The Pro-Genie App discussion thread - speculate how the app could make your trip next trip great!

[JPinkc]

It would indeed! But then, so is spending $250 for 4 hours of park time and a not-very-good parade, so clearly I don't understand Disney's target market these days.

Its "Mo Money Mo Money" if your old enough to get that joke

 

[JPinkc]

I did not read the full 10 pages, but i guess pre-pandemic the gaming of the FP system made it so unusable to many folks. I hated that. As a person who would wait and do the right thing and log in at the correct timeframes (legit based on my actual reservation I was going to use) and did not get any of the popular rides and if I did get one it was certainly not any good times.
Can we all agree that the pre-pandemic FP system was broken? (even if it was free, but I won't get into something free that is broken really has very little value to many, but it may still be of value to some)

IMHO, the FP system was horribly broken and while I may come to regret that position given the pay per ride option DLP is deploying which sounds awful for WDW. I don't really expect that since in DLP they have most guests on short stays based on my understanding. WDW they want you there for longer and the pay-per-ride scenario is not helpful. I suspect that we get a blanket upgrade like pay-per-day-per-person, which I will be fine with (I think).
In full disclosure I am also one of those people who have paid for a VIP tour in order to 'solve' a part of the old FP system problem. It was expensive and I had to make other decisions (like downgrade my hotel choice) to fund (a portion of) that option.

I totally agree the previous FP was fine, unfortunately I think those who gamed the system, are a bit more responsible for this reaction, but GREED is by far the biggest factor.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

I think WDW unintentionally created a situation that in order to have a great experience you had to become educated and plan way in advance. Certainly everyone would agree WDW did not intentionally want those who did not get educated and plan over 60 days in advance to have a meh time. Yet that’s what they ended up with.

I think the FP+ at WDW was awesome for one group of guests at the expense of another, equally valued group of guests. This Genie app is their opportunity to fix that.

I have no idea whether WDW intentionally or unintentionally created a situation. When I am spending a decent chunk of money on something, I do some research on what I'm buying and there are certainly enough available resources.

In fact, the biggest complaint I hear from non-Disney fanatics is that it is too expensive. Adding more significant costs is probably not going to help that, either for the guest that did no research, or me.

I would like to think WDW, as a hundred billion dollar + company, had some kind of a plan with some kind of an expected outcome and if they didn't, why would I think a genie app will fix anything?

 

[Bearval]

That would be insane!

I heard a rumor that due to the anticipated high cost of the "new fast pass" system, Disney will accept Bitcoin and kidney donations as payment.

 

[Marionnette]

Please define "gaming the system".

The only "gaming" that I was aware of was when people would acquire a FP for Grandma, who never entered the park, and then used the "change person" function in order to give it to someone else in their party. That loophole was closed by Disney a long time ago. So there would have been no reason to abandon the FP+ system to fix that.

 

[snowwhite84]

Please define "gaming the system".

The only "gaming" that I was aware of was when people would acquire a FP for Grandma, who never entered the park, and then used the "change person" function in order to give it to someone else in their party. That loophole was closed by Disney a long time ago. So there would have been no reason to abandon the FP+ system to fix that.

Not sure what the poster was referring to, but there were a couple ways to cheat the system via hotel reservations. ETA: I’m not sure what an overall effect it had on the system, and I’m not presuming that’s why Disney is making this change (I get that it’s all about $$$)

I do think there were a few “broken” elements of FP+, though I did love the system overall. I’m very much interested in seeing if this new system makes it easier to acquire quicker line access to top tier rides. I was not a fan of hitting refresh 1000 times to get on FoP!

 

[TommyJK]

Not sure what the poster was referring to, but there were a couple ways to cheat the system via hotel reservations.

I do think there were a few “broken” elements of FP+, though I did love the system overall. I’m very much interested in seeing if this new system makes it easier to acquire quicker line access to top tier rides. I was not a fan of hitting refresh 1000 times to get on FoP!

To me the problem with FP+ is that even though it was "available" to everyone, the most benefit derived from it went to a small fraction of the overall number of guests and at the same time made things worse for those who did not fully benefit from it.

 

[cakebaker]

Can we all agree that the pre-pandemic FP system was broken?

No, I don't agree. I never had an issue getting the FP's I wanted- not once did we go to WDW without the original 3 FP's I wanted to get. It wasn't hard if you stayed on site for a 5 day or longer trip. Even if it was a shorter trip, you could still get them and it was only a handful that were hard to get anyway.

As a person who would wait and do the right thing and log in at the correct timeframes

I have no idea what you're talking about with doing the right thing- they did have some loopholes in the beginning that allowed people to book a room, book their fp's and then cancel the room, but that was fixed long ago. Other than that, there were no cheats you could use and no gaming of the system.

And however it worked, it's a better answer than paying $10-$50 per ride and having to be paying every time you want to ride a headliner without standing in hours long lines.

 

[cakebaker]

To me the problem with FP+ is that even though it was "available" to everyone, the most benefit derived from it went to a small fraction of the overall number of guests and at the same time made things worse for those who did not fully benefit from it.

If the new system is as bad as some people predict, it's may be available to everyone, but it will be out of reach for a great many of them. And it will certainly be worse for those who don't buy into it.

 

[Keyser]

So I've been thinking about this, and the last couple of pages some others have made similar points.

Disney has a bunch of rides, and assuming they are running them at capacity (don't get me started on the annoyance of not doing so just when lines aren't "long") and there's never a time with no one riding, there's a fixed number of people who are going to be able to go on rides in one day. Whatever system Disney comes up with is in some sense allocating how those rides get divided up among park guests.

One option would be to make everyone have as close to the "same" experience as possible (think like a guided tour - same for everyone). This isn't realistic, but an extreme case would be something like giving each person a fixed itinerary on entry and you don't get a choice to deviate. For lots of reasons this isn't going to happen, but it could keep rides being used, limit wait times in lines, and it would ensure everyone has the "same" level of visit.

A second option is what we have now: the people who plan out and are more informed get a "better" experience, at the expense of those who don't. Every "extra" ride that a "planner" gets is one less that a non-planner doesn't get. This isn't really new, and things like the Unofficial Guide/Touring Plans help planners exploit inefficiencies (like knowing low wait times, less crowded parks, etc.) and kind of maximize what they can do in their park time. This has been going on for >20 years, and Disney has always encouraged planning to some level, so I kind of doubt that they are going to completely get away from this. But, it's been encouraged even more in recent years with the moves to requiring advance FP reservations, booking park days and other reservations way ahead, etc. And, I can easily see Disney getting feedback or other info saying that the planning aspect has taken on too great of a role, and they need to back off, for the sake of people who don't know to plan, don't want to plan, etc. As a person really into planning, I like this model, and it's something I've liked about Disney trips, but I can see how it could create issues for the company as a whole.

In between those two is an option 1.5: no fast-passes at all. There's still a benefit to planning, but not to the same extent.

Which brings up a third option, which is determining the allocation of rides based on what people pay. If you pay more, you get more of the rides allocated to you. Again, this has been building up over the years (all the extra add-ons, such as parties, extra hours, etc. are all leading this direction). And, most people accept this willingly in a lot of places and ways (even at Disney), but since it hasn't been the norm for the park portion of a typical Disney trip, there's understandably a lot of resistance to it.

So, I can see both Disney wanting to move to more of a "you don't have to plan to have a great experience" mode and also the obvious income benefits of a pay-to-ride system. Really, they're just trading "planners" for "payers'. As a planner, I don't like it myself, but if the new system lets the average person have a better experience in some way (even if that's just feeling that they don't have to plan everything as much), Disney will probably consider it a success. It's hard to believe Disney hasn't gone this way already.

There's a whole other consideration, which is how people spend their time between rides (i.e. in lines or outside of lines), and I think this was the motivation behind the introduction of FP to begin with (i.e. spend your time in shops instead of in line), but that's not the way people really took it. I think both Disney and the guests will be on the same page here - i.e. guests would rather not stand in lines, and Disney would prefer people in shops/restaurants than in lines. Maybe there's a positive that will come out of Genie in that regard...

 

[TommyJK]

A second option is what we have now: the people who plan out and are more informed get a "better" experience, at the expense of those who don't. Every "extra" ride that a "planner" gets is one less that a non-planner doesn't get. This isn't really new, and things like the Unofficial Guide/Touring Plans help planners exploit inefficiencies (like knowing low wait times, less crowded parks, etc.) and kind of maximize what they can do in their park time. This has been going on for >20 years, and Disney has always encouraged planning to some level, so I kind of doubt that they are going to completely get away from this. But, it's been encouraged even more in recent years with the moves to requiring advance FP reservations, booking park days and other reservations way ahead, etc. And, I can easily see Disney getting feedback or other info saying that the planning aspect has taken on too great of a role, and they need to back off, for the sake of people who don't know to plan, don't want to plan, etc. As a person really into planning, I like this model, and it's something I've liked about Disney trips, but I can see how it could create issues for the company as a whole.

This option though (i.e. what it's been like with FP+) is both a planner and payer option combined.

To get the best possible advantage of ease to score that FP+ for FoP or Frozen or eventually ROTS (when it would have eventually been put on FP+) you are both planning (at that 60 day window) AND paying extra for it by staying on-site at a resort that costs double the equivalent resort that is off-site, pluse those that get further advantage by say staying longer than one week as opposed to staying less than a week. And couple this with FP+ making standby longer for eveyone else that doesn't have FP+ for the best headliners (which is 70% of guests or more).

 

[TommyJK]

If the new system is as bad as some people predict, it's may be available to everyone, but it will be out of reach for a great many of them. And it will certainly be worse for those who don't buy into it.

I don't see it being worse for the 70+ % of guest who aren't able to get a FP+ for the biggest headliners and had their standby waits longer than if there was no FP+ to begin with.

 

[snowwhite84]

Other than that, there were no cheats you could use and no gaming of the system.

And however it worked, it's a better answer than paying $10-$50 per ride and having to be paying every time you want to ride a headliner without standing in hours long lines.

There was still a resort reservation loophole you could utilize in order to secure FP+. I won’t get into here because I think it’s against board rules, but Disney never corrected it.

As to the bolded, that’s just a matter of perspective. We love FP+, but typically go for long weekends. I consistently had trouble getting Fastpass for our favorite rides at 60 days out. I would spend a good amount of time in the parks hitting FP refresh.

In comparison, if my family can rope drop a headliner, do virtual queue for two rides, and pay $10 a person two times to get LP twice, we might consider that a much better deal.

I know it rubs a lot of people the wrong way because it was free, but the value of a low wait for something like FoP in the middle of the day is definitely worth something like $10 to me. Especially considering a souvenir mug is $20-$25, a spirit jersey is $70, etc. Of all the astronomical pricing that goes on at Disney, I think there’s a price point where a fair few number of visitors will find value in this service.

ETA: and if this does away with tiering, I will be WILDLY excited. I would definitely pay that $10-$15 price if I could have, say SDD and Millenium Falcon. Or, because I have a four year old, not let a Frozen FP come at the expense of a Test Track FP!

 

[snowwhite84]

It's hard to believe Disney hasn't gone this way already.

This is really my takeaway, too. I just don’t see any scenario where we didn’t end up here. I’m glad we got it for free for 20+ years, but I don’t think that was ever going to go on in perpetuity.

A lot of numbers are being thrown around. Based on nothing but my own instinct, I bet it is about $10-15 a LP, and we would likely use it maybe twice a day. For my family of three for let’s say four days, that’s about $250. I think it’s a reasonable price tag for the value of what you would get.

A number of people have brought up good points, like what happens when the ride you paid for goes down. I guess we’ll see what Disney comes up with!

 

[5DisneyNuts]

This option though (i.e. what it's been like with FP+) is both a planner and payer option combined.

To get the best possible advantage of ease to score that FP+ for FoP or Frozen or eventually ROTS (when it would have eventually been put on FP+) you are both planning (at that 60 day window) AND paying extra for it by staying on-site at a resort that costs double the equivalent resort that is off-site, pluse those that get further advantage by say staying longer than one week as opposed to staying less than a week. And couple this with FP+ making standby longer for eveyone else that doesn't have FP+ for the best headliners (which is 70% of guests or more).

I don't see it being worse for the 70+ % of guest who aren't able to get a FP+ for the biggest headliners and had their standby waits longer than if there was no FP+ to begin with.

Are you privy to these numbers or is 70% a guess you are making?

I am not disagreeing with the fact that guest satisfaction might be low for first time or infrequent visitors and WDW has to do something, I just don't see how charging $15, $25, $50 per person, per ride, on top of gate is going to alleviate this.

Once FP is monetized, there is no guarantee of availability to everyone who wants it. One group that will be disappointed is the guest that was able to get a FP with advanced planning and now has to pay, one group will be those who would love to pay for the FP but can't afford it, and one group will be those guests who want it, can afford it, but it isn't available.

One thing that absolutely increases the guest experience is the magic that the Cast Members deliver. Spontaneous entertainment, interactions, live shows, parades, characters are all crowd diversions that make everyone smile, but I haven't heard any plans to increase these, in fact just the opposite. Why is that if WDW is so concerned with the guest experience?

 

[snowwhite84]

I think a good comparison is the park hopper feature. It’s a pretty costly add on to a ticket and you certainly don’t HAVE to park hop to see and do everything. But a lot of people enjoy the flexibility it provides and are willing to pay for that ability.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

I think a good comparison is the park hopper feature. It’s a pretty costly add on to a ticket and you certainly don’t HAVE to park hop to see and do everything. But a lot of people enjoy the flexibility it provides and are willing to pay for that ability.

I'm glad the paid version could work in your situation. I think what some of the rest of us are saying is to replace something that came with admission, and adding a significant up charge, is diminishing the value and the experience. For my family of 5 during a busy time for 10 rides we are looking at adding $1250 in addition to the cost of park admission. Disney management monitors social media and they should hear all sides.

I don't pay for parties any longer due to the increased capacity, I don't pay for hoppers any longer due to the increased cost, but these things are my choice. With the speculation that is going around the only way to ride some of the popular rides is to wait 1-2 hours, or pay $25 per person per ride, I have no choice there.

That's what I'm hoping WDW avoids.

 

[snowwhite84]

I'm glad the paid version could work in your situation. I think what some of the rest of us are saying is to replace something that came with admission, and adding a significant up charge, is diminishing the value and the experience. For my family of 5 during a busy time for 10 rides we are looking at adding $1250 in addition to the cost of park admission. Disney management monitors social media and they should hear all sides.

I don't pay for parties any longer due to the increased capacity, I don't pay for hoppers any longer due to the increased cost, but these things are my choice. With the speculation that is going around the only way to ride some of the popular rides is to wait 1-2 hours, or pay $25 per person per ride, I have no choice there.

That's what I'm hoping WDW avoids.

I totally get that. I’m sure there are plenty of families that will struggle to find value here. A lot of the posts I’ve shared on this thread have been in reaction to someone saying something along the lines of “this is a bad plan, full stop.” I’ve been sharing my (what I feel to be in the minority) opinion as a matter of balance.

I think there are families that this will work for, mine included, and Disney must be counting on that being true for a wide number. I can absolutely understand the aggravation, though.

 

[TommyJK]

Are you privy to these numbers or is 70% a guess you are making?

Just a mathematical breakdown really. Let me state some numbers that are genrally accepted to be true based on info that is out there. MK averages ~60,000 guests per day. According to Touring Plans, 70-80% of a queues capacity is alloted to FP+ (let's split the difference and say 75%). Now let's look at a popular ride's throughput. I'll use Splash Mountain for one example (it has a faily high hourly capacity) and Peter Pan's Flight for another example (faily low hourly capacity). Splash has a throughput of Approx. 1800/hour. Peter Pan's Flight has approx. 1100/hour.

So on an average 14 hour park day, Splash moutain will accomodate 25,200 guests. If ~75% of those riders are pre-booked FP+ riders, that's 18,900 riders. This means that 68.5% of that day's guests, if they want to try and ride, are subject to a very long wait, longer than if there was no FP+ to begin with. Peter Pan is worse. Do the same calcs and 80% of that day's guests, if they want to try and ride, are subject to a long wait, longer than if there was no FP+ to begin with.

I am not disagreeing with the fact that guest satisfaction might be low for first time or infrequent visitors and WDW has to do something, I just don't see how charging $15, $25, $50 per person, per ride, on top of gate is going to alleviate this.

By charging for it the % of people that has a FP+ should be drastically lower than the ~75% of a queue that is taken up by it now. Depending how they price it, I'm guessing the amount of the queue that is FP+ will probably be maybe 10-15% Opening up much more of the line to standby and reducing the wait for standby, improving the experience for a much larger number of people. And if genie works as they think it will (by guiding the majority of guests in an overall optimal dispersion through the entire park) then that standby wait in theory could get even better (but that's the biggest unknown that I'm curious to see how this aspect that Disney hopes for will pan out).

Once FP is monetized, there is no guarantee of availability to everyone who wants it. One group that will be disappointed is the guest that was able to get a FP with advanced planning and now has to pay, one group will be those who would love to pay for the FP but can't afford it, and one group will be those guests who want it, can afford it, but it isn't available.

There was never a guarantee of the availability of FP+ to everyone who wants it. And by that I mean sure, everyone has "access" to FP+, but the large majority of a given day's park visitors do not in practicality have access to the best FP+'s.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

I totally get that. I’m sure there are plenty of families that will struggle to find value here. A lot of the posts I’ve shared on this thread have been in reaction to someone saying something along the lines of “this is a bad plan, full stop.” I’ve been sharing my (what I feel to be in the minority) opinion as a matter of balance.

I think there are families that this will work for, mine included, and Disney must be counting on that being true for a wide number. I can absolutely understand the aggravation, though.

I've enjoyed reading your posts and I understand your POV.

At the risk of sounding dramatic, which is really not the way I'm trying to come across, if this rumor is true and FPs will cost somewhere around $15 ,$25, $50 pp, per ride, in addition to tickets, with no benefits to on site guests or something else offered that I perceive as better experience, yes Disney will lose my business. Not that there won't be someone to take my place LOL.

I will remain hopeful and wait to see what happens however.