To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[ZellyB]

Reading along and enjoying. Your scientific approach to everything is fascinating and your fitness/running journey is inspiring. I've read some before, but hadn't commented until now. Loved your description of the Hammer workout and sounds like a great training option when you are really feeling your run.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Reading along and enjoying. Your scientific approach to everything is fascinating and your fitness/running journey is inspiring. I've read some before, but hadn't commented until now. Loved your description of the Hammer workout and sounds like a great training option when you are really feeling your run.

Thanks for the compliment and for following along. The Hammer is definitely one of my favorite workouts, such a confidence booster. I'm glad you like it.

 

[DopeyBadger]

9 Weeks to Go (Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger)

We are 9 weeks away from the marathon and 9 weeks have passed since Dopey. I am starting to feel stronger with each of these runs. The mitochondria rebuilding phase takes about 8-12 weeks so we're getting close to that point in the training (at week 6 now) where the benefits of the training start to show through. Let's see how the week went...

Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Speed +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)

3/2/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
3/3/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:35 min/mile + 8 miles @ 7:52 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:28 min/mile (6/8)
3/4/16 - F - 7 miles @ 9:32 min/mile (3/7)
3/5/16 - Sat - 8 miles @ 8:53 min/mile (8/8) + MBW
3/6/16 - Sun - 15 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (15/15)
3/7/16 - M - 6 miles @ 9:32 min/mile (1/6)
3/8/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:52 min/mile + 3 x 1 mile @ 6:56 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:44 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 10:09 min/mile (3/3)

Total mileage = 53.5 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 36/47 (77%)

Another solid Tempo run Thursday and slowly building confidence that this 7:52 marathon might be feasible. I was able to progressively build to a comfortable pace from beginning to end.

Friday and Monday were easy runs that went easier than expected. As I've stated on occasion, I like to judge an easy run by how much I have to pull back to hit the paces. On both Friday and Monday it was surprisingly difficult to pull back enough to keep the paces within range. The easy paces suggest instead of being at 3:26 marathon pacing I'm moving to 3:23. Not a big difference, but it's nice to see I'm on the right track. This doesn't mean I'm changing my paces though, because the best benefits are reaped by staying at the same pacing through the entire marathon cycle regardless of the changes I've seen.

Sunday's long run was one of the most difficult runs I've had in a long time. The weather wasn't cooperative as it was right on the threshold of cool/warm (30 degrees) with a variable wind between 15-25 mph. This meant when I was headed into the wind I needed cold weather clothes, and when headed with the wind I needed warm weather clothes. I had to go to the well per se to finish this run. However, once I finished I was shocked to see that not only did I hit 15 out of 15 interval paces, but I hit them in a +/- 5 second window! It was a huge confidence builder.

Lastly, it was the last Speed session in this marathon cycle. A successful 3 x 1 mile run at 5K pace. From here on out, the Tuesday now switches to a more marathon specific workout (MP - 10 sec) for longer distance intervals totaling 6 miles (1 mile up to 3 mile intervals). We are entering the second phase of the marathon training cycle. From here on out the focus shifts from getting faster and more efficient, to being able to maintain a certain pace for a longer and longer duration. Excited!

 

[opusone]

From here on out, the Tuesday now switches to a more marathon specific workout (MP - 10 sec) for longer distance intervals totaling 6 miles (1 mile up to 3 mile intervals).

@DopeyBadger: as you know, I am using the Hansons Advanced Half Marathon plan for the upcoming Dark Side Challenge, and the strength workouts are the one area where I cannot figure out the justification for the Hansons half marathon plan pacing. Both the strength and tempo pacing is based on your half marathon goal pace, so tempo runs at half marathon goal pace and strength intervals at HMP-10 secs. For the marathon plan, they use marathon goal pace and MP-10 secs for these workouts, respectively. At my level, the goal pacing difference between a marathon and a half marathon is about a 22 second per mile. Therefore, if I was training for a marathon, I would be running about 22 seconds per mile slower for both my strength and tempo runs.

For the tempo runs, this doesn't bother me too much because with the advanced marathon plan, I think tempo runs max out at 10 miles whereas the advanced half marathon plan only goes up to 7 miles. So, although I am running tempo runs faster than I would if I was on the marathon plan, I am not running as far. So, fine... I understand. Plus, it is always wise to get comfortable at your goal pace.

But for the strength intervals, the workouts are identical for the marathon and half marathon plans (6 miles total of intervals), so I don't understand why you should run these faster when using the half marathon plan. It seems that the physiological benefits should come at the same speed for the same workout regardless of which distance you are training for. Does that make sense?

Maybe another way to think about it: when I look at your weekly workouts, my training pacing is roughly 30 seconds per mile slower than yours on just about every workout (easy, long, speed), but when I look at your tempo pace, and therefore same for your strength pace, my pacing is only 8 seconds per mile slower than yours.

I must admit that, although I have been able to complete all the workouts at the proper pacing so far, the strength intervals (and to a lesser extent the tempo runs) seem pretty difficult at times. Again, I am able to complete them, so maybe the effort is fine. I know your general rule is that you should always feel like you could do one more interval, and I'm sure I probably could, but I really wouldn't be looking forward to it.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I would agree with you that the justification of the Strength workouts in the half marathon Hansons plan seem off. The justification for the marathon plan makes sense in this manner: the week setup from Thursday through Tuesday is meant to simulate the different phases of the marathon.

Thursday - Beginning of the race (you are the freshest you will be all week because of the previous day off)
Friday & Saturday - Continuation of the fatigue built up from the Tempo
Sunday - Simulates the end of the race (the last 10, or last 16, or last 17, etc.)
Monday - Continues fatigue from long run
Tuesday - The final kick

For Tuesday, whether it be the SPEED section or the STRENGTH section the marathon's justification is that you'll be fatigued coming into this run. It won't be as bad as the actual end of the marathon, but the key is that as the intervals go along they should likely increase in difficulty. By taking off time in between each interval (400m-1600m), it causes the fatigue by product to build up in the muscle to make it increasing difficult to complete the workout at the same interval. Thus, it serves a role as a simulator for the end.

With that being said, I would agree with you that your Strength (@ HM - 10 sec) is more difficult than my Strength (@ MP - 10 sec). My guess is two fold on their justification for choosing a faster pacing but the same distance intervals is the following:

1) Because Tuesday is suppose to represent the end of the race, we need to have a faster kick than Tempo pace to a) build up fatigue to the same level as the end of the HM and b) require pacing to be quick as it would be at the end of the HM.

2) The point at which you will succumb to fatigue is sooner in the HM than it is the M because of the relative VO2max that you will be traveling at. Since the point of fatigue is sooner in the HM, then the distances for the intervals of the HM and M should be near the same.

This is a guess off the top of my head because I haven't seen any of their actual justification for this similarity in distance but difference in pacing. The most important thing as you point out is that the TEMPO and STRENGTH workouts should be difficult, but as long as you believe you could complete one more interval than you are on point. If you are completing the intervals but finding that the last interval is always out of range (too slow), then you know that you are likely over extending yourself.

The one thing that bothers me about STRENGTH pacing is that all other pacing seems to be justified by a % difference but the STRENGTH is TEMPO - 10 sec. Well the difference between someone doing a 12 min/mile - 10 sec physiologically is significantly different than someone doing a 6 min/mile - 10 sec. However, the only thing I can think is they choose 10 sec but in the actual timeframe it is only slightly faster. Seems slightly off to me.

 

[opusone]

1) Because Tuesday is suppose to represent the end of the race, we need to have a faster kick than Tempo pace to a) build up fatigue to the same level as the end of the HM and b) require pacing to be quick as it would be at the end of the HM.

2) The point at which you will succumb to fatigue is sooner in the HM than it is the M because of the relative VO2max that you will be traveling at. Since the point of fatigue is sooner in the HM, then the distances for the intervals of the HM and M should be near the same.

Thanks, @DopeyBadger. I think what you said makes sense. Yes, from a race/fatigue perspective, I completely understand why the pace would be slightly faster than race goal pace. That being said, I still think that the strength intervals for the half marathon plan should be shorter than the strength intervals for the marathon plan for two reasons:

1. In a marathon, you are definitely running on fatigued legs for the final 6 miles, but for a half marathon, I think it is more like the last 3-4 miles. I do understand your relative VO2 max point, but the leg fatigue after 20 miles in a marathon is much more than leg fatigue after 7 miles in a half marathon (both points at which you have 6 miles remaining).

2. From a physiological perspective, it seems that the strength workouts are mainly meant to improve lactate threshold capacity (although it does benefit other areas as well). Usually lactate threshold workouts are at a given pace for a given time based on your current VO2 max. It seems odd that my lactate threshold runs pacing would be different for half marathon training vs. marathon training given that my VO2 max is the same. So, I would think the faster the pace, the less the distance for roughly the same physiological benefit (assuming you don't delve into a different physiological zone with the faster pace).

I know you question some of the things in the Hansons half marathon plan/book, so this may just be another weird oversight when they basically just edited the marathon book to fit a half marathon.

Bottom line: I will continue with the plan as written given that I have been able to keep the workouts in the proper pace range (i.e. my last interval is just as fast as my first interval). I guess we'll just see if everything works out on race weekend.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Nailed it! I was just thinking after clicking submit that I've had a few other issues with their half-marathon Hansons plan that it's possible that they didn't do much critical thinking we they came up with the HM Strength workouts. Whenever I've used the Hansons philosophies to help others create HM plans, I typically reduce the Strength workouts from a total of 6 miles to either 4-4.5 miles. I used the same reasoning as you have given in your previous two posts.

I'm excited to see how this plan works out for you. My coworker completed a training plan that she loosely followed for Gasparilla Ultra challenge (30 miles in 2 days) that we came up with. She not only reached her goal of under 5 hours for the event, but was able to get her first sub-2 hour HM even after having to race 12 miles the day before. She had been trying for 1.5 years to break sub 2, so it was astonishing to both of us she was able to do it with the 12 miles of racing the day before. A lot of her success in the HM was based on her not looking at her watch after mile 4-5 and just running on effort to the end. She crossed at 1:59:45!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Hooray for NCAA Tournament time! I love the excitement of the brackets. New system this year to make my brackets. Using fivethirtyeight's power ratings to compile an excel program that will spit out randomly generated brackets based on the probabilities that each of the teams that face each other will beat each other. I feel like removing me as a variable will have a higher success rate in randomness rather than the hours I use to spend tormenting myself with rules and stats. So much fun! To note the randomness, the first time I used it I thought it was broken because it gave me a National Championship of California vs Syracuse with Syracuse winning it all. The odds of those things happening is like 1:50,000. So yea, thought it was broken. It's acted more realistic since then.

 

[DopeyBadger]

8 Weeks to Go (Just keep getting better)

And so the marathon specific training begins. Let's see how it went this week...

Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Strength +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)

3/2/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
3/3/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:30 min/mile + 8 miles @ 7:52 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:37 min/mile (8/8)
3/4/16 - F - 6 miles @ 9:32 min/mile (3/6)
3/5/16 - Sat - 10 miles @ 8:53 min/mile (10/10) + MBW
3/6/16 - Sun - 11 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (7/11)
3/7/16 - M - 8 miles @ 9:32 min/mile (6/8)
3/8/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:43 min/mile + 6 x 1 mile @ 7:42 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:35 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:37 min/mile (6/6)

Total mileage = 56.25 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 40/49 (82%)

Simply put, it just keeps getting better. This week was the start of marathon specific training (switching SPEED into STRENGTH). The pacing for the TEMPO run on Thursday felt really natural. The pacing on Friday, Saturday, and Monday (easy days) were tough to go slow enough to keep it within the appropriate pace. The Sunday Long Run was easy but a bit too fast.

Lastly, Tuesday was the first STRENGTH session of the cycle. Strength runs are done at marathon pace - 10 seconds. The 6x1 mile has been a notoriously tough run for me in the past because one of my weaknesses is getting going after a break. I believe it was my body's inability to clear out fatigue build up fast enough before the next interval. However, today was a completely different story. It felt natural and easy to maintain the necessary 7:42 pacing. Things were going so well I actually thought my GPS must be off today and that all my distance intervals were being miscalculated. The GPS was working fine. My coworker loaned me her running dynamics chest piece as well, so I was able to get some heart rate data (and other running variables). Not a lot to go off of with just one run, but its clear that I'm significantly more fit than last October when I was last able to accumulate data. The small amount of data reiterates based on my calculations that I am close to being prepared for something around a 3:23-3:30.

Loving the progress so far.

 

[roxymama]

Great reading about your progress and that you had a week that confirmed your improvement. Running is a lot like golf or bowling, etc, in that all the really hard runs are worth it for those days or weeks when you just feel really good and in shape! At least that's what I'm finding.
I've had that "my garmin" must be broken feeling too when I was going at a faster pace than I thought I was...until I realized it was accidentally in kilometers.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Great reading about your progress and that you had a week that confirmed your improvement. Running is a lot like golf or bowling, etc, in that all the really hard runs are worth it for those days or weeks when you just feel really good and in shape! At least that's what I'm finding.
I've had that "my garmin" must be broken feeling too when I was going at a faster pace than I thought I was...until I realized it was accidentally in kilometers.

Thanks! I haven't had that "click" moment yet, but I know it's coming. It's the moment when all of the training starts to reach its peak and you just get in a groove with all of the mileage. One of my first indicators "it's" coming is all of the mileage starts to feel natural (starting to happen now). Another indicator is that the back of my leg muscles feel swollen with blood vessels immediately after finishing a run (starting to happen now as well). The key is once you reach that "it" moment to not push harder but just keep training wherever you're at until race day. Let the race results speak for themselves. One of the reasons I enjoy running so much is I feel like its one of those things that you get out of it what you put into it (in most cases).

Lol, on kilometers and miles. Someday I might intentionally switch it just for fun.

I'm excited to see how your blinded Tempo goes tomorrow.

 

[roxymama]

Oh I wouldn't say I've had the ultimate click...but just specific weeks or days that feel really good vs the slog days. Keeps me going.

 

[DopeyBadger]

PSA - You know it's windy when you have a tailwind, spit to your side, and your spit flies head of you and wins a one-on-one race.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Can't hold it till Tuesday's update, but the first 17 miler of the training cycle went extremely well. The goal training pace of 8:33 was easily maintained and many of the miles I had to pull back just to keep them close to pace. Now the goal is to maintain this level of fitness for 6 weeks until race day. Very excited for the possibilities.

 

[roxymama]

Can't hold it till Tuesday's update, but the first 17 miler of the training cycle went extremely well. The goal training pace of 8:33 was easily maintained and many of the miles I had to pull back just to keep them close to pace. Now the goal is to maintain this level of fitness for 6 weeks until race day. Very excited for the possibilities.

Don't hold it in. Shout it out if you are excited! Anytime the words easy and 17 miles are in the same paragraph, that's a great thing!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Don't hold it in. Shout it out if you are excited! Anytime the words easy and 17 miles are in the same paragraph, that's a great thing!

<---- Me shouting it out!

 

[DopeyBadger]

46 Days to Go (The Moment)

Well I let the cat out of the bag a little early this week, but the desired "moment" has happened. Everything seems to be coming together now. Let's see how the week went...

Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Strength +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)

3/16/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
3/17/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:30 min/mile + 8 miles @ 7:52 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:17 min/mile (7/8)
3/18/16 - F - 7 miles @ 9:32 min/mile (2/7)
3/19/16 - Sat - 8 miles @ 8:53 min/mile (6/8) + MBW
3/20/16 - Sun - 17 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (11/17)
3/21/16 - M - 6 miles @ 9:32 min/mile (5/6)
3/22/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:36 min/mile + 4 x 1.5 mile @ 7:42 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:53 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:40 min/mile (4/4)

Total mileage = 59.5 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 35/50 (70%)

Honestly, you could show me 6 random weather forecasts and without fail I could tell you which one is Thursday. Alright, I probably can't but it sure seems like Thursday is always the windiest day of the week. This past Thursday brought 20 mph sustained winds with gusts up to 30mph. The goal was still to try and hit my paces. And while they were within the desired +10 second window many of them were right at 10 seconds. The wind definitely made it tougher than it needed to be but my motto is "train in all weather because you never know what race day will bring."

Friday and Saturday were incredible. It definitely felt easy to run each of those days and gave me a ton of confidence heading into my max distance/timed workout of this training cycle on Sunday. The prescribed Sunday was 17 miles (2:25 timed). It was only the second session I've used nutrition during the run. From beginning to end, the run felt super comfortable. It was really difficult to pull back and remain within the prescribed 8:33 min/mile pacing. It was definitely that click moment I've been waiting for. All of the training seems to be coming together now. I felt super good right after the run and honestly had a hard time convincing myself that I had actually run 17 miles earlier that morning. In addition, it was 17 miles at the end of a 61.5 mile 7-day period! That's crazy!

The Monday run however was back to reality and back to what I expect an "easy" run to feel like after a 17 miler. The Tuesday run was another dose of reality. While I was able to hit all of the paces, it was a much better representation of the end of the marathon.

The training plan is starting to reach its peak. There are only 25 days until the last Long Run (17 miler) and only 36 days left until I've maxed out the training. Every week I'm feeling more confident that I'll be able to give my best effort in the marathon. Something else I've changed in this cycle versus every other marathon cycle (except the first) is that I'm not doing a fitness test half marathon 4-6 weeks in advance. After the last two fitness test half marathons, I felt like I didn't recover as quickly as I wanted to and thus it took a little away from my training plan. I wondered if maybe it cost me a little bit of time in the marathon as well. I've decided for this cycle to not do the fitness half. I also feel confident with my POT for Dopey 2017 with my half from this past December (1:38) which should get me corral B.

My diet has been working wonders. I use the term "diet" in that sense that its what I eat, and not in the sense that I'm trying to lose weight. My goal is to remain strong in running and will make sure to eat what I need to to maintain that strength. I've dropped 7 pounds since January (and 16 pounds from a year ago) and I'm now at a weight (158) that I'm not even sure the last time I was at (maybe freshman year HS or middle school). The key is though that I still feel very strong. I believe this is playing a major role in my success at the moment with the paces I'm able to hit. But if I were to go the next 4 weeks and gain 10 pounds, it wouldn't bother me as long as I'm still hitting my paces.

The next week moves into the 9-mile Tempo. Exciting! Except that it's suppose to be +25mph winds, huh must be Thursday, right?!?!

 

[ZellyB]

Great updates and I'm so impressed with your progress. Your workouts are always so well thought out and with such specific intent. My runs are usually comprised of run 6 miles at this approximate pace. I'm never going to get as precise as you are on your training and goals (and that's totally okay by me), but I love reading about yours.

I'll be wishing for a calm and quiet Thursday for you.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Great updates and I'm so impressed with your progress. Your workouts are always so well thought out and with such specific intent. My runs are usually comprised of run 6 miles at this approximate pace. I'm never going to get as precise as you are on your training and goals (and that's totally okay by me), but I love reading about yours.

I'll be wishing for a calm and quiet Thursday for you.

Thanks! I appreciate you saying that. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

 

[ZellyB]

Thanks! I appreciate you saying that. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

Well, I think I jinxed myself by wishing you a calm wind day. It was crazy windy for our run this morning. The worst was the steep hill we climb at the end of the route that was straight into a headwind. I just kept telling myself it was good training. Hope yours was better!