Should DVC eliminate walking?

[RescueRanger]

But it’s not cheating. Thst is what you fail to understand. You may not like it, but no one is actually Violating the rules.

You are allowed to book a reservation for every day of the year, 11 months prior to that date. You are allowed to add an additional 6 nights at the same time. You are allowed to add days to a reservation as soon as you get into the window for that day. You are allowed to change reservations as many times as you want without penalty as long as it is 31 days or more,

Nothing in the POS says the date you want to actually show up. It says “check in date”. So, if I book November 1st, on a December, 1st, I have not violated any rule. If I change my mind, I’m allowed.

So, please tell me exactly what rule is being broken, People are not cheating. They are booking and change reservations within the current rules,

Now, you obviously don’t like the rules, and want them changed. Fine, Argue you want a system that doesn’t allow changes to reservations.
But, it is a fact that not one person, including those changing reservations multiple times are cheating and breaking rules.

You didn’t answer the question. Are people using walking to circumvent the 11 month window? The answer is a fact, yes they are. It is cheating. Just because Disney allows it doesn’t change the fact. You will never change my mind so you can move along now.

 

[Sandisw]

You didn’t answer the question. Are people using walking to circumvent the 11 month window? The answer is a fact, yes they are. It is cheating. Just because Disney allows it doesn’t change the fact. You will never change my mind so you can move along now.

I did answer your question. No one books a reservation more than 11 months out from a check in date. Disney allows it because they HAVE to allow it based on the documents of the POS which do not include penalties for changes.

You didnt answer my question as to what rule is being broken. Cheating implies not following the rules.

Walking is nothing more then booking a reservation 11 months from one date and changing the check in date...and changing reservations IS allowed.

Are people changing reservations for a reason? Yes. They are. Do they go in knowing they will be changing them? Yup! Does changing reservations allow them to get better dates? Sure does! Is it cheating? Nope. Completely within the rules. Motive makes NO difference per our contract.

Keep thinking what you want...you can...but a first come, first serve system means I get to book whatever date I want, whenever I want, and cancel and change it whenever I want. That is what I..and you...bought..that is what we signed on for when we bought this points based system.

Just because you don’t like this reason for changing doesn’t mean people are cheating the system.

ETA: I am not trying to change your mind,,,but will debate a point that isn’t accurate Based on our current booking system.

 

[RescueRanger]

I am not going to post what I wanted to post it wouldn’t be very nice. So, I will leave it at this. Like Webmaster Pete, I will not partake in the practice, because it would make me feel dirty. If y’all have no problem, let your conscience be your guide. Peace out.

 

[the_grinch]

I am not going to post what I wanted to post it wouldn’t be very nice. So, I will leave it at this. Like Webmaster Pete, I will not partake in the practice, because it would make me feel dirty. If y’all have no problem, let your conscience be your guide. Peace out.

Taking my football and going home

 

[CarolMN]

NEW (rhetorical) QUESTION:

Should this thread be closed?

We seem to be repeating the same information/opinions over and over again.

It's OK to disagree. I'm hoping this will be the last post in this thread so that it can quietly sink into oblivion and the subject remain dormant until next year. (hint, hint)

 

[Philsfan77]

There really is a simple answer because walking is cheating. If your reservation has several changes, it would be flagged for review. A CM would then check and see if the person was walking or just changing a few dates. If it was found to be a walked reservation, the reservation would be cancelled and a 48 hour hold would be placed on the member account, so that they could not make reservations during that period. Notice would have to be sent out to outline the new policy beforehand. There is no one that can deny that walking is used to bypass the 11 month window. That is a fact, and I would say that Disney has a legal obligation to enforce it.

Let's play with this idea just for hypotheticals...how many changes define several to be flagged?

 

[Philsfan77]

I am not going to post what I wanted to post it wouldn’t be very nice. So, I will leave it at this. Like Webmaster Pete, I will not partake in the practice, because it would make me feel dirty. If y’all have no problem, let your conscience be your guide. Peace out.

I personally won't have to walk often as I typically will book 1 bedrooms and 2 bedrooms...but if I did...I would never feel dirty for doing what is necessary to get the dates my family wants...you can call it selfish...self-centered...dirty...cheating...any other derogatory adjective you can come up with, but I didn't buy into to DVC to make your family happy...I bought in to make my family happy...and if walking a reservation is required to keep my kids happy...you can call me any name you want, and I will laugh all the day to Disney in that hard to get room.

 

[Philsfan77]

NEW (rhetorical) QUESTION:

Should this thread be closed?

We seem to be repeating the same information/opinions over and over again.

It's OK to disagree. I'm hoping this will be the last post in this thread so that it can quietly sink into oblivion and the subject remain dormant until next year. (hint, hint)

I wish I saw this post before I responded...sorry!!!

 

[TraderSamWDW]

I understand the feelings and emotions here. Right or wrong, walking would not be needed as much, if at all, If ppl didn't book high demand weeks on speculation for premium rental purposes. I dont think they could stop that but I wish they would/ could

 

[bookwormde]

Carol,

While I realize your question was rhetorical, I would vote yes, but I am afraid this one will pop up again and aging and again and again.

In the hope of preventing that, or at least keeping future discussion more fact based and civil I am offering the following.

(please delete this post if it is not helpful in keeping this topic closed for at least some time)



I think the issue of “fairness” when it comes to changes after the original POS or even the point that an individual purchases will always be controversial since it brings up if equity is maintained between members, even though that is not the standard for “legal” changes

While some view it differently, but by allowing 6 days of forward booking (beyond the original 11 month window) when the first day of your reservation reaches the 11 month window, was a big one, essentially allowing those with adequate points to book 7 days an advantage in regards to walking as compared to those members who do not have enough points when the final desired reservation if less than 7 days, as well as expanding the issue of temporarily tying up days that the reserving member has no intention to keep

Here is the DVC language to avoid misreading or misremembering:

“Your booking window gives you the ability to make reservations up to 11 months in advance of your Check-In date at your Home Resort, and 7 months in advance of your Check-In date at all other Disney Vacation Club Resorts.

When the online booking window opens at 8:00 AM Eastern Time, you can book a stay of up to 7 consecutive nights!”



As I remember it 1 day at a time booking was creating a lot of fragmentation on high demand reservations and this was the driving force behind the change.

I hope we all can agree that it is “legal” and know that we will continue to disagree if it is appropriate, and have productive discussion on if it is in the best interest of the majority of members which is Florida’s standard for any changes to timeshare policies.

 

[sethschroeder]

Let's play with this idea just for hypotheticals...how many changes define several to be flagged?

So Disney would know not us. They know average daily changes across the board, unquie accounts doing changes, average changes at what point in the window, start dates and end dates that were booked.

I work in way more complicated systems than DVC booking. If I had the data I likely could easily come up with an account flagging system in a week followed by a couple months of adjustments.

It wouldn't be perfect but would make it easily manageable as a side task for someone working for DVC to review and catch the abusers.

A good example is the first flagging and first year wouldn't do anything possibly. Instead it would be a look back at higher than predicted changes.

Another good example is the change of when Day 1 was. This would be another portion of the flagging system.

Lots of options for flagging accounts if they cared. They don't.

 

[Philsfan77]

So Disney would know not us. They know average daily changes across the board, unquie accounts doing changes, average changes at what point in the window, start dates and end dates that were booked.

I work in way more complicated systems than DVC booking. If I had the data I likely could easily come up with an account flagging system in a week followed by a couple months of adjustments.

It wouldn't be perfect but would make it easily manageable as a side task for someone working for DVC to review and catch the abusers.

A good example is the first flagging and first year wouldn't do anything possibly. Instead it would be a look back at higher than predicted changes.

Another good example is the change of when Day 1 was. This would be another portion of the flagging system.

Lots of options for flagging accounts if they cared. They don't.

My point really in asking that, is that allowing even one change...won't in theory stop walking. 1 change would allow me to technically walk up to 13 days...2 changes would allow me to walk up to 19 days...3 changes up to 25 days.

 

[quandrea]

I still think the crux of the problem is low point ownership. I’ve only ever walked once—a GV at OKW for the last week in June. I saw it booking up and started a walk about a week before I needed the villa. Otherwise, if what I absolutely wanted isn’t available, I book something else—a larger unit, a different view, another resort. In 12 years I have never been shut out of a trip I wanted to take. I’ve also booked many trips with as little as a week’s notice.

The thing that makes this possible is the number of points I own. If I didn't own a significant amount, I would not have the built in flexibility the system intended. This is on Disney allowing small buy ins due to their now astronomical point prices.

 

[sethschroeder]

My point really in asking that, is that allowing even one change...won't in theory stop walking. 1 change would allow me to technically walk up to 13 days...2 changes would allow me to walk up to 19 days...3 changes up to 25 days.

Except again over the course of time that could be flagged.

A good example is your start date for your vacation. If your start date through modifications moved 7 days, 14 days, 21 days there is possibly a way to flag that. The follow up is to look at your past reservations as well as time of year.

If your final reservation lands on Priority 1 dates (first week of december) and started in Priority 3 dates (mid november) that would be another good example of the system automatically flagging for review.

It could also track patterns over time. If you yearly make a reservation for New Years even but always modify in to that booking window that could be identified.

Its all about data, building in a scoring system for non-standard actions, and then flagging an account that has a high enough score. It then goes for manual review and they look at that specific reservation as well as historical bookings you have completed.

So your 2 changes for 13 days could be identified as a systematic process of how you book.

Someone walking 1 time ever though could fly under the radar with minor adjustments.

 

[crvetter]

Except again over the course of time that could be flagged.

A good example is your start date for your vacation. If your start date through modifications moved 7 days, 14 days, 21 days there is possibly a way to flag that. The follow up is to look at your past reservations as well as time of year.

If your final reservation lands on Priority 1 dates (first week of december) and started in Priority 3 dates (mid november) that would be another good example of the system automatically flagging for review.

It could also track patterns over time. If you yearly make a reservation for New Years even but always modify in to that booking window that could be identified.

Its all about data, building in a scoring system for non-standard actions, and then flagging an account that has a high enough score. It then goes for manual review and they look at that specific reservation as well as historical bookings you have completed.

So your 2 changes for 13 days could be identified as a systematic process of how you book.

Someone walking 1 time ever though could fly under the radar with minor adjustments.

Doesn’t this entire system of creating flags rely specifically upon identifying outliers. This would them imply it wasn’t many people actually walking thus the effort is truly a waste or MS resources to go and verify each “flagged” reservation. If walking is so prevalent it would be hard to identify problem reservations because they wouldn’t be an outlier anymore thus it wouldn’t be reasonably possible to catch most of the walkers.

I personally lean its outliers and more often than not threads like this that are self fulfilling. They intend to kill walking but they create fear and flame the fire about a truly small problem but keep doing it then it can get bigger. But as other said making walking illegal and value studios will still be sold out each day at 11 months just the strategy of following the walkers would disappear. All the suggested efforts to curb walking truly just make the system restrictive for no real reason, IMO.

 

[sethschroeder]

I still think the crux of the problem is low point ownership. I’ve only ever walked once—a GV at OKW for the last week in June. I saw it booking up and started a walk about a week before I needed the villa. Otherwise, if what I absolutely wanted isn’t available, I book something else—a larger unit, a different view, another resort. In 12 years I have never been shut out of a trip I wanted to take. I’ve also booked many trips with as little as a week’s notice.

The thing that makes this possible is the number of points I own. If I didn't own a significant amount, I would not have the built in flexibility the system intended. This is on Disney allowing small buy ins due to their now astronomical point prices.

Couple things though:

• Why would someone pay for 1 1/2 weeks of vacation when they only need 1 week
• Why would they book another resort when there is a solution
• Why would they book another room category when there is a solution

If getting my perfect vacation room takes me 2 mins every week for a couple months to walk a reservation why am I not going to do that?

In addition BWV has walking problems to an extent and that was under the old system. There is a small group that might have small resale contracts but it has to be a tiny portion of the larger membership there.

The biggest issue with walking is simply the point balance by time of year is not correct.

Also would not like it but a Studio and 1BR possibly should be much closer in point requirements if a 1BR books up that much slower.

 

[zavandor]

Doesn’t this entire system of creating flags rely specifically upon identifying outliers. This would them imply it wasn’t many people actually walking thus the effort is truly a waste or MS resources to go and verify each “flagged” reservation. If walking is so prevalent it would be hard to identify problem reservations because they wouldn’t be an outlier anymore thus it wouldn’t be reasonably possible to catch most of the walkers.

I personally lean its outliers and more often than not threads like this that are self fulfilling. They intend to kill walking but they create fear and flame the fire about a truly small problem but keep doing it then it can get bigger. But as other said making walking illegal and value studios will still be sold out each day at 11 months just the strategy of following the walkers would disappear. All the suggested efforts to curb walking truly just make the system restrictive for no real reason, IMO.

Well said.
Walking is now the perfect scapegoat for problems mostly created by Disney.
How many time have we read thread like "all rooms disappear every day within seconds reservations open, we must stop walking!".

Walking affects just a few hundred rooms and most of them just during fall frenzy. There are thousands or rooms in the DVC system. Any restriction DVC will introduce will hurt more members than walking does.

 

[crisi]

I was at HHI last week, and all over the pool there were signs saying "please do not save pool chairs with personal items." And I thought back on this thread. Walking a room is like saving a pool chair. It isn't available when someone wants it because your stuff is on it - although you have no intention of using that chair at that moment in time - or even for the next few hours. You could even say the pool chair problem is a problem created by Disney - too many guests, not enough pool chairs for high season. And although Disney has gotten to the posting signs point of establishing "rules" - they really haven't taken any steps to curtail the saving of pool chairs - it isn't "illegal" and it won't get you kicked out of the resort or even reprimanded - and if you complain to lifeguards, some will even tell you to stake your claim with a towel. But its still rude to save a pool chair.

 

[crisi]

Oh, and point balance isn't going to change the simple fact that Food and Wine is very popular and the Epcot resorts are very popular for Food and Wine - with many owners buying just for that period of time. Its like HHI in Summer - most owners bought for that period in time - that makes getting a room there easy for non-home resort owners in January - but even home resort owners can find themselves looking at a full resort for Summer if they aren't on the ball with their reservation. BWV in particular has the additional problem of standard views being a bargain - any point adjustment is going to keep standard views a bargain, and they will be hard to book for that season.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

Doesn’t this entire system of creating flags rely specifically upon identifying outliers. This would them imply it wasn’t many people actually walking thus the effort is truly a waste or MS resources to go and verify each “flagged” reservation. If walking is so prevalent it would be hard to identify problem reservations because they wouldn’t be an outlier anymore thus it wouldn’t be reasonably possible to catch most of the walkers.

I personally lean its outliers and more often than not threads like this that are self fulfilling. They intend to kill walking but they create fear and flame the fire about a truly small problem but keep doing it then it can get bigger. But as other said making walking illegal and value studios will still be sold out each day at 11 months just the strategy of following the walkers would disappear. All the suggested efforts to curb walking truly just make the system restrictive for no real reason, IMO.

I was at HHI last week, and all over the pool there were signs saying "please do not save pool chairs with personal items." And I thought back on this thread. Walking a room is like saving a pool chair. It isn't available when someone wants it because your stuff is on it - although you have no intention of using that chair at that moment in time - or even for the next few hours. You could even say the pool chair problem is a problem created by Disney - too many guests, not enough pool chairs for high season. And although Disney has gotten to the posting signs point of establishing "rules" - they really haven't taken any steps to curtail the saving of pool chairs - it isn't "illegal" and it won't get you kicked out of the resort or even reprimanded - and if you complain to lifeguards, some will even tell you to stake your claim with a towel. But its still rude to save a pool chair.

These are both like examples of problems created by the fear of the problem.

With the pools, I would say literally half the time I am at one and come out of the pool, 50% of the chairs are unoccupied , but reserved. If no one reserved one, they would almost always be available. But fear comes in and exacerbates the problem.