Splash Mountain- a safe post

[mouschievous]

I said this in the other post, but I would love to see a retheme. I am just old enough to have seen Song of the South as a kid, though I must have been very young because my memories are very vague - in fact, I thought the cartoons of Brer Rabbit were a thing on their own (were they, or were they in the movie? see, I'm questioning!).

I guess my point is that, at 39, I barely know what the theming is, so you know it escapes a lot of people. Why not make it more relevant, and at the same time remove something that makes people feel othered? We can't deny our history, but we certainly don't have to keep things around that are constant reminders of the bad things that were done to others.

Personally, I'd love to see a re-theme to Princess and the Frog. Tiana gets so little representation in the park, it'd be great if there was an attraction that celebrated the only black princess!

 

[TikiTikiFan]

Tiana gets so little representation in the park, it'd be great if there was an attraction that celebrated the only black princess!

So true! That’s one of my favorite Disney movies. I always thought she should have her own dedicated meet and greet in New Orleans Square. I know she wanders often but it’d be great to see her get an official spot.

 

[Disney Frenhines]

I have Song of the South on video, recorded many years ago when it was shown on the BBC here in the UK and I watched it last week for the first time in a long time. I'm not going to lie, I enjoyed it, the acting was exceptional, the animation was superb and it is no 'The Birth of A Nation' despite what some groups would have anyone who hasn't seen it, believe. However, many people fail to realise the movie is actually set after the Civil War and during the time of reconstruction, something that is actually quite obvious when you watch it. Let me be clear, it doesn't change the fact that the people depicted in the movie, including Uncle Remus, were slaves at one time and that is the reason they live there.
No one seems to want to mention Ginny's family, the little girl who befriends Johnny, a white family who clearly are not wealthy plantation owners, but, the father may work for Johnny's family. I'm not going to say anymore concerning her as it could be spoilers, as you may get the opportunity to see it eventually.
As for the article, it fails to mention that James Baskett deservedly won an honorary Oscar for his outstanding performance, you may say he deserved to win best actor and I would say I completely agree. And you could also interpret what Uncle Remus says about times being better were not about in his lifetime, but, when his descendants were free in their own country, it is free for interpretation, as no one can say definitively.
Perhaps it would be a good time for Disney to release it and have an accompanying documentary about it, the history of slavery and the lives African Americans actually did lead in the South, the African American actors in the movie and what happened to freed slaves after Emancipation, when this movie is actually set. A good way to teach younger children Black history from an early age.
The actual story is about Johnny, who is confused when he and his mother return to her family plantation and without adequate explanation his father leaves immediately. While his grandmother is kind and loving, his mother is not at all maternal and doesn't understand how her son feels, she is more about appearances. Johnny finds a caring adult in Uncle Remus who tell him the Black folklore tales he probably grew up with himself of Brer Rabbit and all those in Brer Rabbit's world, good and bad. By the way, the main animated characters are related to several of the real life characters, which is how life lessons are learned by Johnny.
For me, the greatest tragedy of the decision not to release Song of The South is that no one will get to see James Baskett's wonderful performance as Uncle Remus, surely that is unacceptable? It's one of the most memorable performances in a Disney movie. The gentleman died not long after at the tragically early age of 44. Not to mention, the always marvellous Hattie McDaniel as Aunt Tempy. None of the African American characters are portrayed in a negative manner, there are no caricatures or overtly racist portrayals, unlike in Peter Pan.
As for Splash Mountain, what part of it is racist? People want to think it racist by association to SoTS and that is not a good enough reason. Splash Mountain is based on the tales of Brer Rabbit, the same way SoTS is based on them. For goodness sake, I saw a story of a woman who is attacking Kelloggs for having a cartoon monkey on boxes of Coco Pops, so let's have a go at Kelloggs on behalf of Chinese astrological signs because they also have a tiger and a rooster on their cereal boxes, not to mention the monkey.
Racism is abhorrent, but, let's focus on real issues surrounding it, and lets not go off on a tangent with theme park rides which are a distraction from the real problems faced by POC in America and in other countries. I would like to think we are more intelligent than that.

 

[RedHotMama]

Perhaps it would be a good time for Disney to release it and have an accompanying documentary about it, the history of slavery and the lives African Americans actually did lead in the South, the African American actors in the movie and what happened to freed slaves after Emancipation, when this movie is actually set. A good way to teach younger children Black history from an early age.

That is a beautiful idea! I absolutely love it!

 

[NannyBeBe]

I see now that there will be no more Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, Mrs. Butterworth, etc. This is truly getting ridiculous. I have bought Aunt Jemima pancake mix for decades and never once have I thought of POC in a bad light when I purchased it.

 

[mentos]

I see now that there will be no more Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, Mrs. Butterworth, etc. This is truly getting ridiculous. I have bought Aunt Jemima pancake mix for decades and never once have I thought of POC in a bad light when I purchased it.

And that in itself highlights the issues POCs face, when an offensive stereotype is used and people think "it's fine"...and then when it is finally corrected, it's classified as "ridiculous" and blame is deflected back to the persons who are depicted. It's like yelling into the void, sometimes.

The imagery of Aunt Jemima is directly rooted in the minstrel shows of yore, often performed in blackface (which is also, sadly, a current issue). Uncle Ben's imagery is problematic, but so is the name... The "uncle" honorific was used by white Southerners because they didn't want to call black people "Mr." and "Mrs." In both products, African-Americans are reduced to one-dimensional servants who are happy to be serving white people. As I mentioned with Splash Mountain, not knowing the history of the imagery is not an excuse to continue using it.

Privilege is being able to claim no racism is intended or detected as long as it is someone else ("the other") being offended. I'm glad that imagery is gone, but we still have a long long way to go.

 

[TikiTikiFan]

And that in itself highlights the issues POCs face, when an offensive stereotype is used and people think "it's fine"...and then when it is finally corrected, it's classified as "ridiculous" and blame is deflected back to the persons who are depicted. It's like yelling into the void, sometimes.

Exactly, imagine the hurt this causes people. And if anyone is only in a position to only have to imagine that hurt, and not experience it firsthand, then you are definitely speaking from a place of privilege. And should probably do less speaking... and more listening. I just don't understand why people can't be more empathetic, it breaks my heart.

 

[mouschievous]

I just learned that Uncle Ben's was problematic yesterday. I thought it was named after some person's nice Uncle Ben And that, right there, is my privilege showing - the fact that I can look at something like that and think it's something nice and innocent, instead of it screaming"slavery" and "disrespect" every time I look at it.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

As international storytellers, those in the filmmaking/animation industry have more than enough opportunity NOW to make sure that the stories are universal and do not bring hurt.

Yes all these uncomfortable stories are part of North American history. Stowe's novel was the only way at that time, that most white privileged people had, especially those who did not have a face-to-face experience with slavery, to approach these ideas, to start questioning why these things were being done, and to change them. Fortunately many other POC voices were ALSO able to contribute to the published works being provided for public consumption, and more people began to realize they needed to change the laws, and their ways, but .... here we are, today.

One of those uncomfortable "ways" is that Walt preferred to go out and procure IP from authors so that the production time of his films could be more profitable. Animation at that time was ALL about caricature and stereotype. It's part of the 12 character design principles! I am sure that Walt saw the great vision of Stowe's novel and the folktales, and went with the Storyteller's angle for the Uncle Remus stories, but I am pretty sure that POC in that time, in the 1940's were not able to produce their own perspective of this novel as they were already shut out of Hollywood. Even the grand performances of the POC entertainers that won awards for their participation, won these awards from a panel of white privileged men. Hence the protests about the film's creation by the NAACP, etc.

I also have been lucky enough to have seen it as a child, due to some interesting gifted VHS circumstances, but I understand why it's both a great film and a terrible film.
the technical production is superb, as Disney was known for (casting, music, art, technology) BUT! it's NOT their story to share without significant input from POC themselves. when there is a widely-accepted POC perspective that tells Antebellum/Re-Construction stories, then those are probably the contributions to entertainment that we should be extolling. It's their tale to tell. and I am pretty sure they do not want to glamourize the subject, nor try to make light of it with the stereotypes that were perpetrated for decades, nor celebrate the morality of individuals trying to survive. Anybody want to name a whole lot of Antebellum/Re-Construction stories in Hollywood, as told by POC? Yeah they aren't happy and singing.

I realize that all things have their context, but the edits that Disney has made to their content on Disney+ are necessary for them to do for mass public consumption. It's the only way they can move forward and make a statement that there really is room no longer in the animation industry for the original iteration of the 12 character design principles. no longer is it acceptable to highlight someone's racial difference as a stereotype - we use other design principles to craft the immediate impression of a character.

And it has really recently occurred to me that as much as I love the cute singing Disney animals in Song of the South ... if the other person in the ride car on Splash Mountain just loves log flume rides, but is now having a personal bad memory of the time when she was sung "Zippety Doo Dah" and called racial slurs by her classmates, I would much rather we change the song and re-theme the ride. All those silly animals are just copies of the ones from Sleeping Beauty and Snow White anyhow!

I also understand that the Imagineers were also pressed for budgets when it came to tech and they didn't want animatronics to be a lost investment and so that is how Splash Mountain came to be. But it is a good time to re-imagine what they could do with the ride. I am absolutely sure they can find a way to have a log flume ride in WDW still.

It is a good thing to have these conversations, if we can have them peacefully.

 

[NannyBeBe]

This conversation is very one-sided so I shall stop posting and just read, lest I get in trouble.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

Respectful, open minded posting and respectful, open minded reading are both important parts of this discussion. Both are necessary here and both can be beneficial to all. Thank you to everyone so far for engaging in and encouraging each other in both.
Things can look one sided and may actually be one sided. Or they can look one sided for a time, until we learn to see the other side.

 

[Karin1984]

I think with the darker parts of history, you should not hide it, but that also doesn't mean that it should be celebrated. It needs an explanation on how things came to be, why it was good or okay then, wrong now and everything in between. Here in the Netherlands we have our own dark history as we were part of the people who brought people from Africa to the all areas of the world. Coming to terms with that is complicated. There are people here who would like to see all the characteristics Amsterdam houses along the canals removed, because some of them will have been paid for with slave money. But removing history is not the answer to move forward.

To me Splash Mountain should stay, and Song of the South should be on Disney + with an explanation. Just as I think Sunflower should be in Fantasia's pastorale (next to the released version). But also videos like the nazi propaganda short with Donald working for the nazis. There are parts of history that need explanation. I think Disneyland/World should have a space like One Man's Dream in Hollywood Studios where more of the history of Disney movies can be explained, the good and the bad. I would do it separate from the rides so people can decide for themselves when to visit it, this because with children, not every child is ready at the same age to start to learn about the darker parts of history.
And to me, for characters there should be a variation, if you have four caucasian princesses in the park on an average day, then also four non caucasion princesses. We have a handful and they all should be celebrated in the same way: Tiana, Jasmine, Pocahontas, Mulan, Moana, or even Esmeralda. Maybe we will get a new 'princess' in Pixar's Soul (don't think so looking at the cast list, but one can hope )

We need balance.

 

[jpakstis]

And that in itself highlights the issues POCs face, when an offensive stereotype is used and people think "it's fine"...and then when it is finally corrected, it's classified as "ridiculous" and blame is deflected back to the persons who are depicted. It's like yelling into the void, sometimes.

The imagery of Aunt Jemima is directly rooted in the minstrel shows of yore, often performed in blackface (which is also, sadly, a current issue). Uncle Ben's imagery is problematic, but so is the name... The "uncle" honorific was used by white Southerners because they didn't want to call black people "Mr." and "Mrs." In both products, African-Americans are reduced to one-dimensional servants who are happy to be serving white people. As I mentioned with Splash Mountain, not knowing the history of the imagery is not an excuse to continue using it.

Jumping off this comment I was trying to think what would be the white analogue to “Aunt Jemima” and the only symbol/character I could think of was Mrs. Buttersworth and that played directly into that Uncle/Mr. and Aunt/Mrs. issue. For me (a white adult male) Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben just roll right off my back. But for a POC, it reinforces stereotypes. And all of this just to sell me some pancake syrup and/or rice!

My perspective is this: if something like Aunt Jemima or Uncle Ben are so inconsequential to me as whatever they are supposed to be doing (selling me syrup and rice) but can be so damaging/offensive/hurtful to someone else, why not change it? It reminds me of the “Merry Christmas”/“Happy Holidays” greeting. It’s no skin off my back to say either one so why not say the one that is more welcoming and inclusive?

 

[ramee]

This conversation is very one-sided so I shall stop posting and just read, lest I get in trouble.

I’ve noticed that pattern in other threads. It was nice to read your posts outside of the typical narrative. I tried to wade into the waters on one to present another point of view and posters weren’t interested in being respectful. Most of it was dismissive with jokes and closed minds. Everyone seems to have things figured out.

I’ve also noticed a lot of regular posters aren’t really joining in on these topics. I’ll probably go back to not even clicking on controversial threads again.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

... I’ve also noticed a lot of regular posters aren’t really joining in on these topics. I’ll probably go back to not even clicking on controversial threads again.

One way to test the waters before joining an "iffy" thread is to check the names of the posters already involved. Certain people are known for certain behaviors. If you see the names of posters who are dependable for level headed posts and mature behavior, that might be a thread to watch and then to try joining. Agree that those threads take some looking for, but it can be worth it! You are welcome to hang out here -- we're generally a pretty friendly crew.

 

[DisLiss]

I see now that there will be no more Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, Mrs. Butterworth, etc. This is truly getting ridiculous. I have bought Aunt Jemima pancake mix for decades and never once have I thought of POC in a bad light when I purchased it.

Here's the thing---(and I mean this sincerely, not snarkily)---if it doesn't affect you, then it isn't about you. The people who see these images and are affected by it, have spoken up many times over the years and these companies are just finally taking the final step after decades of simply "updating" the images they were using. So this isn't a new issue. It's not just "now" and it's not ridiculous.

 

[DontSpamMe]

As a naturally born sarcastic person. I have ALWAYS had a natural response when I see Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's in the grocery store. The response isn't racist, more that I am mocking how images from that time period are still a thing. I'll ask my wife if she wants racist rice or the generic rice in the red box.

Look, if you choose to go down the rabbit hole and nitpick (quick google search to check the roots of that word as to not offend) what to be offended by, you will hit the motherload.

As for Splash Mountain, I have nothing but fond memories as my kids do now. I understand the concerns to a certain degree, but I also want it to be consistent. I love Lucille's BBQ. When does the axe fall on a business like that? The conversation to my kids is similar to that of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Bens.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

Stepping in with a gentle reminder to keep the main focus of this thread on helping each other learn more about this very difficult and challenging subject, not to focus on discussing who is or isn't right to be offended. This thread has been a safe place for people to share and to read -- let's do our best to make sure it stays that way!

 

[RedHotMama]

I would instinctively think that it's wrong to take away the Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima brands. At first, it seemed to me that it would be taking away more black representation. But thinking about how someone here shared that Uncle and Aunt were actually lesser titles given by slave owning whites, it changes things. I had honestly thought that those titles were created within the black communities to show an intimate, family-like relationship with each other. Even a form of respect for their children to call their neighbors Uncle and Aunt. But if that is not the case, it is very sad.
I was still struggling with the fact that if we take away any imagery of blacks during that time frame, we're erasing them. I don't want them to be left out or forgotten. (The "remember me" theme from Coco comes to mind.)
But I've realized that to show them in a light that was not so is also taking away from them, and not really "remembering" them, either.
I made a connection this morning that was meaningful to me. Should we have happy-go-lucky children's stories featuring Jews during the Holocaust? No, that wouldn't make sense. There were people that were strong, and kind, and even kept an amazingly positive attitude in that circumstance. But I don't know that we could make a successful children's movie that was bright and happy of them during that time. Maybe we could, but it would be difficult. I think we just wouldn't go there. (When I say "we", I simply mean as a people, society, whatever.)
However, the happy parts of Song of the South were visualizations of the stories that Uncle Remus told. Isn't it true that some elders would have told children's stories? Could any of them have enough happiness and energy in them to pull off Uncle Tom's storytelling? I don't know. The rest of the movie is much more mild; you feel more of the heaviness of the honesty of their situation.
I want to study more from PoC point of view from the reconstruction period. What was their life like in relation to their former owners? What was their family life like? I'm sure that there would have been vast differences for different individuals. I'd like to find a variety of accounts.
Sorry, this was long and rambling... Working some thoughts out.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

... Sorry, this was long and rambling... Working some thoughts out.

Thank you for sharing this with us. A big part of moving forward and making progress is starting the journey itself. Work the thoughts out, ask the hard questions, go where you never thought to look before -- and grow and learn and become a richer, wiser, more compassionate person in the process. A dear friend of mine used to say, "When you come to the fork in the road, don't be afraid to go where the pain is -- because that's where you'll grow." Growth... it's one thing I hope for all of us going through this unbelievable year.