Splash Mountain- a safe post

[cruisehopeful]

I visited Laura Plantation a few years ago. That is where the original written Brer Rabbit story is said to come from. They were selling copies of it, but they warned that it was nothing at all like the Disney version. So, I didn't buy it, but now I wish that I did. I'm sure I can still get a copy if I want to.

I wrote a long response in the other thread and don't want to retype the whole thing. I'll just say that although I have fond memories of Uncle Remus, if Song of the South is causing more harm than good, then I don't mind letting it go.

 

[RedHotMama]

Hmm... You've given me things to think about. So the problem with Song of the South is that Uncle Remus is happy. (sorry, this got really long...)

I read Uncle Tom's Cabin a couple years ago and found it heartbreaking and inspiring. While reading, I envisioned Uncle Tom as Uncle Remus; they are very similar characters. Song of the South is a simplified, innocent story, similar to the happier times at the beginning of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Not perfect in any way, but happier. Being a children's story, I would think that Song of the South shouldn't go into the darkness that was real in those times. It is clear in the movie that blacks were not equal. I think the movie accurately portrayed what life was like for some recently freed slaves. Would those opposed to the movie rather have the lives of blacks who were not so lucky portrayed instead? But it is a children's movie.

This week, while driving past a peaceful protest in my town, I heard someone call out "Uncle Tom," using it in a derogatory way. I didn't understand. Spurred by that, and by this conversation about Uncle Remus, led me to research. I learned that many strongly dislike the character of Uncle Tom. They think he was too subservient. But what would they have had him do? Uncle Tom had very few choices in his life. He consciously chose to intentionally control his attitude and beliefs, the only things he really owned and they couldn't take.

Uncle Tom reminds me of Corrie and Betsy ten Boom of The Hiding Place and Victor Frankl of Man's Search for Happiness. Real people who faced disgusting prejudice and saw the most ugly of human nature. But they also intentionally chose their attitudes.

Frankl said, "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way."

Corrie ten Boom, "Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart."

These people are celebrated. Why is it okay for Holocaust survivors to be positive, hopeful, forgiving, and strong in their circumstances, but black slaves with the same character are seen as weak and traitors?

 

[pharmama]

These people are celebrated. Why is it okay for Holocaust survivors to be positive, hopeful, forgiving, and strong in their circumstances, but black slaves with the same character are seen as weak and traitors?

I think the key piece to think about here is who is telling the story. The holocaust examples you've used are people telling their own stories and experiences. Song of the South (and Uncle Tom's Cabin) are fictional depictions by white people of POC and therefore readily play into many of the stereotypes and "softened" or romanticized narratives others have mentioned. Even as fiction, they are not an accurate depiction of the experience of a POC in similar real-life circumstances.

 

[TikiTikiFan]

This week, while driving past a peaceful protest in my town, I heard someone call out "Uncle Tom," using it in a derogatory way. I didn't understand. Spurred by that, and by this conversation about Uncle Remus, led me to research. I learned that many strongly dislike the character of Uncle Tom. They think he was too subservient. But what would they have had him do? Uncle Tom had very few choices in his life. He consciously chose to intentionally control his attitude and beliefs, the only things he really owned and they couldn't take.

I did a research project on that book in college and one of the things to keep in mind that this is yet again another white telling of black experience. Stowe was an avid abolitionist and the book is credited with helping to fuel the abolitionist movement, particularly by encouraging whites to get involved and advocate. But unfortunately, it left us with many of those stereotypes mentioned previously by jpakstis. Our professor always reminded us of that and we read it along with readings that were actually written by black authors about their experiences.

The "Uncle Tom" stereotype is defined as the "dutiful, long-suffering servant faithful to his white master or mistress." Uncle Tom can be used as an insult for 'selling out' your rights to be subservient to the white majority- at least, that's how I understand it.

 

[mentos]

This week, while driving past a peaceful protest in my town, I heard someone call out "Uncle Tom," using it in a derogatory way. I didn't understand.

I'm mostly staying out of this thread this time (but I'm definitely following along), but this really really stood out to me because I've always understood "Uncle Tom" to be absolutely derogatory and insulting. Not necessarily on-par with anything unprintable/unmentionable on a Disney forum, but the connotation was never ever good.

I'm not trying to be insulting/belittling, but to read that anyone found it anything other than insulting is a bit jarring for me, that's how fundamental it is to me.

 

[TikiTikiFan]

One of the comments on the previous thread that was deleted really helped me wrestle with my own nostalgia goggles over Splash and initial kneel jerk reaction of feeling resistant to retheming. It went something like 'We all go to Disney to escape and be happy. If Splash is preventing POC from feeling that way then it should be rethemed.' I can't remember exactly how it was phrased (sorry to whoever posted that, it was worded much more eloquently than that) but the idea of keeping Disney magic present for everyone is something that really helped me wrestle with this.

I have lots of childhood memories of Splash, in particular with my dad who died suddenly at a young age of alcoholism, so my first instinct is to be like 'No, not Splash!' But retheming Splash won't erase my memories and everyone deserves to go to Disney to feel the magic and not be reminded of traumatic moments in their history. I can put aside my nostalgia if it helps keep the magic pure for everyone.

And honestly, knowing how wrong Disney was with Song of the South's initial release and how they all silenced all objections of voices of color... it just solidifies that for me. It was an epic fail from the beginning.

 

[mentos]

and how they all silenced all objections of voices of color... it just solidifies that for me. It was an epic fail from the beginning.

This pretty much hits it on the head - the overarching issue is the marginalization of POC voices in mass media, which is very much alive today. It goes beyond the Black experience, but extends to other marginalized communities. I find that, sometimes, the debate over a ride like Splash Mountain functions as a proxy for a much broader discussion as to what extent people are willing to go to to acknowledge what many of us POCs have known for a long time now.

It's an uncomfortable discussion, it's much easier to blame the person being marginalized than it is to take a critical look at something. Not necessarily in this thread, but I see it in the concurrent WDW thread - someone actually reacted with "haha" on my opinion about SOS being problematic as the source material, someone else said I should just not go to Disneyland/WDW period because everything is offensive (that was the equivalent of sneering at someone and saying "all lives matter"), and other people still just say "don't ride it if it offends you" which, to me, just smacks of exclusion.

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it anyway. Is Splash Mountain racist? No. Is a majority of the source material racist? Absolutely yes. Was it an enjoyable movie for many? Of course. Do most people know the connection between ride and movie? No. Is that an excuse? No.

Bob Iger knew it when he said SOS will never be released, but he also knew re-theming a "classic" (1989/1992) ride involved moving mountains (pun intended). What was deemed an adequate enough firewall in 1983 (when the ride was first proposed) falls apart today, that was literally a generation+ ago, I don't expect societal norms to stay static over 37 years.

I often see arguments shutting down the idea of a retheme for the sake of history. My argument is this... Walt said "Disneyland is your land" (Disney, 1955) and I take that literally. These parks are the product of "the ideals, the dreams and the hard facts that have created America" (ibid). To me, at least, keeping the derivative ride of a racist, 74 year old film goes against both of these truisms.

If Disney can remove sexual assault from POTC and reassign blame for the burning cabin from Native Americans without sacrificing the soul of the park, it can and should take a closer look at Splash Mountain and sever the connection with such a problematic movie.

 

[tellingson]

Deleted

 

[mentos]

THR article today:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/disney-mum-splash-mountain-outcry-1298453

 

[RedHotMama]

Even as fiction, they are not an accurate depiction of the experience of a POC in similar real-life circumstances.

When people read Harriet Beecher Stowe's book, they could not believe it was accurate, either. They could not believe such horrendous things were actually being done to blacks in the south. So she published all her research in A Key to Uncle Tom’s Cabin.

Our professor always reminded us of that and we read it along with readings that were actually written by black authors about their experiences.

Do you have any recommendations from the black authors your professor had you read? I'd love to read them.

I'm mostly staying out of this thread this time (but I'm definitely following along), but this really really stood out to me because I've always understood "Uncle Tom" to be absolutely derogatory and insulting. Not necessarily on-par with anything unprintable/unmentionable on a Disney forum, but the connotation was never ever good.

I'm not trying to be insulting/belittling, but to read that anyone found it anything other than insulting is a bit jarring for me, that's how fundamental it is to me.

Have you read Uncle Tom's Cabin? Uncle Tom is one of the strongest characters I've read. His self-control and the strength of his convictions is impressive. He is brave and an authentically good person.

 

[TarotFox]

The central controversy around Uncle Tom's Cabin comes from the intense perpetuation of several stereotypical archetypes. Even a "positive" stereotype can be harmful in many ways. Asian Americans are frequently stereotyped as being academically superior, rule-following, business-oriented, talented, etc. This is detrimental to the real people who are real, normal people, and are not necessarily any of those things -- especially when they need access to resources. Many struggling Asian American teenagers are overlooked by school counselors when it comes time to help students apply for colleges, or for other academic tutoring. Many Asian Americans are part of families that are more recently immigrated and may not have resources people "expect" them to have from a stereotypical viewpoint. More tellingly, many people will say "Of course people stereotype Asian Americans as gifted -- they are" -- which deepens the stereotype and makes it harder for people to be seen as actual individual people. This is called the Model Minority Myth, for future reading. Likewise, many Native Americans have been harmed by the Pocahontas-style portrayal of Native Americans as magical, noble, nature communing wonderfolk.

My point in the comparisons is that positive qualities being portrayed in a fiction character such as Remus or Tom does not mean that these traits are not problematic, particularly when viewed at through a historically long lens. Also, a work of fiction can have limited usefulness as a piece of race relations. More minority-centric media has works that were lauded when they came out because they were better than the nothing that had come before, but rejected today because we have moved past that point. When you have no positive portrayals of your race in the media, anything at all is an achievement -- but maybe not positive in the grand scheme of things. If you are homeless and you find a $5 bill on the street, that's a score. But having a net worth of $5 is still not a great place to find yourself in.

 

[JayMass]

There is a lot going on here in this thread. Let me start by saying that in terms of Imagineering, I love Splash Mountain. It's one of my favorite rides at Disney. For many years I had no idea what Song of the South was and I still have never seen the movie in its entirety.

Let me also be clear--Disney should re-theme this ride ASAP. Despite my love for the ride, it is way too controversial to maintain. According to my research, Disney was on the wrong side of history when they released the movie and I fear keeping the ride the same will perpetuate the idea that Disney is only for rich white people.

I think it is incredibly brave of people on this board to be discussing their true feelings about race. If more white people actually discussed race then I think we would be in a much better place. It is important to remember that people are at different stages in their journey to truly understanding race, racism, and white privilege. I don't want to make anybody who is opening up their eyes to the legacy of slavery and oppression that is a part of our country's history feel "less than" because of where they are on their journey. Do some of the things people write make me angry? Yes. I do cringe when I read certain sentiments such as one poster who said that the beginning of Uncle Tom's Cabin portrayed "happier times." But then I need to say to myself, well they actually read that all important book! (An aside here, the term "Uncle Tom" was coined not in reaction to Stowe's book but to the horrific portrayals of him in turn of the century black face minstrel shows).

An open, non judgmental discussion about race among white people where there is no name calling and people approach it from a place of respect and open-mindedness is exactly what we need in this country.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

... An open, non judgmental discussion about race among white people where there is no name calling and people approach it from a place of respect and open-mindedness is exactly what we need in this country.

Thank you for sharing your thoughtful post. I think these kind of discussions can be helpful for everyone of all ethnicities and backgrounds. No two people have the exact same thoughts and feelings and experiences, even if they come from the same family! Being able to share in open, non-judgmental discussions with views from all sides -- where we all really want to learn about and from each other -- can be such an enriching and valuable experience. Those kinds of honest, authentic discussions help me to see and appreciate the wonderfully different lives around me.

 

[NannyBeBe]

This discussion has been excellent, to the point that I feel I can share some of my feelings.
First, let me say that I am a white lady, in my 70s. I have lived through some horrendous times in our country. What I see happening now breaks my heart.

Both of my daughters are teachers. They work long hours after school to prepare excellent lessons for their students. I can tell you that many of those students, no matter their color, do not take advantage of the wonderful opportunities they are offered. They do not want to read, they refuse to learn their multiplication facts, they refuse to do assigned tasks, etc. When their parents are consulted, they chuckle and say that they weren't good in school either. So I do not fully accept the premise that folks do not have opportunity.

As to race issues - I remember the first time I read Roots. So many times during the reading I had to lay the book down and cry. What happened in the days of slavery was unconscionable. But the past is the past. The greatest thing we can do is learn from it. No amount of tearing down or destroying will erase the past. If we do not know our past, we cannot learn from it.

As I said, I have seen a lot in my time. When I tell my daughters what life was like for POC when I was young, they are appalled. There were separate restaurants, water fountains, schools, medical care, restrooms, hair salons, motels, etc. I have vivid memories of being in a store and seeing two water fountains, one labeled "white" and one labeled "colored." I remember riding the city bus and the POC had to sit in the back row, which was a long bench along the back of the bus. If that row was full, the next person had to stand, no matter how many empty seats there were. I say all this to say that we have come a long way from those days. Changes came when POC took brave non-violent steps to make those changes.

We still have a long way to go. But we are a compassionate and caring country and we can do it. It will not be done in one day but it will be done. And we will be stronger and better than ever for it.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

This discussion has been excellent, to the point that I feel I can share some of my feelings.
First, let me say that I am a white lady, in my 70s. I have lived through some horrendous times in our country. What I see happening now breaks my heart.

Both of my daughters are teachers. They work long hours after school to prepare excellent lessons for their students. I can tell you that many of those students, no matter their color, do not take advantage of the wonderful opportunities they are offered. They do not want to read, they refuse to learn their multiplication facts, they refuse to do assigned tasks, etc. When their parents are consulted, they chuckle and say that they weren't good in school either. So I do not fully accept the premise that folks do not have opportunity.

As to race issues - I remember the first time I read Roots. So many times during the reading I had to lay the book down and cry. What happened in the days of slavery was unconscionable. But the past is the past. The greatest thing we can do is learn from it. No amount of tearing down or destroying will erase the past. If we do not know our past, we cannot learn from it.

As I said, I have seen a lot in my time. When I tell my daughters what life was like for POC when I was young, they are appalled. There were separate restaurants, water fountains, schools, medical care, restrooms, hair salons, motels, etc. I have vivid memories of being in a store and seeing two water fountains, one labeled "white" and one labeled "colored." I remember riding the city bus and the POC had to sit in the back row, which was a long bench along the back of the bus. If that row was full, the next person had to stand, no matter how many empty seats there were. I say all this to say that we have come a long way from those days. Changes came when POC took brave non-violent steps to make those changes.

We still have a long way to go. But we are a compassionate and caring country and we can do it. It will not be done in one day but it will be done. And we will be stronger and better than ever for it.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm glad you felt safe enough here to participate in this discussion.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Both of my daughters are teachers. They work long hours after school to prepare excellent lessons for their students. I can tell you that many of those students, no matter their color, do not take advantage of the wonderful opportunities they are offered. They do not want to read, they refuse to learn their multiplication facts, they refuse to do assigned tasks, etc. When their parents are consulted, they chuckle and say that they weren't good in school either. So I do not fully accept the premise that folks do not have opportunity.

I work in schools as well, so I will try to add to this. (I may flub it a little, but I'll do my best.)

I agree that there are some students - of all colors, who just don't like academics, and will avoid schoolwork at all costs. I've even observed, though it makes me kind of uncomfortable, different cultural expectations in which doing well in school is either highly valued or seen as something to hide.

But I've also seen a phenomenon in which some kids have background experiences to "hang" new information on, and others don't. For instance, I'll be reading a story with little ones in which a character goes to the beach, or the amusement park, or on an airplane. Some kids can relate immediately, because they've had those experiences themselves, so they can jump further into the story than one who has to start with trying to imagine those settings at all. - Who do you think is going to be more interested in school?

Obviously, on the surface, those opportunities seem more directly related to economic situation - but unfortunately, due to different "starting lines" in history, color is still too often a close predictor of economic situation. If your parents weren't allowed to go to a good school, even though you are, they can't really help you with your homework. So you fall a little behind the kids whose parents can...and the pattern continues.

I guess the gist of what I'm saying is that the resources kids have at home does make a difference in what they ultimately get out of the exact same school curriculum. A child can be surrounded by opportunity, but if their parents didn't have those opportunities, they may not know how to take advantage of them for their kids.

 

[Helvetica]

I'm too young to have seen Song of the South. Disney removed it from circulation long before I was born and there is no legitimate way for me to watch it, not that I have any desire to. This is an issue that comes up every few years and I see their point. I don't think this is going to become less of an issue over time and I don't think it's going away. I think it's going to continue to become more of an issue. Personally, I just don't see it as a fight worth having and I think that a retheme of the rides is inevitable. Splash Mountain has a killer track, I don't see it becoming less fun with a different story or different songs.

I also think a retheme makes a lot of sense, especially for Disneyland. Splash Mountain isn't a classic example of a log flume, it's a more modern example. For those that want a classic log flume, Knott's Berry Farms is just a few miles away. Their log flume was built in the 60's and it also has animatronics. Anaheim is also a pretty diverse city, so I can see it becoming much more of an issue for Disneyland than in Tokyo or Orland. Perhaps the biggest technical issue for Disneyland's version is the age of the animatronics. They're a lot older than the attraction itself since they were recycled from America Sings. The easiest thing for them to do is just to not fix the animatronics. When they all start to die say that you're running out of parts, that they were never designed for a log flume and that you're going to be using much more advanced animatronics for the new and improved ride that's based on a much more marketable Disney property.

I know adults were really upset when Maelstrom became Frozen Ever After, but the kids love the new ride and I think that's the most important thing. Ultimately, the Disney Parks are family parks. If a child can't see the movie that a ride is based upon, then I think it's a probably a good rule of thumb that it shouldn't be in the parks. Like, I love Deadpool, but I don't think you should have a sanitized Deadpool kiddy ride in Disneyland.

I'm not black and I'm also not yet a parent, but I just don't know how comfortable I'd be taking my child on the ride knowing what I know now. They might not know the songs playing in the que, but I know that they're minstrel songs. The kid may not know whose lines are on the walls, but I know its Uncle Remus. They may fall in love with the animated characters, but there's no way I'm showing them Song of the South. They also might think nothing of the honey scene, but I know that it's the tar baby. They also may fall in love with Zip-A-Dee-Doo da, but I know it's based on minstrel songs, including one with a racist slur in the name. I also think it would become much more complicated if I were to become a parent of a biracial child. I just can't imagine how black parents would feel with such knowledge or how they'd feel not knowing and finding out about it after taking their kid on the ride.

The focus should be on the kids, not the parents who rode the ride as kids. With that said, I think Splash would be better served with a property that all kids and all families can enjoy.

 

[NannyBeBe]

I can understand that some parents feel uncomfortable when it comes to some of the issues of our country's past, but as I said before, I feel we must teach the past so we can move forward. Prejudice begins in the home. I often shared with my children about the way life was when I was growing up and that equality is something we must constantly strive for.
Splash will probably be changed, but I fear a slippery slope that changes everything so that DLR becomes dull for fear of offending. For example, should Pooh be changed to a skinny bear so that overweight kids are not offended? It could get ridiculous.

 

[Where's Wall-E]

I can understand that some parents feel uncomfortable when it comes to some of the issues of our country's past, but as I said before, I feel we must teach the past so we can move forward. Prejudice begins in the home. I often shared with my children about the way life was when I was growing up and that equality is something we must constantly strive for.
Splash will probably be changed, but I fear a slippery slope that changes everything so that DLR becomes dull for fear of offending. For example, should Pooh be changed to a skinny bear so that overweight kids are not offended? It could get ridiculous.

You can change your weight through diet and exercise, but you can't change the colour of the skin you were born with. I would also argue that those who are overweight are not discriminated against in a systemic way the way POC are. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

While I don't disagree that we must understand history, I'm not sure riding Splash Mountain will lead to an open and frank discussion between families. It's more like, "We're so wet! Do we have time to dry before we go back to Indy?"

 

[RedHotMama]

The central controversy around Uncle Tom's Cabin comes from the intense perpetuation of several stereotypical archetypes. Even a "positive" stereotype can be harmful in many ways.

However, if one actually reads the book, you'll find that there are as many differences in the black characters are you find in any group of race or culture. Some of the blacks are angry, some are fighters, some resilient, others timid or resigned, some proud, others humble. They are shown as real people, with their individual hopes and fears. Uncle Tom is just one of the many characters you meet. And it is because he is so unique and amazing that he is the hero.

I do cringe when I read certain sentiments such as one poster who said that the beginning of Uncle Tom's Cabin portrayed "happier times."

You have to take what I said in context. Of course his life as a slave was not happy or good. But you must agree that in the beginning of the book, when he lived with his wife and children, where he was respected and reasonably safe, was much "happier" than when he was sold miles away from home and family to a vile man who absolutely hated and tortured him, whose goal was to take away any humanity or hope from his slaves, and who ended up beating him to death.

(An aside here, the term "Uncle Tom" was coined not in reaction to Stowe's book but to the horrific portrayals of him in turn of the century black face minstrel shows).

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing that.