The DIS Book Club Discussion Group: Round 3 - House Rules - CHAT JUNE 8 @ 8 P.M.

[katscradle]

I am really enjoying this book, but there are times when it gets tough and I have to take a break.
Emma is doing the best she can, and she is doing a much better job than I think I could do. However I think Theo is getting ripped off and I worry about him.
Theo needs to put some tome into him before it becomes too late.
Is it already too late?Jacob I think he is wonderful, I am worried and hoping things work out for him.
I have 2 boys both with different needs, not autism.
My 12 year old has 2 friends with autism.
The first is Jacob he has what would be considered a mild case of autism.
Once we were told things made sence, and it is easy to arrange play dates for Jacob and Kenny. Austin is Kenny's 2nd friend with autism, he is 13.
Austin's autism is very severe worse than Jacob's.
It is hard to arrange play dates with Austin, but the boy's play together at school almost everyday. We try and arrange Kenny birthday parties far in advance so Austin will be able to come.
Well now I am off to read some more.
Have a great rest of the weekend peeps!

 

[Tinkerkell123]

AARRRGGGHHH!! I am almost done!! I am dying to get to the end, but I don't want it to end. I think I know what happened, but I'm not sure... This is an awesome book.

I think I am in love with Oliver. Just don't tell the DH...

 

[kehlyrsmom]

Just finished the book this weekend (and just saw the discussion thread today..)

Do not want to jump ahead to far - but I thought the story was predictable, but a very interesting read. Jody hit the life with autism thing pretty well, but I would guess Jacob as more moderate autistic than an aspi. (coming from someone wth DD(10) who has aspergers and DS(8) with moderate autism. Anyway - that label aside, she did a very good job. Both my kids have sensory issues at the opposite end of the scales. (in the same situation, what will help with one will drive the other deeper into a meltdown.)

I found Theo's comments in the story very interesting because having 2 kids on the spectrum with one worse than the other, we find ourselves catering to DS more than DD. We know its not fair to DD, and since she is aspergers -I don't think she really understands the reasoning - but Theo's thoughts did make for some interesting reflection on my part.....

Anyway - looking forward to more discussion.

Michael (DH of Kehlyrsmom)

 

[*NikkiBell*]

I, too, am ahead, but have not finished the text just yet. I'm trying to not go too far past our deadlines so I can come on here and add more discussion points (I have a terrible memory, at times). I also do not want the story to end. I really love this novel and am now a huge Jodi Picoult fan.

Emma's character amazes me with each turn of the page. I loved her description of "real mothers" in Case 4 (pg. 157). I especially loved this line: "Rest easy, real mothers. The very fact that you worry about being a good mom means that you already are one." This particularly hit home for me. Although I do not have any children, I look at my mom and think of the sacrifices she has made in her life to improve ours. I know there have been times she has questioned her decisions and that relates to Emma's quote above. For you mothers out there, have you ever felt this way? Can you relate to Emma's desire for a "magic ring" to guide them in all that they do?

I know a lot about Asperger's and autism thanks to my job. I've taken workshop after workshop and worked with kids on all areas of the spectrum. However, I never, ever heard of something Jacob mentioned on pg. 163. He said that "scientists have found that dogs can smell the presence of autism in kids." This was one of the many times recently that my mouth hit the ground. Does anyone know more about this? I'm hoping to do a little research at some point and would love it to be able to share articles found online. If anyone has some share or decides to do some research themselves, please post your findings here. I find this fact absolutely amazing. Do you believe that animals, dogs in particular, can actually smell autism? Why or why not? What, if anything, could make this possible?

 

[*NikkiBell*]

I just linked an article to the first post in this thread. It talked about service dogs for children with autism and had a short video clip.

 

[Tinkerkell123]

Just finished the book this weekend (and just saw the discussion thread today..)

Do not want to jump ahead to far - but I thought the story was predictable, but a very interesting read. Jody hit the life with autism thing pretty well, but I would guess Jacob as more moderate autistic than an aspi. (coming from someone wth DD(10) who has aspergers and DS(8) with moderate autism. Anyway - that label aside, she did a very good job. Both my kids have sensory issues at the opposite end of the scales. (in the same situation, what will help with one will drive the other deeper into a meltdown.)

I found Theo's comments in the story very interesting because having 2 kids on the spectrum with one worse than the other, we find ourselves catering to DS more than DD. We know its not fair to DD, and since she is aspergers -I don't think she really understands the reasoning - but Theo's thoughts did make for some interesting reflection on my part.....

Anyway - looking forward to more discussion.

Michael (DH of Kehlyrsmom)

Just curious, what do you see that are the main differences in Jacob being more moderate autistic rather than an aspi?

One of the things I keep reading is how aspi people really want to be able to fit in as far as social interactions with others. Is this true in your experience?

Thanks!

 

[Tinkerkell123]

Emma's character amazes me with each turn of the page. I loved her description of "real mothers" in Case 4 (pg. 157). I especially loved this line: "Rest easy, real mothers. The very fact that you worry about being a good mom means that you already are one." This particularly hit home for me. Although I do not have any children, I look at my mom and think of the sacrifices she has made in her life to improve ours. I know there have been times she has questioned her decisions and that relates to Emma's quote above. For you mothers out there, have you ever felt this way? Can you relate to Emma's desire for a "magic ring" to guide them in all that they do?

Do you believe that animals, dogs in particular, can actually smell autism? Why or why not? What, if anything, could make this possible?[/B]

I worry about being a good mom ALL the time! I don't know about wanting a "magic ring" but it certainly couldn't hurt... Things happen that you just have to get through and do the best you can. This past year my DH has been working & living out of town while trying to find a job here. The day he started his out-of-town job I got diagnosed with cancer. Great timing! So while he was able to come home for the major surgery it was me & the kids. I let a TON of stuff slide while going through treatment because I just couldn't do it. Checking homework beyone making sure it was done, lots of takeout, stuff like that. I constantly worried that I was ruining their academic career and totally not giving them enough attention! But what can you do? Got to keep going the best you can and that is certainly what Emma is doing (and making me feel that my past year is NOTHING in comparison! ) I don't think any mom ever truly feels she is doing a great job. There's always something to worry about...

RE: dogs... I can see this being possible. Dogs can tell if a person is going to have a seizure so why not be able to detect autism. I am not sure what good the dog would do if you had a service dog for someone with autism, unless maybe the dog could tell if they were about to meltdown sooner that a person would...

 

[hmonkeyruns]

Just as I thought, I finished the book very quickly and as I expected, I was not a fan.

How would you feel if your son/daughter dated a person with aspergers? I don't have children so this is totally hypothetical but I think I'd actually be OK with it. I think in any romantic relationship it's impossible for outsiders to truly understand how and why the relationship works for the two people involved. I think I'd want for my child to be happy and if being with the Asperger's person made him/her happy then good for them! To be honest though, I'd have a very hard time indulging the "quirks" of the Asperger's peron if they were anything like Jacob....I'm not color coding my menus for anyone.

How do feel about Theo, being a brother to Jacob also how life revolves around Jacob? The only character in this book that I had real sympathy for was Theo. He's been margainalized by everybody in his life and it's just sad that nobody notices that he's stuggling.

Spoiler

Even when he's trying to talk nobody will give him the opportunity! His mother dismisses him because of Jacob and his father doesn't understand him enough to figure out what's going on. I'm also a little annoyed that they never give us a real resolution to the trial and of Theo's fate. And I'm totally creeped out that he's listening to the stolen iPod on the way to court!! [End Spoiler]

What is your impression of Emma? From reading the comments here I think I'll be the lone voice saying that I detest her character. I understand that she loves Jacob and wants to mainstream him and give him a "normal" life but I find her behavior completely absurd. Let's just start with the basics: quitting her job in a time of crisis when she has no income and no savings? Hiring a lawyer without any research and who has no experience without any type of interview? How could she possibly find it acceptable for her child to repatedly stage bloody crime scenes in the home. Seriously, how is that type of behavior going to help him fit in (and that's what she claims that she wants)? How about virtually ignoring her other child? What about not mentioning the situation to Jacob's father? How about the way she just assumes that everybody in law enforcement will be OK with the fact that she doesn't want the laws to apply to her son? I mean really, what did she think was going to happen when she calls the police to say "oh by the way, my son's handmade quilt is the one your dead body is wrapped in". SHOCKER that they want to interrogate him! [SPOILER AHEAD] And then sleeping with the lawyer? Really? [End Spoiler]

Oliver: I liked Oliver but I don't understand his behavior either. He should have punted this case to somebody who could actually handle it -- especially once he found out that Emma probably couldn't pay him. His decision to keep such a serious case when he was clearly unqualified to handle it really makes me question his judgement. [Possible spoiler] And really, how much of a knock-out is Emma to get this young, apparantly hot, guy to be interested in a romantic relationship with her when she has such a MASSIVE amount of baggage? Not to mention the grey area of her sortof being his client. [End Possible Spoiler]

Narrative style: I like the concept of POV storytelling but I agree with the previous poster who said the only real difference is the font. JP didn't give the characters enough of a unique style to tell them apart without the font change and the Name preceeding the chapter title.

 

[Tinkerkell123]

Just as I thought, I finished the book very quickly and as I expected, I was not a fan.

How would you feel if your son/daughter dated a person with aspergers? I don't have children so this is totally hypothetical but I think I'd actually be OK with it. I think in any romantic relationship it's impossible for outsiders to truly understand how and why the relationship works for the two people involved. I think I'd want for my child to be happy and if being with the Asperger's person made him/her happy then good for them! To be honest though, I'd have a very hard time indulging the "quirks" of the Asperger's peron if they were anything like Jacob....I'm not color coding my menus for anyone.

How do feel about Theo, being a brother to Jacob also how life revolves around Jacob? The only character in this book that I had real sympathy for was Theo. He's been margainalized by everybody in his life and it's just sad that nobody notices that he's stuggling.


What is your impression of Emma? From reading the comments here I think I'll be the lone voice saying that I detest her character. I understand that she loves Jacob and wants to mainstream him and give him a "normal" life but I find her behavior completely absurd. Let's just start with the basics: quitting her job in a time of crisis when she has no income and no savings? Hiring a lawyer without any research and who has no experience without any type of interview? How could she possibly find it acceptable for her child to repatedly stage bloody crime scenes in the home. Seriously, how is that type of behavior going to help him fit in (and that's what she claims that she wants)? How about virtually ignoring her other child? What about not mentioning the situation to Jacob's father? How about the way she just assumes that everybody in law enforcement will be OK with the fact that she doesn't want the laws to apply to her son? I mean really, what did she think was going to happen when she calls the police to say "oh by the way, my son's handmade quilt is the one your dead body is wrapped in". SHOCKER that they want to interrogate him!


Oliver: I liked Oliver but I don't understand his behavior either. He should have punted this case to somebody who could actually handle it -- especially once he found out that Emma probably couldn't pay him. His decision to keep such a serious case when he was clearly unqualified to handle it really makes me question his judgement.

Narrative style: I like the concept of POV storytelling but I agree with the previous poster who said the only real difference is the font. JP didn't give the characters enough of a unique style to tell them apart without the font change and the Name preceeding the chapter title.

RE: Spoiler 1 (also spoiler alert) Totally agree about the iPod thing. Let me just say I would have snatched that thing out of their hands so fast! I also REALLY wanted to know what happened after the trial. Were there NO consequences at all for either kid?

Just out of curiosity: You said you don't have kids. Are you a guy or girl? Just wondering if you feel that way about her because you're a guy. And I don't mean that in a "men just don't understand these things" kind of way! Also, I will say that prior to having kids of my own, I was an EXPERT at child-rearing!! Now, not so much! I find my self doing/saying things I swore I would NEVER do/say...

RE: Possible Spoiler (also spoiler alert) Agree, but love is blind... Or would that be lust? Also drove me INSANE that no one ever asked Jacob if he did it! They say over & over how literal he is, but when he says he isn't sorry for what he did THEY NEVER ASK WHY!! Also no one ever asks him WHY he did it when they thought he was guilty! I guess maybe most lawyers don't ask their clients if they are guilty of the crime they are charged with, but I would just HAVE to know! Especially in this case!


I really liked the POV style.

 

[hmonkeyruns]

Just out of curiosity: You said you don't have kids. Are you a guy or girl? Just wondering if you feel that way about her because you're a guy. And I don't mean that in a "men just don't understand these things" kind of way!

This question cracked me up! I am a woman but I tend to be a lot less...how shall I put this..... warm and fuzzy?....than most women. (Maybe I have a touch of Asperger's myself!) I just have a hard time feeling sympathy for people who make bad decisions and then are shocked by the consequences.

For example: years ago my sister was living in Texas and she decided not to come home to PA for Christmas because she wanted stay with her boyfriend in Texas. When the week of Christmas arrived she kept calling home and crying on the phone because she didn't have a real Christmas tree, and it wasn't cold enough in Texas, and she wasn't getting to see anybody. My Mom, of course, felt terrible and kept moaning over it "poor little thing, all alone there in Texas". I was completely unsympathetic. She made a decision (not based on financial hardship) to stay in TX and I didn't want to hear her whine about the consequences. She could have bought herself a tree, she knew it wasn't going to be cold, and she knew her family wasn't going to be there. Get over it, already!

I know, I know, I have no heart.

I understand that Moms are Moms. They live and die for their kids. I get that. But I don't think that's an excuse for acting irrationally. I don't think it excuses her for ignoring Theo so much. It seems to me that there are many ways that a mother could be a fierce advocate for their child without having the tunnel vision that Emma seems to have.

Tinkerkell123 [Spolier] I totally agree about the unasked question! Wouldn't this be the very first question? Or "what exactly happened in the house?" or how about the very simple "why did you move the body?" and I think somebody might have raised this question before, but if he's such a rule follower, how come he didn't call the police? I find it hard to believe that suddenly, out of the blue, Jacob developed enough love to want to cover up a crime for his brother. [End Spoiler]

 

[Tinkerkell123]

hmonkeyruns, I think we probably have a lot in common! I completely agree that Jacob's Aspergers is NO excuse for Emma to treat Theo the way she does. If she had paid even minimal attention to the kid, all of that would never have happened. Thank goodness I have healthy, "normal" kids! But if 1 of them had a disability I would not just blow off the other and figure they could fend for themselves...

I also agree about not whining over the consequences of your actions! If you're going to dance, you've got to pay the piper...

 

[McLoki]

Tinkerkell123 [Spolier] I find it hard to believe that suddenly, out of the blue, Jacob developed enough love to want to cover up a crime for his brother. [End Spoiler]

[/spoiler]
You are not thinking of it like someone with aspergers... It was probably not love for his brother that drove his choices, but the impact that having Theo getting arrested and thrown in jail would have on his schedules and routines. Not to mention the change that having his Mother visit Theo in jail and worry about him would have to the attention that she currently spends on Jacob.

I am sure the crime scene setup was self-serving. I think he missed the big picture though and had no idea of the risk he was putting himself in by setting up the crime scene. He tried (and succeeded) in throwing the trail off of Theo without thinking about himself being implicated.[/spoiler]
Michael

 

[hmonkeyruns]

Reply to McLoki's last post. (I didn't want to use the quote feature because it sort of un-spoils the spoilers.)

McLoki's comment:

Spoiler

You are not thinking of it like someone with aspergers... It was probably not love for his brother that drove his choices, but the impact that having Theo getting arrested and thrown in jail would have on his schedules and routines. Not to mention the change that having his Mother visit Theo in jail and worry about him would have to the attention that she currently spends on Jacob. [End Spoiler]

My response:

Spoiler

I think you make a great point but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be even more self serving if he'd let his brother take the fall and then he'd have all his mother's time and attention to himself.

The more I think about this the more frustrated I become.

If Jacob's whole life is dictated by literal interpretation of rules it seems even less likely that it would be OK to frame somebody else for Jess' murder. Wouldn't following the law - the biggest rule book in the world - be more important that "house rules"? I guess he decided the boyfriend wasn't important since he didn't like him and he suspected the physical abuse.
[End spoiler]

 

[eeyorelvr09]

I agree with both points that McLoki and hmonkeyruns are making.

Just to put my 2 cents in...

Spoiler

I felt that the ending of the book was not good. Why was it left open? is there a sequel to this? Will Theo now be put in jail and have Jacob have to deal with the daily life without his brother. I do not think that Jacob would feel that he would have his mother to himself more than he already did. Theo got shafted on this. Just to negate myself, I don't think anyone would serve time in jail for Jess' murder. If anything Theo would probably get a fine or xx amount of days in jail for breaking and entering. [end spoiler]

 

[hmonkeyruns]

I agree with you eeyorelvr99

Spoiler

Nobody is doing jailtime [end spoiler]

It's funny, I said I didn't like the book, but it's certainly making me talk about it a lot. I guess that's good....especially for a book club.

 

[Tinkerkell123]

Agree with the 3 pp's. But...

Spoiler

That iPod thing still annoys me. Why do you think they were listening to it and why didn't Emma say ANYTHING?? So you don't think anything would have happened to Theo for breaking & entering? [end spoiler]

I did like this book, though I would really love to talk to someone in real life who has a kid or kids with Aspergers to see how realistic they thought the portrayal of Jacob was.

On a side note: I had heard that people were upset when the show Big Bang Theory started because they felt like it was making fun of people with Aspergers in Sheldon's character. Of course, the writers said they aren't. If you watch this show, what do you think? Does Sheldon have Aspergers? Watched last night after having read HR and think that if he does, it's pretty mild. There are definitely similar traits there...

 

[hmonkeyruns]

I'm a little confused about Jacob's diagnosis too.

I admit that my knowledge of autism and Asperger's comes from the popular media and whatever I learned from reading The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime and watching Temple Grandin on HBO, but my understanding of Aperger's was that people with the diagnosis are high functioning and didn't have the kind of tantrums and breakdowns that Jacob seems to have all the time.

I thought that people with Asperger's had trouble with social cues and have a tendencey to be more literal than neurotypical people. I didn't think they'd have meltdowns over crumpled paper or orange signs.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Jacob seems to be more what a layperson like me would think of as "regular autistic" and not an "Aspie". I think because his diagnosis is Asperger's and not striaght up autism I expect more from him? Does that make sense?

Taking Sheldon for example: I know he doesn't like it when people sit in his spot on the couch but he doesn't have to hide under a weighted blanket when they do it either.

Does anyone know if there is an Asperger's spectrum the way there is an autism spectrum?

 

[kehlyrsmom]

Kehlyrsmom here (DW of McLoki) both of our children are on the spectrum our oldest DD has been diagnosied with Asperger's and our youngest DS moderate autistic. Asperger's is a higher functioning form of Autism, it is on the Autism spectrum.

No two people with autism or asperger's will be affected in totally the same way. For example the sound of crumpling paper may set one person off and possibly will not affect another person. But a fire alarm going off may be what set's off the person who can handle the crumpling paper sound but the person who went nuts over the paper sound may be able to tolerate the fire alarm. Also this can change what may affect or not affect one person at one point in their life may affect them later in life. Not only sounds affect people but smells, can be really bad, lightening, texture in clothes or foods. Basically all of your senses can be affected, and with our children they both have sensory issues are both affected in totally different ways. Also movement can affect you my son at times seeks out vestublar movement and will use that to calm himself.

Yes individuals with Asperger's can have melt downs. Our daughter has them quite regularly as well as our son. Makes our life quite interesting, needless to say there is never a dull moment in our household.

I thought she did an excellent good job with the way she portrayed Jacob, such a good job that I thought she might be autistic herself or have a child diagnosed with it. I did a search and found out that she has a cousin who is autistic and that she interviewd several parents of children on the spectrum.

Since we have children on the spectrum I generally do not like to read fictional books about characters on the spectrum (since I generally want to lose myself in a book and want to read it for pleasure (not relate to the life I am currently living). But we were on the flight back from our anniversary trip to WDW and I had finished the book I was reading and my husband generously offered his book for me to read.

kehlyrsmom response:

Spoiler

My personal take on why Jacob did what he did was the rules of the house were you take care of your brother he is the only one you have.

That is the reason he did what he did, he knew his brother was taking things, and he discovered that his brother had been in the house and maybe even caused her death. Everything he did was to remove any trace that his brother had been to the house. He did not like the boyfriend as he was not important to him so Jacob covered his brother's tracks with the boyfriends. I truly beleive that he did not even consider for a minute that it would come back on him. He knew he was innocent and in his reasoning I truly believe he never considered that anyone would think he was a suspect by doing what he did.

I did feel that she left the book some what open ended I would have liked to have a closure on a few things. Did the father stay in the picture, did Theo go to jail, did Oliver and Emma end up together? [End spoiler]

 

[McLoki]

I found this response from Jodi in an interview posted on Amazon (I can't post links yet, but it is on the amazon page for house rules)...


Q: Why did you choose to end the book when you did,

Spoiler

rather than going into what happens to the characters in the aftermath of the trial?

A: Because at heart, this is Jacob's book. And remember, to Jacob, there was never any real mystery here, was there?

Michael

 

[robind]

Once again, I fell into the trap of Jodi Picot - as with My Sister's Keeper, a terrible, terrible let down of an ending. I have to be at work early tomorrow, so I can not post much now, other than to say this will be the absolute last book by her that I read.