What happens IF Riviera restriction are lifted?

[katandmouse]

Helping this thread get back on track...IF the restrictions are lifted, there will be much celebration from all corners! The handful of people who have sold their contracts for a loss will be furious, but drowned out by the collective cheering of the 99.9% of DVC members.

But I agree with the consensus here, and don't think they will be lifted anytime in the foreseeable future.

Plus it would only help Riviera owners. So far I only know of the one contract that sold, but if the restrictions were removed, all the other ones that have been sitting would have a much better chance of selling for close to their asking price...
(Not that DVC cares about that.)

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I think they would have a huge legal mess if they removed the restrictions. I would be furious if I was the one who sold their Riviera contract for $100.

It's outlined in the contracts that buyers sign that the restrictions could be lifted. Nothing to induce a legal mess if they did.

 

[ELMC]

Plus it would only help Riviera owners. So far I only know of the one contract that sold, but if the restrictions were removed, all the other ones that have been sitting would have a much better chance of selling for close to their asking price...
(Not that DVC cares about that.)

Exactly. They're not looking to help owners sell. They're looking to help owners use their timeshare and come to Disney and spend more money.

 

[DSLRuser]

Let’s say you buy resale Riviera points that are bargain priced due to the restrictions. Then, at some point in the future, new contracts can be resold without any restrictions.

"I bought resale Riviera points that are bargain priced due to the restrictions. but now, new contracts can be resold without any restrictions."

It all depends on how they write up the changes. But i would guess your reverse grandfathering would be what happens.

 

[Spark65]

Wow Disney people can only think of resale. To be honest I will go till I can't then I will turn over my points to my children. My wife, children and I have been going for 20 years and it has never disappointed. My son after serving his country in Irag and Syria could only think of going to Disney when he came home. If you want a real investment there are much better things than luxury goods which include timeshares.

I am disappointed to see so many here who nickel and dime everything including their vacation must be stressful just thinking about it. I will buy at Riviera to get another 50 years which I will pass on to family because they love going to Disney not because they see a way to make money but to make dreams.

I am a Poly owner as well It was our resort of choice for many years but as my family grows larger choices are needed and yes I have stayed at the bungalows I had to before I died.

 

[Madame]

Wow Disney people can only think of resale. To be honest I will go till I can't then I will turn over my points to my children. My wife, children and I have been going for 20 years and it has never disappointed. My son after serving his country in Irag and Syria could only think of going to Disney when he came home. If you want a real investment there are much better things than luxury goods which include timeshares.

I am disappointed to see so many here who nickel and dime everything including their vacation must be stressful just thinking about it. I will buy at Riviera to get another 50 years which I will pass on to family because they love going to Disney not because they see a way to make money but to make dreams.

I am a Poly owner as well It was our resort of choice for many years but as my family grows larger choices are needed and yes I have stayed at the bungalows I had to before I died.

How is planning ahead nickel and diming?
My kids might not have the means nor the interest to hold our contracts. I would like, as a responsible parent (who is not so wealthy that these things do not matter), to not burden them with a timeshare they cannot easily offload.

Most of us are not cheap (we wouldn’t frequent Disney at all if we were), but nor are we willing to throw money away.

DVC is supposed to save you money. That is literally the entire premise. There are other ways to do Disney (including point rental). Up until now the attraction for many buyers has been the ability to sell a contract quickly and recouping some of the initial outlay.

Not looking to maximize on a system which is extremely expensive and whose raison d’être is to save money, seems foolish, but to each his/her own

 

[Sandisw]

Honestly, I'm starting to get the impression that inventory is getting taken by the waitlists immediately after it becomes available, it's just DVC is very lax in manually okaying the match.

I've had 3 waitlists match in the past month, every single one I only found out about when contacting member services about something else. Out of the inventory freed up by my waitlists matching, only one day got returned to the RAT.

This would create the situation that, if two rooms were released matching your waitlist, you would see one room available on the RAT because the other room had silently matched.

Wow Disney people can only think of resale. To be honest I will go till I can't then I will turn over my points to my children. My wife, children and I have been going for 20 years and it has never disappointed. My son after serving his country in Irag and Syria could only think of going to Disney when he came home. If you want a real investment there are much better things than luxury goods which include timeshares.

I am disappointed to see so many here who nickel and dime everything including their vacation must be stressful just thinking about it. I will buy at Riviera to get another 50 years which I will pass on to family because they love going to Disney not because they see a way to make money but to make dreams.

I am a Poly owner as well It was our resort of choice for many years but as my family grows larger choices are needed and yes I have stayed at the bungalows I had to before I died.

It is more about RIV being a different product. One of the benefits of a DVC timeshare has always been it retaining its value over other timeshares.

While I don’t ever think someone should buy with that as a deciding factor, I do think it plays a role. And, if one finds themselves in the need to sell, the pool of potential buyers will be smaller due to it being a specific resort timeshare.

IMO, one would have to love the resort enough to not mind having to stay only there. And, the big unknown is what booking there will be like in a few years when you have more restricted contracts out there.

I can’t imagine being a RIV owner and finding that booking was impossible for rooms I needed, even at 11 months. Some could even be priced out. Say they bought with intention of studio stays, and all of a sudden can’t get any, no matter type. Resale owners who are restricted will book a trip, even when they aren’t sure, so they don’t lose points.

I think what it does is make the product something’s unique to certain buyers, If they find this model doesn’t work, then they at least has the forethought to put in language that allows them to change it!

 

[Bing Showei]

I am a Poly owner as well It was our resort of choice for many years but as my family grows larger choices are needed and yes I have stayed at the bungalows I had to before I died.

By this, do you mean your life needs have changed? That maybe a studio alone was no longer a good fit for you and that the options Riviera offered does address those needs?

Needing to sell does not equate to “wanting to make money.” This is something I’ve heard guides conflate with their new and improved sales spiels. Most owners don’t go into the system looking to make money hand over fist. The new restrictions seem to use the few owners who look to make money on the system to drop a giant hammer on the ownership as a whole.

You’re a father. Let’s say you have a child who is diagnosed with a sudden medical condition and you need to focus all your resources on addressing that. How important will your Disney timeshare be at that point?

Most owners don’t buy to sell. But life happens. Why would you be encouraged by Disney adopting a system wide policy that may in the future impair your ability to make choices that best serve your family?

I will buy at Riviera to get another 50 years which I will pass on to family because they love going to Disney not because they see a way to make money but to make dreams.

Making dreams is great when things in life are going well, but when things go south, most of us would rather be able to make ends meet.

Disney doesn’t like to talk about that buzz kill, just the dreams part. It’s a much easier sell.

 

[rspencer38]

By this, do you mean your life needs have changed? That maybe a studio alone was no longer a good fit for you and that the options Riviera offered does address those needs?

Needing to sell does not equate to “wanting to make money.” This is something I’ve heard guides conflate with their new and improved sales spiels. Most owners don’t go into the system looking to make money hand over fist. The new restrictions seem to use the few owners who look to make money on the system to drop a giant hammer on the ownership as a whole.

You’re a father. Let’s say you have a child who is diagnosed with a sudden medical condition and you need to focus all your resources on addressing that. How important will your Disney timeshare be at that point?

Most owners don’t buy to sell. But life happens. Why would you be encouraged by Disney adopting a system wide policy that may in the future impair your ability to make choices that best serve your family?

Making dreams is great when things in life are going well, but when things go south, most of us would rather be able to make ends meet.

Disney doesn’t like to talk about that buzz kill, just the dreams part. It’s a much easier sell.

Using your example, I could literally buy any resort direct and if something drastic happened and I sold, I would likely lose money. As time passes, the lower the impact of the loss will be. I get that things happen but ultimately if i have to sell for loss due to a sudden life change, than I sell for a loss and move on.

 

[Bing Showei]

Using your example, I could literally buy any resort direct and if something drastic happened and I sold, I would likely lose money. As time passes, the lower the impact of the loss will be. I get that things happen but ultimately if i have to sell for loss due to a sudden life change, than I sell for a loss and move on.

Right. And where do you end up going to sell that for a loss? You’re kind of making my point for me.

My point wasn’t that one had to buy resale, my point is the new restrictions makes buying direct a bigger risk. The old Disney timeshare product actually made buying direct a far better proposition than the new one. The new product today guarantees you will lose money on a resell, as the product you sell will be far inferior to what you bought.

Disney can then buy back that inferior contract and resell it shiny new. That’s a situation that’s great for Disney, but it does not do anything beneficial for owners.

 

[rspencer38]

Right. And where do you end up going to sell that for a loss? You’re kind of making my point for me.

My point wasn’t that one had to buy resale, my point is the new restrictions makes buying direct a bigger risk. The old Disney timeshare product actually made buying direct a far better proposition than the new one. The new product today guarantees you will lose money on a resell, as the product you sell will be far inferior to what you bought.

Disney can then buy back that inferior contract and resell it shiny new. That’s a situation that’s great for Disney, but it does not do anything beneficial for owners.

Yes but obviously you can't have resales without direct purchases. Most people who bought direct or resale for many many years never imagined that they could flip their DVC for profit. It's absolutely fantastic that some owners are in the position but the reality is that you should never consider a DVC purchase if that is the tipping point. Often perspective owners neglect the savings they incur while owning DVC (whether directly through cheaper accomodations or direct benefits such as gold AP). When I did my own justification, I knew that it is possible I might sell for a loss in the worst case scenario, however, when factoring in accommodation savings and huge savings on gold APs (which I understand are not guaranteed but in the immediate save us substantial amounts of money) I very much soften that loss. I understand that some resale contracts would be cheaper but I would also be sacrificing other aspects such as time, access to new resorts, location etc...

Also, no one can definitely say that in 15 years or so that my Riviera contract won't make money if I decide to sell, just like no one could say the same thing about Poly or VGF when they first opened.

 

[Bing Showei]

Also, no one can definitely say that in 15 years or so that my Riviera contract won't make money if I decide to sell, just like no one could say the same thing about Poly or VGF when they first opened.

Absolutely true. The difference is, when that prospective buyer bought PVB, VGF, they bought into a points system that afforded them a lot of flexibility. If they had to sell, they could sell that same flexibility to the next owner. Many Disney timeshare owners would never have considered ever owning a timeshare save for that flexibility.

That was a very different product than what Disney is selling today.

Yes but obviously you can't have resales without direct purchases.

Absolutely true again. I am not arguing otherwise. In fact, my argument is that the restrictions are in fact DAMAGING the direct proposition which, as owners, we all need to thrive to sustain and support the system. If Disney goes down the path of reducing resale value to industry standard in the short-sighted interest of increasing direct sales, the future of that ecosystem is threatened.

Every owner direct or resale, no matter how long they plan to hold onto their timeshare should be concerned about these restrictions.

 

[ELMC]

Yes but obviously you can't have resales without direct purchases. Most people who bought direct or resale for many many years never imagined that they could flip their DVC for profit. It's absolutely fantastic that some owners are in the position but the reality is that you should never consider a DVC purchase if that is the tipping point.

I completely agree. Especially given the dynamics of purchasing today, I don't think that is at all a realistic expectation.

Often perspective owners neglect the savings they incur while owning DVC (whether directly through cheaper accomodations or direct benefits such as gold AP). When I did my own justification, I knew that it is possible I might sell for a loss in the worst case scenario, however, when factoring in accommodation savings and huge savings on gold APs (which I understand are not guaranteed but in the immediate save us substantial amounts of money) I very much soften that loss. I understand that some resale contracts would be cheaper but I would also be sacrificing other aspects such as time, access to new resorts, location etc...

But here's the thing: under today's pricing model I do not think those accommodation savings are there. And if they are to be found, they are a fraction of what they used to be. Look at it this way. At $188 purchase price and assuming an $18 point rental cost, it will take ten years of renting points just to equal your purchase price today of RIV. But wait, we haven't even accounted for maintenance fees or cost of use of money which is a very real thing. So best case scenario we are looking at savings starting in what, 15, 20 years? A lot can change in that time; who knows if those savings will even be there.

Juxtapose that to people who bought BWV resale in 2012. They're already in the black on an annualized basis AND they have 100% appreciation on the purchase value of their contract. The times they have a changed.

Also, no one can definitely say that in 15 years or so that my Riviera contract won't make money if I decide to sell, just like no one could say the same thing about Poly or VGF when they first opened.

I can. VGF is a long-standing, beloved, boutique pocket of DVC that went to market at a price significantly lower than RIV. Poly checks some of those boxes as well, but because of the structure has not been as successful in holding its value as VGF. While VGF has exceeded its opening price, Poly is routinely selling at a loss. I simply cannot see an environment where RIV resale prices exceed $200 per point. Which means it will almost definitely happen, at which point my head will explode.

 

[ELMC]

Wow Disney people can only think of resale. To be honest I will go till I can't then I will turn over my points to my children. My wife, children and I have been going for 20 years and it has never disappointed. My son after serving his country in Irag and Syria could only think of going to Disney when he came home. If you want a real investment there are much better things than luxury goods which include timeshares.

I am disappointed to see so many here who nickel and dime everything including their vacation must be stressful just thinking about it. I will buy at Riviera to get another 50 years which I will pass on to family because they love going to Disney not because they see a way to make money but to make dreams.

I am a Poly owner as well It was our resort of choice for many years but as my family grows larger choices are needed and yes I have stayed at the bungalows I had to before I died.

I can see that this is your first post...welcome to the DIS!

I am sorry you are disappointed by what you are reading and I am happy that you refrained from judging others, just as you would probably hope to not be judged as well. Everyone has different perspectives, and while I am happy for you that you were able to cross the Poly Bungalow off of your bucket list, it might be helpful to understand that there are many out there who will NEVER be able to justify spending close to $2,000 for one night in a hotel room.

Money is a tricky thing. Some people get enjoyment by spending it freely - others can't enjoy spending it unless they know they did so analytically. Both strategies work depending on the type of person you are, but it would be a mistake for those from one group to judge those from the other.

Thank you for sharing your insights, they were very helpful!

 

[rspencer38]

But here's the thing: under today's pricing model I do not think those accommodation savings are there. And if they are to be found, they are a fraction of what they used to be. Look at it this way. At $188 purchase price and assuming an $18 point rental cost, it will take ten years of renting points just to equal your purchase price today of RIV. But wait, we haven't even accounted for maintenance fees or cost of use of money which is a very real thing. So best case scenario we are looking at savings starting in what, 15, 20 years? A lot can change in that time; who knows if those savings will even be there.

Juxtapose that to people who bought BWV resale in 2012. They're already in the black on an annualized basis AND they have 100% appreciation on the purchase value of their contract. The times they have a changed.


I can. VGF is a long-standing, beloved, boutique pocket of DVC that went to market at a price significantly lower than RIV. Poly checks some of those boxes as well, but because of the structure has not been as successful in holding its value as VGF. While VGF has exceeded its opening price, Poly is routinely selling at a loss. I simply cannot see an environment where RIV resale prices exceed $200 per point. Which means it will almost definitely happen, at which point my head will explode.

So back when VGF opened they sold for $144 per pt which in today's dollars is approximately $166, so while cheaper than the current RIV, it's not a huge difference. But further to my original point, the value isn't just in what the resale value holds. You need to factor in savings on accommodations as well as other benefits if necessary.

So for me, if I decide to sell in 10 years because life has changed, here is the math that leads me to believe it's still a good deal.

I bought at $188 per point for a total of 155 points ($29,140). If I sold in 10 years at the very very low price of $100 per point that has been mentioned here multiple times (which I think is ridiculous) then I will make back $15,500 for a total loss on my contract of $13640. If I factor in my dues for those 10 years ($1288 per year for 10 years - I know it will increase but who knows by how much), it will cost me $12880. So dues and loss on contract will run about $2652 per year which ends costing between $200-$250 per night depending on length of stay etc...

I haven't even included that huge savings on Gold AP that brings that per night value down or any rental years where I cover my expenses plus make a little extra. I fully understand the dues will increase but so will everything else during those 10 years including the price of contracts.

It certainly isn't like the early years of DVC but to me the value is still there.

 

[ELMC]

So back when VGF opened they sold for $144 per pt which in today's dollars is approximately $166, so while cheaper than the current RIV, it's not a huge difference. But further to my original point, the value isn't just in what the resale value holds. You need to factor in savings on accommodations as well as other benefits if necessary.

So for me, if I decide to sell in 10 years because life has changed, here is the math that leads me to believe it's still a good deal.

I bought at $188 per point for a total of 155 points ($29,140). If I sold in 10 years at the very very low price of $100 per point that has been mentioned here multiple times (which I think is ridiculous) then I will make back $15,500 for a total loss on my contract of $13640. If I factor in my dues for those 10 years ($1288 per year for 10 years - I know it will increase but who knows by how much), it will cost me $12880. So dues and loss on contract will run about $2652 per year which ends costing between $200-$250 per night depending on length of stay etc...

I haven't even included that huge savings on Gold AP that brings that per night value down or any rental years where I cover my expenses plus make a little extra. I fully understand the dues will increase but so will everything else during those 10 years including the price of contracts.

It certainly isn't like the early years of DVC but to me the value is still there.

Thanks for sharing your thinking and for the most part I agree with your numbers. The thing is, though, that in order for you to get to that $200-250 a night you have included selling your contract to recoup a significant portion of your investment. But what if you don't sell?

My issue is not with DVC as a product, my issue is that similar to most things with Disney these days, the prices have gotten out of control. You want to charge me $60 for my steak, fine, I'll probably even pay it. But for a product that was built on the foundation of savings, it's not ok in my book.

 

[Sandisw]

So back when VGF opened they sold for $144 per pt which in today's dollars is approximately $166, so while cheaper than the current RIV, it's not a huge difference. But further to my original point, the value isn't just in what the resale value holds. You need to factor in savings on accommodations as well as other benefits if necessary.

So for me, if I decide to sell in 10 years because life has changed, here is the math that leads me to believe it's still a good deal.

I bought at $188 per point for a total of 155 points ($29,140). If I sold in 10 years at the very very low price of $100 per point that has been mentioned here multiple times (which I think is ridiculous) then I will make back $15,500 for a total loss on my contract of $13640. If I factor in my dues for those 10 years ($1288 per year for 10 years - I know it will increase but who knows by how much), it will cost me $12880. So dues and loss on contract will run about $2652 per year which ends costing between $200-$250 per night depending on length of stay etc...

I haven't even included that huge savings on Gold AP that brings that per night value down or any rental years where I cover my expenses plus make a little extra. I fully understand the dues will increase but so will everything else during those 10 years including the price of contracts.

It certainly isn't like the early years of DVC but to me the value is still there.

Just an FYI, I bought into VGF direct for $125 a point, 75 points. Sold it 3 years later for $152. It may have one point gone to $144, but it started at $125.

 

[ELMC]

Just an FYI, I bought into VGF direct for $125 a point, 75 points. Sold it 3 years later for $152. It may have one point gone to $144, but it started at $125.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Sandisw]

Are you sure about that?

Yes. Bought on the Disney Cruise in summer 2014. I only bought because I sold a 50 point. BLT contract for $104.

 

[ELMC]

Yes. Bought on the Disney Cruise in summer 2014. I only bought because I sold a 50 point. BLT contract for $104.

Fascinating. Were you able to get that deal because you were on a cruise? Everything I saw about VGF was that it started at $145 but you could get an owner's discount of $5 per point. I balked because of the price because apparently I am super cheap. But at $125 I probably would have bought. Had I only known.