There are other factors that you are flat out refusing to recognize. Having to pay thousands in medical bills isn’t living above your means. Living in a high cost of living because that is where your job is or where your employer sent you, isn’t money management.

You want to look at a few sites and statistics and just say to yourself “well everyone should be fine and if they aren’t, it’s their fault” and if that helps you sleep at night by all means, continue with your fantasy world.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

This is the most bizarre poll. Hold them responsible? Who has that authority? I mean is there some financial Lord that rules the land? You didn’t save enough so you must work at the tar pits to pay for your financial sin!!! Good God! People see a glimpse of someone’s life and think they know it all. Nobody has any idea! Yes there are people that continually make poor choices. You can still feel bad for them but maybe decide you are done helping them with certain things. That’s not holding them responsible as that’s not anyone’s place. That is just being a human.
Nobody is immune to anything. Even the best laid plans..... Everything can change in an instant. It’s good to always be aware of that. Be kind. Lend a hand if you can but don’t be so smug that you (a general you) will never be in that position. Nothing is written in stone.

 

[Allison]

Why? Because they have not been taught the skills necessary to properly manage money.

I was homeless for 7 weeks when I was 10.

Why? Because my parents were really bad at managing their money.

I have had struggles but that is not a necessary requirement to believe that people generally are responsible for their economic preparedness.

I knew this went back to father issues from your comments on the other thread about your dad.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I was homeless for 7 weeks when I was 10.

Why? Because my parents were really bad at managing their money.

It sounds like you had a scary time as a kid and have concentrated your efforts on never finding yourself in the same position again. But I think that scary time may be clouding your feelings a little. Sure, there are a lot of people in financial trouble because they spend above their means. But I think there are more who simply don't have those means in the first place.

...A lot of people is 78% of people in America live pay check to pay check.

Poor money management skills are not limited to those living in poverty.

From the article I linked:
Nearly one in 10 workers making $100,000+ live paycheck to paycheck, twenty-eight percent of workers making $50,000-$99,999 usually or always live paycheck to paycheck

Sure some of them will have extenuating circumstances but for the majority, they just suck at managing their money.

So, 78% of people are living paycheck to paycheck, but the subset making decent money hardly sounds like the majority to me. Most of that 78% are in the "less than 50,000 range" and I know I would have a hard time saving on that income.

From the same survey:

Still, despite financial woes, there are certain things employees aren't willing to give up. When asked what they'd absolutely not give up, regardless of financial concerns, employees cited:

• Internet connection: 54 percent
• Mobile device (smart phone, tablet, etc.): 53 percent
• Driving: 48 percent
• Pets: 37 percent
• Cable: 21 percent
• Going out to eat: 19 percent
• Traveling: 17 percent
• Education: 13 percent
• Buying gifts for people: 13 percent
• Alcohol: 11 percent

Internet connection / Mobile device - I do think many people could spend less here, but it is becoming harder and harder to do things in today's world without an internet connection at all. When my teen was trying to get a part-time job last summer, one place actually had a paper application. Everywhere else required him to apply on line.

Driving - Again, some places have great public transportation, but in others you really need to drive to have a job. (And the answer isn't just to simply "move" either.) Of course, I don't think everyone needs to buy the fanciest car available!

Pets - I can see why adopting new pets when you can't afford it isn't a wise decision, but I certainly wouldn't turn the pets I have out on the street if I had a financial reversal. They're already part of my family.

Education - So now, if someone is poor, we don't want them to spend money on the very thing that may lift them out of poverty?

Cable / Going out to eat / Traveling / Buying gifts for people / Alcohol - These, I'll give you...to a point, at least. I expect many people do overspend on these items - but I believe in balance, too. My mom died of cancer in her 50s. If she had spent her whole life giving up all these things to save for a retirement she never got to enjoy, she'd certainly have regretted it. I'm not saying we should all buy all these things all the time, but I think there's a point where it's OK to balance saving and living your life.

When do you feel a person has "enough" savings to start enjoying some of their income at the time they make it?

ONE way to start solving that problem is to start teaching people how to manage their money. Schools need to teach more real life money management skills. How to set a budget, how to stick to that budget, how to balance a checking account, etc. That is not the only way the problem will be solved but it will certainly help...

The average American does not have the skills necessary to properly set a budget and stick to it. I think that is a shame and that the education system should tackle the problem.

These parts of your post I do agree with quite a bit. My DS had one budget project (in an elective, at that) and it scared the you-know-what out of him - because he doesn't really remember the time in our lives when were on a strict budget, and couldn't figure out how he'd have the things we do now starting out.

After laughing (just a little) I explained to him about what he missed, and that he'd survive. But it got me thinking: when we were in that place in our lives, so were most of the people we looked to for comparison. It's not like that for young people today, who compare themselves to everyone on social media. I think that's one of the main reasons people who do have enough to save, don't. They see the "baseline" as a lot higher, and not having things is way more "lonely" than it used to be.

 

[ronandannette]

Obviously, that experience taught you nothing about compassion for your fellow man.

In some people, surviving their own personal misfortunes leads them to believe that if they "pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps" then everybody else darn well should too. Considering that @kdonnel was apparently a child at the time, I think there may be something just a little different going on. More like a "whistling in the dark" thing where one convinces themselves that if they do (or don't do) x-y-z thing, they will be safe and that the bogeyman only finds those who aren't smart or diligent enough.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I was homeless for 7 weeks when I was 10.

Why? Because my parents were really bad at managing their money.

I have had struggles but that is not a necessary requirement to believe that people generally are responsible for their economic preparedness.

This is actually telling about you. And I don't mean that in a bad way.

All of us learn to cope differently with things that we've experienced in our lives; traumas.

It's easier to think that if we follow rules, "prepare", eat right, excercise, marry the right person, whatever, nothing bad will ever happen to us again. Some of us go through our lives fervently holding on to beliefs like that, because the thought of something like what we experienced before happening to us again is, well, unfathomable.

We may come to believe we have complete control over such events. But in reality, we don't.

Sure, we may be able to prepare for some things, but there are always other things around the corner. That's how life is. (And on this, @Boardwalk Jedi and I are on the same page in regularly seeing catastrophic medical events that can occur out of the blue.)

I think that most people seem to realize this and therefore have a type of compassion for others when they have things happen, knowing it may be them or their loved ones next time. There's no shaming there, nor should there be.

I had traumas in my childhood, too, and I have different ways of dealing with them. Many of us did, and do.

Think PTSD from these types of events isn't real? It hit home for me yesterday when a social worker mentioned she thinks my mother has some PTSD about losing her father when she was just 11 years old (some 82 years ago). I am also seeing some other issues of PTSD with her from her living circumstances when she was growing up in the middle of WWII; things that are coming up now from back then, etc.

Traumatic circumstances can stay with us for a lifetime and we may find ways to cope with them that may be quite a bit out there (some may call it a form of anxiety), but we don't always even realize it because our beliefs have become so ingrained in us, we can't see it any other way.

 

[mjkacmom]

In some people, surviving their own personal misfortunes leads them to believe that if they "pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps" then everybody else darn well should too. Considering that @kdonnel was apparently a child at the time, I think there may be something just a little different going on. More like a "whistling in the dark" thing where one convinces themselves that if they do (or don't do) x-y-z thing, they will be safe and that the bogeyman only finds those who aren't smart or diligent enough.

It’s self preservation, it’s human nature. It’s people who harshly judge parents whose child dies in an accident, calling them bad parents. If I’m a good parent, my kids are safe.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

In some people, surviving their own personal misfortunes leads them to believe that if they "pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps" then everybody else darn well should too. Considering that @kdonnel was apparently a child at the time, I think there may be something just a little different going on. More like a "whistling in the dark" thing where one convinces themselves that if they do (or don't do) x-y-z thing, they will be safe and that the bogeyman only finds those who aren't smart or diligent enough.

Exactly.

^ We were writing at the same time, I hit Post Reply too soon.

 

[Allison]

It’s self preservation, it’s human nature. It’s people who harshly judge parents whose child dies in an accident, calling them bad parents. If I’m a good parent, my kids are safe.

I completely agree. I said the same thing in the other thread. It is a coping mechanism.

 

[ronandannette]

It’s self preservation, it’s human nature. It’s people who harshly judge parents whose child dies in an accident, calling them bad parents. If I’m a good parent, my kids are safe.

{{shudder}} It still breaks my heart to remember some of the hateful vitriol that was spewed at the parents of the little boy eaten by the alligator and the little boy killed at the revolving restaurant. Sadly, I have very close loved ones who suffered a similar incident and believe me, it beats the urge to judge out of you in a heartbeat.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I was homeless for 7 weeks when I was 10.

Why? Because my parents were really bad at managing their money.

I have had struggles but that is not a necessary requirement to believe that people generally are responsible for their economic preparedness.

So. I take it you're abdicating personal responsibility and blaming your parents and claiming you were a victim of circumstance? Alright then. How bout you be consistent and start blaming the government shut down on the perps who made the bad decisions to cause it rather than those in circumstances affected by it.

 

[Southernmiss]

OP would do well to seek a therapist to work through HIS issues instead of denigrating those affected by a shutdown or responding on a message board.

It's obvious he has things eating him up on the inside.

It's called compassion and taking responsibility.

 

[Owlpost23]

It's impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't own boots to begin with.

 

[LSUmiss]

I don't think anyone can really be immune to natural disasters, especially with the current changing climate. I will say however that there are places people shouldn't live. If you need huge pumps running 24 hours a day to keep your land dry you are in a place people shouldn't be living. If you have to have levies and flood walls to keep your land dry you are in a place people shouldn't be living. If fresh water has to be piped in from hundreds of miles away you are in a place people shouldn't be living. We as a species feel we can just live anywhere when that isn't realistic and it will bite us hard in the future.

I do feel bad for individuals when they live somewhere that used to be safe to live but isn't any longer but I don't really feel all that bad when they live somewhere we, as a species, shouldn't be and they pay the price. The hubris of mankind will speed our demise.

Well, then your infrastructure better get an upgrade b/c it seems like 1/2 the country will need to move to whatever utopia you live in.

And the 3rd largest river in the world runs through the middle of the country AND provides many goods & commodities for the rest of the country. So, you need those ppl to live & work in those areas. Where are the millions of ppl who live in the areas supposed to move to???

What about tornados in the Midwest, earthquakes on the west coast...I think most of the country will need to move to wherever you live then.

I think it’s funny you mention hubris. How arrogant it is to believe that ppl should live where you deem appropriate!

 

[portocall]

I answered your poll before I read your examples. My mistake. The examples are just... Wow. I personally was thinking about someone close to me that had a gambling addiction. I showed compassion by continuing to be in their life, advocating for help, and providing occasional meals. I made her take responsibility by refusing to give her money or paying her debts.

Sometimes events happen out of anyone's control. From what I read, no one should bother living anywhere. Hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, flooding, avalanches, earthquakes, blizzards. No state in our nation is immune from possible doom.

 

[LSUmiss]

Also, if it turns out that the city you live in is now at risk for more serious and extended weather than it had been in the past, you should have planned to sell your home (to someone who isn't planning) and planned to save enough money to move somewhere else (that the people who are planning haven't found yet, thus jacking up the housing costs and cost of living).

Example of that...after Katrina many ppl sold their homes & left parts of NOLA in a mass exodus only to be hit by a major river flood a few years ago that wiped them out of everything again. Many ppl had lived in these parts of the metro area for generations before Katina & reluctantly went to live in a place that had never flooded (and the river that ended up flooding didn’t have levees & the area didn’t have pumps-I know that was the threshold for an acceptable place to live for a pp) b/c they believed it was the responsible thing to do. Well guess how that worked for them?? Meanwhile, ppl who stayed in the NOLA area haven’t seen anything like that complete level of destruction since Katrina. It’s not to say to can’t happen again, but natural disasters can happen anywhere even if you live in an area that hasn’t had any issues before.

 

[LSUmiss]

Not sure where all you may be referring too but the levies makes me think of NOLA. To be fair, the reason the levies broke is that they weren’t maintained the way they were supposed to be. The people of that great city, trusted their officials and it wasn’t done.

I mean I get what you are saying. Just saying, I am fairly sure most of the people there though they were safe. I hope and pray that now they are.

Exactly. Properly maintained the levees & pumps keep us safer than most areas who are prone to unexpected rivers cresting above flood stage etc.

 

[LSUmiss]

NOLA, much of the southern FL panhandle that has been "drained", large parts of California. These are areas that people just shouldn't live and especially not in the numbers they do. We like to think, as a species not necessarily individuals, that every place on the planet is ours but when you require billions of dollars of engineering just to make an area inhabitable you are living in a place you just shouldn't. Rivers shouldn't run dry because their flow has been diverted to provide water for a hundred million people spread across multiple states.

And so how do you propose we relocate all the ppl who have been living in this 300 yr old city & other similar places?? What’s your plan?