What happens IF Riviera restriction are lifted?

[Chrisizzle]

I know this is pure speculation but wondering if there are educated guesses due to contracts or laws.

Let’s say you buy resale Riviera points that are bargain priced due to the restrictions. Then, at some point in the future, those restrictions are lifted so all new Disney direct purchasers can stay at any DVC resort. EDIT/CORRECTION: Then, at some point in the future, new contracts can be resold without any restrictions.

Would you as a restricted resale buyer then get all the resorts too?

I suppose it’s the opposite of “grandfathering”, where you get to keep your existing bonuses when terms are restricted over time.

Sometimes companies (not Disney specifically) give old customers access to new features offered to new customers. A ‘rising tide lifts all ships’ scenario.

 

[FrostyNaples]

Let’s say you buy resale Riviera points that are bargain priced due to the restrictions. Then, at some point in the future, those restrictions are lifted so all new Disney direct purchasers can stay at any DVC resort.

There are no restrictions for Direct purchasers now... As for your other thought, it would be unprecedented

 

[Chrisizzle]

There are no restrictions for Direct purchasers now... As for your other thought, it would be unprecedented

Thanks and I made the correction.

 

[jarestel]

If they lifted the resale restrictions, I'm sure that DVD would make them retroactive to anyone who had purchased a Riviera contract as there would be no reason not to. However, like the recurring hope that extensions will be offered at the 2042 resorts, this would be very unlikely to happen.

 

[Yinn]

If they lifted the resale restrictions, I'm sure that DVD would make them retroactive to anyone who had purchased a Riviera contract as there would be no reason not to. However, like the recurring hope that extensions will be offered at the 2042 resorts, this would be very unlikely to happen.

I agree with this. From an administrative perspective, DVD doesn't lose anything. It is the seller that lose out on value in this case. However, if DVD were to track all of those contracts seperately, there is now administrative overhead and operational costs in determining the eligibility of a small amount of contracts.

Putting probability of this occuring aside, I'm not sure there's any RIV contracts out there that are a good value. I haven't seen much if any RIV listings, but I hear they're $100/ppt vs $175/ppt direct (adjusted from $188 for incentives) That's 57% of Direct Pricing, or a 43% savings. Comparitively, reading through the ROFR thread and resales available, AKV is 57% of Direct, Aulani is 50%, BLT is 59%, OKW is 58%, PBV is 54%, SSR is 58% and based on my tracking Disney seems to have a 60% target for ROFR. So it doesn't seem like RIV is reselling at a significant discount over any other non-restricted DVCs. So unless you really want it as your home resort, I don't think the purchase for the resale discount is worth it in this case.

 

[Sandisw]

I agree that if Disney were to ever lift restrictions, then it would be for all. But, given that they put them in, I can’t see them ever been changed for RIV. If the restricted contracts down the road became a problem, the only thing I can see if that future resorts would be changed.

So far, Disney has never reversed restrictions and I doubt they ever will.

 

[AvidDisReader]

I happened to see the August Sales for RIV and it was not very robust. Will need to keep monitoring to see how sales progress, because maybe there is enough talk of restrictions that is causing sales to be slow. It would not surprise to see a reverse on the resale restrictions if sales stay sluggish thru the first quarter of 2020---With Reflection coming around the corner I do not believe it would be in the best interest to have an undersold RIV completing with the new Reflections.

 

[Lumpy1106]

I agree that if Disney were to ever lift restrictions, then it would be for all. But, given that they put them in, I can’t see them ever been changed for RIV. If the restricted contracts down the road became a problem, the only thing I can see if that future resorts would be changed.

So far, Disney has never reversed restrictions and I doubt they ever will.

IOW - the beatings will continue until morale improves?

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

What would happen? We would buy direct in a heartbeat.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

However, if DVD were to track all of those contracts seperately, there is now administrative overhead and operational costs in determining the eligibility of a small amount of contracts.

It's not that much effort or difficulty. It's literally a database flag in estoppel and closing of a resale.

 

[suemom2kay]

So those that have read the POS for Riviera, could they even lift restrictions on current contracts without re-writing the contracts? Could they then put the restrictions BACK at a future date on said contracts? I know the POS for the RR contracts is written with more leeway, but not quite sure how that works.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

I agree that if Disney were to ever lift restrictions, then it would be for all. But, given that they put them in, I can’t see them ever been changed for RIV. If the restricted contracts down the road became a problem, the only thing I can see if that future resorts would be changed.

So far, Disney has never reversed restrictions and I doubt they ever will.

There's a first time for everything and this may be it. Why would anybody buy one of the existing resale contract that are out there with the restriction that Disney has placed on it? Unless your getting a real bargain I would think anybody that wanted RIV would buy direct not resale unless again it was a real deal...JMHO.

 

[Yinn]

It's not that much effort or difficulty. It's literally a database flag in estoppel and closing of a resale.

From a technology perspective. What about dealing with the people?

Hi, is this contract subject to the resale restriction?
Hi, I'm looking to buy a resale and I wanted to check to see if it's eligible to be used at other resorts?
Hi, I just bought a contract on the resale market and I can't seem to book any reservations outside of Rivieria?

What's the total cost inclusive of customer service, phone usage, email support, etc. the associated operational costs of the increased volume, survey evaluations of such communications? Pennies on a small scale, some real dollars when carried out. That's also only taking into account direct customer service reach outs, nevermind time and costs to clear the lawsuits, BBB complaints from those that go a step further. And to be clear, I do not think those would have grounds or be valid, but that doesn't mean people don't claim so anyway. And each claim would have to be dealt with still.

Then, there's the resale contracts that weren't eligible, that get resold a 2nd time. At that point do those then get grandfathered in and unflagged? Or do they contine to be flagged as unusable? If they continue to be flagged, the above remains a problem. Also do you need original contract origination dates as a cutoff to indicate if a contract is forever in that criteria? Do you collect original buyer information as well as details of all those it transferred hands to versus just keeping current contract owner? What are the data privacy implications of such an action, especially when local state as well as international laws around holding that data comes into play?

If you removed the flag, you're dealing with groups of people potentially selling to themselves just to get rid of the flag - which introduces additional ROFR review, paperwork, etc. That assuming they don't complain in droves about having do perform such a workaround anyway.

I'm being a pain, but wouldn't life be so much easier to say universally that the restriction was lifted? (If it ever were to happen anyway)

 

[mustinjourney]

There's a first time for everything and this may be it. Why would anybody buy one of the existing resale contract that are out there with the restriction that Disney has placed on it? Unless your getting a real bargain I would think anybody that wanted RIV would buy direct not resale unless again it was a real deal...JMHO.

personally, assuming the resort is as nice as it looks and the skyliner works well -- a small 100 point contract via resale at RVA would not be that bad if you can get it for around $120-$130 a point. Right now, BWV and BCV are going for that or more -- and people buying those contracts resale are doing so with the sole intention of using them at those two resorts...so people are already buying properties with plans to only use them at those locations.

And as long as you get a small contract -- your risk is fairly limited. Also -- I could see a RVA resale contract being a good option for someone that already had another home resort. The RVA points are used only for RVA and the other contracts are used at the other 14 resorts. If the owner doesn't want to stay at RVA -- they could always rent the points out and then rent points from someone else.

 

[Sandisw]

There's a first time for everything and this may be it. Why would anybody buy one of the existing resale contract that are out there with the restriction that Disney has placed on it? Unless your getting a real bargain I would think anybody that wanted RIV would buy direct not resale unless again it was a real deal...JMHO.

Exactly, which benefits Disney, not the owner trying to sell or the buyer trying to buy. Those that buy RIV could have a difficult time selling it down the road (still too early to tell). So, Disney has no real motive for ever lifting the restrictions. Let's just say the bottom falls out of the market for RIV...owners may hold on to them, then letting them go at a huge loss. My gut is that Disney is banking on people who buy and have to sell down the road will have a more difficult time because of the restrictions and thus, drive people to buy from Disney direct so they get the trading power into other resorts that makes the DVC product so good.

 

[Yinn]

personally, assuming the resort is as nice as it looks and the skyliner works well -- a small 100 point contract via resale at RVA would not be that bad if you can get it for around $120-$130 a point. Right now, BWV and BCV are going for that or more -- and people buying those contracts resale are doing so with the sole intention of using them at those two resorts...so people are already buying properties with plans to only use them at those locations.

And as long as you get a small contract -- your risk is fairly limited. Also -- I could see a RVA resale contract being a good option for someone that already had another home resort. The RVA points are used only for RVA and the other contracts are used at the other 14 resorts. If the owner doesn't want to stay at RVA -- they could always rent the points out and then rent points from someone else.

I think that’s a perfectly fair argument, but I think you have to take into account why BCV and BWV are so strong. A large part of that is convenience. When skyliner opens, there will be 3 modes of transportation (bus, boat,gondola) it’s also within walking distance to two parks. RIV won’t have that same level of convenience, with only 2 modes of transportation, not within walking distance, and a premium price point.

In that regard, I think VGF is a better comparison, and people are not clamoring for VGF. The other thing is that RIV has the highest dues out of all three of those. Generally speaking, I feel the resale community is more cognizant of annual dues, which will keep value down.

The next strength of BCV and to a lesser degree BWV is the number of available rooms. People simply can’t get into BCV if you don’t own it. While this will be the case for RIV resale, RIV has a lot more availability in terms of room and the desire for 11-mo booking will be highly dependent on the demand specifically for RIV. Which, is limited because of the restriction in the first place.

Its quite brilliant for Disney. Let me introduce an alternative since web mostly been talking RIV direct and RIV resale. If you’re interested in RIV, why not consider say an OKV direct for $155/ppt instead of your hypothetical $120-$130/ppt.

It would be eligible for all resorts Including RIV, dues would be $1.08/ppt cheaper. There’s a ton more flexibility in how to use them. This one is big for purposes of discussion. You’d be a direct blue card holding Disney member all for a premium of $2500 over a RIV resale at the 100 point scenario. I think it’s a tough comparison.

The only downside is lack of 11-mo availability, which goes back to the artificially limited demand. If they can sell out by the 7mo mark, this isn’t viable. But if they can’t and there’s availability, it’ll plummet.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

From a technology perspective. What about dealing with the people?

Hi, is this contract subject to the resale restriction?
Hi, I'm looking to buy a resale and I wanted to check to see if it's eligible to be used at other resorts?
Hi, I just bought a contract on the resale market and I can't seem to book any reservations outside of Rivieria?

Disney does not talk to non-members about contracts available on the resale market. Estoppel would establish this, and it would be on the resale companies to deal with it. Disney does not care or need to care. You cannot call Disney and ask them anything about a resale listing (even if you're a member!).

What's the total cost inclusive of customer service, phone usage, email support, etc. the associated operational costs of the increased volume, survey evaluations of such communications?

It would cost Disney nothing, because of the above. It would be a nuisance for resale companies. Disney LOVES that.

 

[mustinjourney]

I think that’s a perfectly fair argument, but I think you have to take into account why BCV and BWV are so strong. A large part of that is convenience. When skyliner opens, there will be 3 modes of transportation (bus, boat,gondola) it’s also within walking distance to two parks. RIV won’t have that same level of convenience, with only 2 modes of transportation, not within walking distance, and a premium price point.

I don't consider the skyliner a mode of transportation for BWV at all. Sure it's available -- but why would you walk all the way from BWV to IG to ride the skyliner over to DHS when you can just walk to DHS. It is not that much longer of a walk. From BCV -- I do agree that it does add another option to DHS. Just one more reason I love BCV more than BWV.

In that regard, I think VGF is a better comparison, and people are not clamoring for VGF. The other thing is that RIV has the highest dues out of all three of those. Generally speaking, I feel the resale community is more cognizant of annual dues, which will keep value down.

What do you mean people are not clamoring for VGF? I don't see VGF contracts just sitting around right now -- and they command the 2nd highest resale pricing right now...only VGC is higher. I actually think RIV is kind of a mix between VGF luxury/style and BLT size and design (# of rooms and tower). Sure -- the "preferred views" at RIV are likely going to be in abundance at 7 months just due to sheer numbers -- but if you want any chance at a tower studio or standard view -- you're LIKELY going to have to own at RIV. Especially during fall frenzy. that alone would be a reason to own there.

The next strength of BCV and to a lesser degree BWV is the number of available rooms. People simply can’t get into BCV if you don’t own it. While this will be the case for RIV resale, RIV has a lot more availability in terms of room and the desire for 11-mo booking will be highly dependent on the demand specifically for RIV. Which, is limited because of the restriction in the first place.

Very good point -- the size of this resort does lead me to believe that 7 month availability will likely be there (for the higher point views) -- but we will need to see how that shakes out in a couple years.

Its quite brilliant for Disney. Let me introduce an alternative since web mostly been talking RIV direct and RIV resale. If you’re interested in RIV, why not consider say an OKV direct for $155/ppt instead of your hypothetical $120-$130/ppt.

I wouldn't consider OKW b/c I am a buy where you want to stay person -- and I don't really want to stay at OKW. I've done it once -- and for a park visit, I would not be keen on it (especially if you don't have a car). If I was going only to do DS, hang at the resort and play golf -- OKW would probably be a solid option...but I'm not yet at that point.

It would be eligible for all resorts Including RIV, dues would be $1.08/ppt cheaper. There’s a ton more flexibility in how to use them. This one is big for purposes of discussion. You’d be a direct blue card holding Disney member all for a premium of $2500 over a RIV resale at the 100 point scenario. I think it’s a tough comparison.

I agree -- if this is your first and only purchase -- buying RIV resale would be a tough decision. I could certainly see going another way -- but if you really want access to DHS and Epcot without buses, then RIV is really a much better value than either BCV or BWV right now. With resale prices at $150 for BCV, you're effectively paying about $15 per point (this includes amortizing the initial up front purchase). At that point -- there's a good argument renting/transferring points in to stay at BCV is a better option...or buying RIV via resale -- at conservative effective point price of about $13 a point -- you're getting a better deal than BCV.

Nevermind -- if you buy BCV resale at this point -- there's a decent chance you're buying a depreciating asset (no idea when -- next 10 years is probably still OK).

If you buy RIV resale -- presumably you paid the market price, and it's unlikely the market is going to go down unless something else happens. If anything -- I think there is a better chance of its value going up if the resort is a success and the skyliner works as intended.

 

[katandmouse]

There is language written into the contract that would allow DVC to revoke the restriction completely - or reinstate it, or change it, or add more restrictions, or charge a fee... it's very open-ended.

Attached is a screenshot from Riviera's DVC Resort Agreement, section 5.6, which outlines the restriction. This can be found in Riviera's Declaration of Condominium (p. 108), which is available on the OCC Public Records website. https://occompt.com/services/records-search/

Here's a link to an old thread that posted the amendments to the Multi-Site POS and BVTC Disclosure Statement, where similar language was added for the restriction: https://www.disboards.com/threads/multi-site-pos-revision-dated-01-19-19.3734585/

(Also note that for Riviera only, its contract would allow DVC to change resale owners' home booking rules, possibly changing their 11 month booking window for example. See Riviera's Declaration, section 13.1.3 (p. 36) and Riviera's Membership Agreement, section 4.10 (pp. 98-99).)

 

[zavandor]

It takes 6 minutes by gondola to go from Riviera to Epcot gate. Depending on where your room is, one staying at Riviera might be at Epcot before someone staying at BWV. And going to the Studios is probably the same as walking from BWV but sit down instead of walking.
Riviera IS very convenient to two parks.

That said, I would not buy there resale, too many risks.