To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[*DisneyDreamer]

Hey @DopeyBadger! I haven’t been following training journals lately so I had no idea you were injured! I’m so glad to hear you’re able to start getting back into things and hope things go smoothly!

It’s also cool to read the testimonials of people who have followed your training plans. I really felt good about the one you put together for me for the Milwaukee Half and only wish life hadn’t gotten in the way so I could have followed it through to the end. I really felt like I was progressing well while I was following it, so I hope to use you again to prepare for Lakefront this year!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Well in that case, perhaps I’ll hit you up in a few months for a 5k or 10k plan if I ever decide to race one.

I'll be ready when you are!

Hey @DopeyBadger! I haven’t been following training journals lately so I had no idea you were injured! I’m so glad to hear you’re able to start getting back into things and hope things go smoothly!

Thanks! Feeling good about the progress so far and hopeful I can return to form in due time.

It’s also cool to read the testimonials of people who have followed your training plans. I really felt good about the one you put together for me for the Milwaukee Half and only wish life hadn’t gotten in the way so I could have followed it through to the end. I really felt like I was progressing well while I was following it, so I hope to use you again to prepare for Lakefront this year!

It's my pleasure to share them. I'll be ready for that Lakefront plan come May-June! Got any other races in the interim?

 

[*DisneyDreamer]

It's my pleasure to share them. I'll be ready for that Lakefront plan come May-June! Got any other races in the interim?

Not officially. I’ve got some I’m eyeing but I’ve got to get back into a consistent running routine - winter really messed with me this year! I’ve got to get a good sense of where I am so I’ll have better info for you to work with for a plan this time! So anything I do the next couple months will definitely not be for a PR.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Not officially. I’ve got some I’m eyeing but I’ve got to get back into a consistent running routine - winter really messed with me this year! I’ve got to get a good sense of where I am so I’ll have better info for you to work with for a plan this time! So anything I do the next couple months will definitely not be for a PR.

Sounds like a plan!

 

[FredtheDuck]

Plan #84
Name: @OldSlowGoofyGuy
Race/Distance: Marathon
Training Plan Duration (weeks): 22
Continuous or Run/Walk: Continuous
Days per Week: 5
# of Hard Days (per week): 2
Peak Week Duration: 7:50:54 scheduled (7:51:41 actual)
Peak Week Mileage: 50
Peak Single Run Duration: 2:26:23 scheduled (2:29:26 actual)
Peak Single Run Mileage: 16
PR at Distance Going into it (including when it occurred): 4:34:41 January 2016
Expectations Going into it: I'd been on the Hanson plan for a couple of years, so I knew what to expect. But since I'd been on Hanson, I didn't expect to see much improvement in my PR.
How closely were you able to follow the plan as written: Almost to the letter. In 22 weeks, I only missed about 3 runs. I hit (or was pretty close) to pace on almost every run. I had one 'red flag' long run where I finished, but couldn't maintain pace. DopeyBadger adjusted the next week to give me some rest and that put me back on schedule.
Testimonial: My finish time is the greatest testimonial: 3:59:26, a 35 minute PR, and sub 4 for the first time! This was my 11th marathon. I thought 4 hours was unobtainable for me, but DopeyBadger proved me wrong. The plan and the guidance and support he provided got me to my goal. Sometimes it was a little encouragement after a tough run; sometimes it was a probing question. Plus, it makes you accountable to check in every week. The plan was so well thought out, I believe I peaked on the morning of my race. The plan was easy to follow. It pushed me to the limit, but not over the limit. I can highly recommend a DopeyBadger plan to help you reach your goal.

This is an amazing testimonial, both because @OldSlowGoofyGuy did a great job sticking to the plan and because he got such a huge PR! Congrats on the sub-4, and Billy, as always, your runners are lucky to have your help.

 

[DopeyBadger]

This is an amazing testimonial, both because @OldSlowGoofyGuy did a great job sticking to the plan and because he got such a huge PR! Congrats on the sub-4, and Billy, as always, your runners are lucky to have your help.

This one was especially fulfilling because I was taking on Hansons head to head. I saw a path @OldSlowGoofyGuy should take based on the data and it paid off exactly like I thought it would. He actually needed to train easier than Hansons to hit the mark (5 days vs 6 days and only 2 hard instead of 3).

 

[jennamfeo]

Plan #84
Name: @OldSlowGoofyGuy
Race/Distance: Marathon
Training Plan Duration (weeks): 22
Continuous or Run/Walk: Continuous
Days per Week: 5
# of Hard Days (per week): 2
Peak Week Duration: 7:50:54 scheduled (7:51:41 actual)
Peak Week Mileage: 50
Peak Single Run Duration: 2:26:23 scheduled (2:29:26 actual)
Peak Single Run Mileage: 16
PR at Distance Going into it (including when it occurred): 4:34:41 January 2016
Expectations Going into it: I'd been on the Hanson plan for a couple of years, so I knew what to expect. But since I'd been on Hanson, I didn't expect to see much improvement in my PR.
How closely were you able to follow the plan as written: Almost to the letter. In 22 weeks, I only missed about 3 runs. I hit (or was pretty close) to pace on almost every run. I had one 'red flag' long run where I finished, but couldn't maintain pace. DopeyBadger adjusted the next week to give me some rest and that put me back on schedule.
Testimonial: My finish time is the greatest testimonial: 3:59:26, a 35 minute PR, and sub 4 for the first time! This was my 11th marathon. I thought 4 hours was unobtainable for me, but DopeyBadger proved me wrong. The plan and the guidance and support he provided got me to my goal. Sometimes it was a little encouragement after a tough run; sometimes it was a probing question. Plus, it makes you accountable to check in every week. The plan was so well thought out, I believe I peaked on the morning of my race. The plan was easy to follow. It pushed me to the limit, but not over the limit. I can highly recommend a DopeyBadger plan to help you reach your goal.

THIS. All of this. So much this. Your plans. Your encouragement. Your support. You are changing people one plan at a time in a huge way. Forever thankful.

 

[DopeyBadger]

THIS. All of this. So much this. Your plans. Your encouragement. Your support. You are changing people one plan at a time in a huge way. Forever thankful.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity!

 

[SarahDisney]

Congrats on a successful first week back!

Going in, I thought my @DopeyBadger plan would be a one-and-done ... but now I'm really looking forward to working with Billy on future plans and seeing what incredible goals he can help me achieve!

Maybe I spoke too soon on this one...
(Kidding. As long as you keep telling me my questions aren't annoying, I'm going to keep asking them. Even though I think they're annoying, and I don't have to answer them.)

 

[DopeyBadger]

Congrats on a successful first week back!



Maybe I spoke too soon on this one...
(Kidding. As long as you keep telling me my questions aren't annoying, I'm going to keep asking them. Even though I think they're annoying, and I don't have to answer them.)

Thanks!

Nope doesn't annoy me one bit. I'll gladly help someone learn my philosophies if they are genuinely interested.

 

[*DisneyDreamer]

Sounds like a plan!

How about you? Any upcoming races or are things being adjusted because of the injury? (if you’ve shared in here already I apologize but I’m not caught up!) I’m hopeful for another race meet-up someday! I’m excited for Lakefront but sad to miss the group in Chicago.

 

[DopeyBadger]

How about you? Any upcoming races or are things being adjusted because of the injury? (if you’ve shared in here already I apologize but I’m not caught up!) I’m hopeful for another race meet-up someday! I’m excited for Lakefront but sad to miss the group in Chicago.

Technically only Chicago in October. Although I have a few other options I'm looking at.

Hot2Trot HM in June - They decided to move up from 10k to HM. They just released the course and I've got my concerns. They've got us on country roads in the middle miles with small shoulders, blind corners, and speed limits up to 55mph. So I've contacted the organization to see what safety measures they plan to put in place. They hope to get back to me today. I'd like to get under a 1:25 for Chicago A corral placement (although I hear there isn't much of a difference between A and B).

Madison Mini in August - New course and I really like it. Matches well with Chicago training and will hopefully give me a pretty good idea of what will be possible at Chicago.

Last Call in December - Love the course. Cold weather. It was my PR for years. So since no Dopey, I'd like to do it again and really go all out. Like to get under 1:21 (far far far reaching goal) and get a NYQ.

 

[JohnFilipoff]

I would be curious to compare your plan against others I have followed. I'm in the middle of a 12 week Higdon Intermediate plan specifically designed to improve HM time. I've run some Galloway plans (seemed too basic for me) and have run some modified plans (by me) by using methods I've read in the Hansons methods. I've read some of your testimonials and am very intrigued by some of the "run slower" methods you have used with other runners.

 

[SarahDisney]

Last Call in December - Love the course. Cold weather. It was my PR for years. So since no Dopey, I'd like to do it again and really go all out. Like to get under 1:21 (far far far reaching goal) and get a NYQ.

Hmm ... would this qualify you for the 2019 NYC marathon? Because I hear all the cool kids are doing that one...

 

[DopeyBadger]

I would be curious to compare your plan against others I have followed. I'm in the middle of a 12 week Higdon Intermediate plan specifically designed to improve HM time. I've run some Galloway plans (seemed too basic for me) and have run some modified plans (by me) by using methods I've read in the Hansons methods. I've read some of your testimonials and am very intrigued by some of the "run slower" methods you have used with other runners.

The plans are custom to the user based on their input. So any plan I showed you wouldn't necessarily be what you would use as well because I take all 20 questions into consideration when writing a plan. With that being said, what are some recent race times (as a judge of current fitness), how many days per week would you run, and how much time on those days could you spend running?

Hmm ... would this qualify you for the 2019 NYC marathon? Because I hear all the cool kids are doing that one...

I would and we'll see. Boston takes precedence in 2020 if I qualify. My ability to do both would need to be justified financially. But first I need to either get a BQ or NYQ.

 

[JohnFilipoff]

Disney Marathon Jan 2017 - 3:51:57 (steady pace through the entire thing, no walks)
Chicago Marathon October 2017 - 3:47:40 (fell apart at mile 21, had to walk a bit between 21-25)
10K October 2017 - 44:11
5K October 2017 - 21:09
Half Marathon Sept 2017 (was during a 20 mile training run) - 1:46:18

no races / training Nov-Jan, but ran 3 days a week for fitness. Started running again Feb til now.
I'm currently running a 5/5/4 cycle.
I can run as long as needed each of those 5 days.
Running more than 5 days in a week is tough due to child activities.
HM race set for May 12th.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Disney Marathon Jan 2017 - 3:51:57 (steady pace through the entire thing, no walks)
Chicago Marathon October 2017 - 3:47:40 (fell apart at mile 21, had to walk a bit between 21-25)
10K October 2017 - 44:11
5K October 2017 - 21:09
Half Marathon Sept 2017 (was during a 20 mile training run) - 1:46:18

no races / training Nov-Jan, but ran 3 days a week for fitness. Started running again Feb til now.
I'm currently running a 5/5/4 cycle.
I can run as long as needed each of those 5 days.
Running more than 5 days in a week is tough due to child activities.
HM race set for May 12th.

So the 5k and 10k are near race equivalents:



The HM and M are where you need more work. This suggests more endurance work. So 80% of pacing at 8:24 min/mile or slower. And the other 20% focused on HM Tempo and M Tempo. You've got the speed for a 3:22 and 1:37, but not the endurance to back it up.

So doing the Higdon Intermediate does not preclude you from "training slow to race fast". His instructions are to "run slow at a pace of 30-90 seconds slower than HM Tempo" for anything but "paced" runs. So per him that would be a 7:55-8:55 min/mile for everything but "paced runs". That's not too far off from my recommendation either since the majority of the weeks are 4 days easy and 1 day hard. So even this is close to 80% easy (or 8:24 or slower) and 20% hard (7:44 or faster). The key is making sure you are indeed running as slow as 7:55 (or 8:24) for the grand majority of training.

Your race is about 7 weeks out. You're inside a window where if you are doing appropriate training, then it's best not to change it up. The body takes about 6-8 weeks to acclimate to a new training regimen. So my advice is to keep doing the Higdon plan, but try and do all non-paced runs slower per Higdon's instructions. I'd recommend LRs at 8:24, and all other non-paced runs at 8:44-9:22. How does that compare with what you have been recently doing?

Attached are 3 different HM plans with similar (but not the same) pacing as yourself. A 4 day, 5 day and 6 day plan with different twists.

 

[JohnFilipoff]

Wow awesome. Thank You.
I'm hoping to break the 1:45 mark on this next HM with a real goal of dipping into 1:39 or lower by end of year. The upcoming course is hilly, I ran it a couple of years ago.
Any chance I could work with you for the next one?
I'm booked for the Disney Wine and Dine 2018.

 

[JohnFilipoff]

Oh and to answer your question, it's tough to force myself to run slow. I creep as the miles go on. I use a Garmin and it warns me, but it can be tough to hold the pace. I mostly run early in the morning. I find weekday runs a struggle because I literally get up and go right away. On the weekends, I'll wake up, have coffee, eat some food, then run. Those runs are much easier than the weekday ones. For that reason alone, I've switched my Wednesday (speed work day) to be after work. Sometimes on the weekday mornings I'll struggle to keep up with an 8:45-8:55 pace, but in the evening, I find 7:45 comfortable. The thing I'm not liking about the Higdon plan is the slower runs are super short. There are several 3-4 mile only runs, at an 8:45-8:55 pace I don't feel like those runs do anything.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Wow awesome. Thank You.
I'm hoping to break the 1:45 mark on this next HM with a real goal of dipping into 1:39 or lower by end of year. The upcoming course is hilly, I ran it a couple of years ago.
Any chance I could work with you for the next one?
I'm booked for the Disney Wine and Dine 2018.

More than happy to help after this one for sure. Probably want an intermediate goal between Wine and Dine and this May HM since that's a big gap. Maybe something in July/August? I feel reasonably confident that under similar conditions to what you had for the October 5k/10k, we can get your HM time to 1:37.

Oh and to answer your question, it's tough to force myself to run slow. I creep as the miles go on. I use a Garmin and it warns me, but it can be tough to hold the pace. I mostly run early in the morning. I find weekday runs a struggle because I literally get up and go right away. On the weekends, I'll wake up, have coffee, eat some food, then run. Those runs are much easier than the weekday ones. For that reason alone, I've switched my Wednesday (speed work day) to be after work. Sometimes on the weekday mornings I'll struggle to keep up with an 8:45-8:55 pace, but in the evening, I find 7:45 comfortable. The thing I'm not liking about the Higdon plan is the slower runs are super short. There are several 3-4 mile only runs, at an 8:45-8:55 pace I don't feel like those runs do anything.

I can certainly understand. For me personally, runs feel much tougher if I don't have a good 45-60 min of time between waking up and running. Sometimes I'm doing 9-10 min/mile and it feels like some of my easy pacing at 7:40s. My body just isn't prepared to run right out of the gate. Pay attention to the effort. Which means if you're suppose to be easy, then it should feel easy. Which means if you're scheduled for 8:44 and 8:44 doesn't feel easy, then drop back to 9:00 or 9:30. But if 8:44 feels too easy, then just try your hardest to stick to 8:44. Effort can tell you to go slower, but I'm always wary of allowing someone to speed up because of the effort feelings.

Yes, a 25-30 min weekday run is very short. Most of the time I schedule the easy recovery days to be between 45-60 min. Regardless though, while it may not feel like it's doing anything, it is. The goal of the recovery days is to continue the cumulative fatigue to the next. It doesn't necessarily build fatigue, but it maintains it. The real underlying key to training is the adaptation/stimulus response system. So when you do those super easy 25, 45, or 60 min runs, what you're really doing is limiting the recovery window time from one run to the next. Not building fatigue, but forcing the body to adapt to this underlying maintenance of fatigue. If done appropriately, then it will continue to make your body adapt by creating new capillaries, change mitochondria (volume and density), and overall make you a stronger runner. But the key is going slow enough. Because if you go too fast (or for too long), then those easy days stop maintaining fatigue and start building fatigue. Then that building of fatigue stunts the adaptation response and instead you move into the "Survive the training, instead of thriving because of it". Your body becomes SO focused on recovery, that it doesn't ever have time to adapt. This is the most common problem with marathon training plans. Too much needed recovery and not enough adaptations.