Say Goodbye to the Auction Scene in Pirates

[mummabear]

So do I. Even called and complained when I found out. Lol like It mattered. I had been told by a cm it had been in the planning for 3 years before the announcement had been made officially.
I'm telling you, I really am having a hard time attempting to enjoy DLR like I use to. I just can't seem to pull it off. Just too many changes that ruffle me feathers to the point of looking like a naaked chicken. Lol ;(

I'm not quite there yet but DZh sure is.

 

[mummabear]

Jumping in here way late but I have been reading along. I'm kind of indifferent to the whole thing. I understand why they would want to get rid of it but I personally wouldn't care if it stayed. I also do not care if they change it. It's not detrimental to the ride imo and I'm sure I'll like it just the same. I'm one of those people that doesn't really care when they change things though. I like seeing change and progress. I love when new things are introduced and don't even mind if and when beloved rides are changed. I'd be interested to see what kind of change could happen to a ride that might actually make me upset about it.

For me it's not do much the change (although I think the new scene is silly) but the reason for the change that is the issue.
Also it's money being wasted instead of invested in any number of more positive investments.

 

[Kirbie]

"Times and conditions change so rapidly that we must keep our aim constantly focused on the future." ~ Walt Disney

I agree! I am pleased with the change! Women, or any human, should not be sold as property, even in a joking manner. It's 2017.

And I would like to mention Tom's comment from this week's podcast which went something along the lines of "This has been here for 40 years and people are just now getting offended?" Actually, people have been offended by it for quite some time. Just because your world view means you're not offended by it, does not mean that everyone feels that way. I am pleased with the change and look forward to seeing it soon.

 

[jerry557]

I agree! I am pleased with the change! Women, or any human, should not be sold as property, even in a joking manner. It's 2017.

But it's not supposed to be 2017 in the ride. The time period is hundreds of years ago.

And if the artist rendering is accurate, it's going to be cheesy as all heck. There is now going to be this prominent female pirate holding a gun like it's the wild west? It looks terrible and is going to look out of place.

 

[Metalliman98]

But it's not supposed to be 2017 in the ride. The time period is hundreds of years ago.

And if the artist rendering is accurate, it's going to be cheesy as all heck. There is now going to be this prominent female pirate holding a gun like it's the wild west? It looks terrible and is going to look out of place.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is that no one will be offended. These are our priorities in 2017. You will be assimilated, resistance is futile.

 

[Deadp00l]

The very first thing you see right before you enter the park...

Does this not have meaning anymore?

 

[Disney Dory]

And if the artist rendering is accurate, it's going to be cheesy as all heck. There is now going to be this prominent female pirate holding a gun like it's the wild west? It looks terrible and is going to look out of place.[/QUOTE]

I agree! IF the artist rendering is accurate, it totally looks out of the wild west!! LOL!

 

[Aimee_Jane83]

Today I was watching Disneyland ride videos on Youtube with my 11 year old step daughter as I am taking her next May for her first trip. She pointed out the auction scene as she didn't understand it. I happily gave her a history lesson. She wasn't offended but was more fascinated by it. It was a very teachable moment. I personally think they should keep it as it is an iconic scene, but if they got rid of it and replaced it I don't think I would be too heart broken by it either. That ride is amazing and I will love it with or without that scene.

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

I happily gave her a history lesson.

Sounds like a good experience for you and your daughter. Just a point of note. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is nothing historical about this scene. I wanted to make sure that it's known that that kind of thing never happened. Not because they considered it wrong, but because they would have considered it impractical.

Pirates, in fact, had a specific morality about them. It may not have aligned with our morality today, but a lot of them had a clear sense of what was right and what was wrong. Bartholomew Roberts, for instance, "Black Bart", was considered particularly ruthless with the prisoners he took. Even other pirates balked at his cruelty as most of them had a line they didn't cross with how they should treat prisoners.

Female pirates, while rare, were very much a reality. In fact, two of the most famous female pirates are featured in the ride as a painting (Mary Read and Anne Bonny). There's a very famous pirate from China whose name escapes me also who was known for direct confrontations with the Navy.

The new scene will look out of place but no more than the current one does. I really wish they made the new scene pirates separating the town's people from their belongings, maybe by a point of a sword or a muzzle of a pistol. Chuck the whole auction concept overboard. I honestly think that would make both sides happy too. People who were offended by the old scene would be at ease and people concerned about historical accuracy or a scene that is un-PC would be satisfied as well. That being said, I'm sure my proposal is a lot more expensive than what they currently have planned.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Sounds like a good experience for you and your daughter. Just a point of note. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is nothing historical about this scene. I wanted to make sure that it's known that that kind of thing never happened. Not because they considered it wrong, but because they would have considered it impractical.

Pirates, in fact, had a specific morality about them. It may not have aligned with our morality today, but a lot of them had a clear sense of what was right and what was wrong.

Female pirates, while rare, were very much a reality. In fact, the two most famous female pirates are featured in the ride as a painting (Mary Read and Anne Bonny). The new scene will look out of place but no more than the current one does. I really wish they made the new scene pirates separating the town's people from their belongings, maybe by a point of a sword or a muzzle of a pistol. Chuck the whole auction concept overboard. I honestly think that would make both sides happy too. People who were offended by the old scene would be at ease and people concerned about historical accuracy or a scene that is un-PC would be satisfied as well. That being said, I'm sure my proposal is a lot more expensive than what they currently have planned.

You're claiming that they didn't rape, pillage, and plunder? I'm curious- I haven't heard anyone argue that real pirates had a specific morality about them!

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

You're claiming that they didn't rape, pillage, and plunder? I'm curious- I haven't heard anyone argue that real pirates had a specific morality about them!

I'm not claiming that at all. I'm claiming they never held auctions for brides. That would have been impractical, especially in a town that they just sacked. Morality is a sense of right and wrong. It's relative not only to the society but to the time period of when the system is created.

**Edit

I'll give you and example. Executing prisoners or mistreating them (up to and including sexual assault) may have been considered wrong by many pirates, but not for the same reason you and I would think it was wrong. They lived by their reputations, and most of them preferred to avoid armed conflict as much as possible. A nice, orderly surrender without a fight was the best possible scenario for them. If you want someone to surrender their ship or their town as it were without a fight, you surely didn't want them thinking you would kill or assault them if they did in fact surrendered. Bad behavior in this case would have been bad for business and therefore would have likely been frowned upon by most pirates.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I'm not claiming that at all. I'm claiming they never held auctions for brides. That would have been impractical, especially in a town that they just sacked. Morality is a sense of right and wrong. It's relative not only to the society but to the time period of when the system is created.

Piracy wasn't approved in that time period either. Nor was prostitution, or even the slave trade, really. Pirates were criminals, and pretty much the bottom dredges of society. I agree that the auction was impractical and unlikely- more likely that they'd kidnap the women or kill them outright. I was just confused by your claim that pirates had a specific morality.

 

[FryingPansWhoKnew]

I was just confused by your claim that pirates had a specific morality.

I understand. I edited and provided some more info and context. I'm not saying those things never happened, I'm saying it was probably less common than we think it was.

Pirates were criminals, and pretty much the bottom dredges of society.

Eh, I would tend to disagree with that to a certain extent. A lot of them (not all) were definitely criminals, but many of them turned to piracy out of desperation (much like Will Turner). Young men were pressed into service at a very young age usually because the sovereign power was engaged in a war. When wars ended, several years later, they were discharged...with one skill only. How to operate a vessel on the sea. What do you do for a living if the crown doesn't want you any longer and you only know how to do one thing?

It's easy to dismiss them as devilish brutes and misfits (surely a lot of them were), but I'm reluctant to see them all that way. They actually were quite modern in their thinking. They had a democratic command structure. Captains were elected by their crews and it was the job of the quartermaster to make sure that power was not abused (checks and balances). Punishment on board was often far less severe than on regular naval and merchant vessels of the time.

I'm someone who knows the history of pirates fairly well, probably a little more than most other people. I don't find the removal of the auction scene troubling.

 

[Aimee_Jane83]

I wish they would add Jack the monkey into the ride.

 

[cruisehopeful]

The area surrounding Disneyland has rampant sex trafficking. I remember hearing about it a while back and just googled it and apparently it's the busiest and most expensive market for sex trafficking in the state. At this point, I picture a young woman, heck maybe even a teen who was rescued from trafficking and being eased back into mainstream American. Let's say they get to go to Disneyland which is something that they probably never imagined being able to do. I don't want them to be exposed to POTC and that is one of my favorite rides.

I think it's easy for most people not to think about what is going on in the back streets of Anaheim and the rest of Orange County, but my church actually rescues people from trafficking rings (in San Diego), so I hear about it a lot. It's shocking what a big business it is and how close to home it is. I hate changes to classic rides at Disneyland, but some things are more important than my nostalgic feelings.

 

[HydroGuy]

The area surrounding Disneyland has rampant sex trafficking. I remember hearing about it a while back and just googled it and apparently it's the busiest and most expensive market for sex trafficking in the state. At this point, I picture a young woman, heck maybe even a teen who was rescued from trafficking and being eased back into mainstream American. Let's say they get to go to Disneyland which is something that they probably never imagined being able to do. I don't want them to be exposed to POTC and that is one of my favorite rides.

I think it's easy for most people not to think about what is going on in the back streets of Anaheim and the rest of Orange County, but my church actually rescues people from trafficking rings (in San Diego), so I hear about it a lot. It's shocking what a big business it is and how close to home it is. I hate changes to classic rides at Disneyland, but some things are more important than my nostalgic feelings.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I just do not see it the same way at Disney parks though. Over Memorial Day I visited WDW for a week with my wife's DS26 on a guy's trip. His first trip to WDW and we had a great time. He was a sniper in the army and served in Iraq and Afghanistan and experienced some horrendous things which impacts him at times with PTSD. He lost many friends in combat.

On Memorial Day (of all days) we were at Epcot and we decided to see the Illuminations fireworks show. We had a front row view from the Rose & Crown pub in World Showcase. We know that fireworks can trigger PTSD but he is usually fine when he knows what to expect. That night he wasn't and hunched down and broke into tears and shaking.

I suppose someone somewhere could make the case that Disney should not have fireworks shows because of how it can affect our respected veterans who served in combat and have PTSD. I would say that maybe it is best for vets to make their own decision and to choose to avoid it if they are concerned - and let others enjoy it for whom there is no negative effect. Next time we will avoid Illuminations. I am not trying to argue the morality of fireworks vs. the POTC scene. Personally I do not see a morality issue with either as I have stated earlier in this thread and will not repeat myself. I am just saying people can avoid things they find potentially objectionable.

Along similar lines, I know people of faith who find the deeply ingrained witchcraft elements of Harry Potter highly objectionable. Rather than try to get those elements removed from the Harry Potter rides at Universal Studios (which would so alter the rides so as to make them unrecognizable IMO) perhaps it is best they just do not visit there?

 

[Westcoastwild]

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I just do not see it the same way at Disney parks though. Over Memorial Day I visited WDW for a week with my wife's DS26 on a guy's trip. His first trip to WDW and we had a great time. He was a sniper in the army and served in Iraq and Afghanistan and experienced some horrendous things which impacts him at times with PTSD. He lost many friends in combat.

On Memorial Day (of all days) we were at Epcot and we decided to see the Illuminations fireworks show. We had a front row view from the Rose & Crown pub in World Showcase. We know that fireworks can trigger PTSD but he is usually fine when he knows what to expect. That night he wasn't and hunched down and broke into tears and shaking.

I suppose someone somewhere could make the case that Disney should not have fireworks shows because of how it can affect our respected veterans who served in combat and have PTSD. I would say that maybe it is best for vets to make their own decision and to choose to avoid it if they are concerned - and let others enjoy it for whom there is no negative effect. Next time we will avoid Illuminations. I am not trying to argue the morality of fireworks vs. the POTC scene. Personally I do not see a morality issue with either as I have stated earlier in this thread and will not repeat myself. I am just saying people can avoid things they find potentially objectionable.

Along similar lines, I know people of faith who find the deeply ingrained witchcraft elements of Harry Potter highly objectionable. Rather than try to get those elements removed from the Harry Potter rides at Universal Studios (which would so alter the rides so as to make them unrecognizable IMO) perhaps it is best they just do not visit there?

I don't really think the people who object to Harry Potter are going to Universal in droves. I've met a few families like that, and they also seem to disapprove of every other kind of popular culture, including simpsons, minions, shrek, Spider-Man...

I agree with your point about PTSD. I think the PP was really reaching about local sex trade. It's a problem, but Pirates being a trigger is pretty low on the list of stuff those folks would be dealing with. If Disney had got a complaint along those lines from their advocates, that ride would already be altered.

 

[paintingoncelluloid]

I'm really surprised by the number of times I've seen the argument in this thread comparing a scene that depicts a sexual slave trade with scenes depicting theft and arson. These are extremely different scenes showing extremely different kinds of crime. One is a scene depicting the debasement of fellow human beings—who are shown literally tied up and crying, while pirates (and ride guests!) laugh at their despair—and the others are scenes depicting property crimes. Theft isn't good, sure, but on the scale of human evil it's nowhere close to human trafficking and rape. Losing money to theft or arson is not the same thing as losing freedom or sexual autonomy. There is no way for a "slippery slope" argument to apply in this case.

I've also never been in the position of having to explain this particular scene to a child, but I have had to explain rape jokes in other scenarios, and why other adults have laughed at them. In every case, it has made the kids feel terrible that 1) sometimes adults attack each other, 2) some adults think that those attacks are funny, and 3) even adults who don't think those attacks are funny themselves nevertheless condone other adults joking about it, because it is more important to them to protect joking adults than it is to protect the feelings of people who might be hurt. And I don't blame the kids for feeling bad, because it makes me sad that all of these things are true, too.

Every time that Disney updated POTC without altering that scene, they endorsed that scene—each time they said that other aspects of the ride needed to be changed but that scene did not, they said that scene was worth keeping. Which put Disney, as a company, in either group two (the adults who think sexual slavery is funny) or group three (the adults who don't think sexual slavery is funny but care more about protecting the people that do than the people who that scene might hurt). And, I have to say, I am more comfortable and happier going to a Disneyland that is run by people who no longer want to be in either one.

 

[BigAlsGal]

Boo! Just friggin boo on all of it!!! It's the best scene in the whole dang ride. Let's just have the pirates skipping around, singing songs, hugging all the townsfolk, and baking cookies.

 

[HydroGuy]

I'm really surprised by the number of times I've seen the argument in this thread comparing a scene that depicts a sexual slave trade with scenes depicting theft and arson. These are extremely different scenes showing extremely different kinds of crime. One is a scene depicting the debasement of fellow human beings—who are shown literally tied up and crying, while pirates (and ride guests!) laugh at their despair—and the others are scenes depicting property crimes. Theft isn't good, sure, but on the scale of human evil it's nowhere close to human trafficking and rape. Losing money to theft or arson is not the same thing as losing freedom or sexual autonomy. There is no way for a "slippery slope" argument to apply in this case.

I've also never been in the position of having to explain this particular scene to a child, but I have had to explain rape jokes in other scenarios, and why other adults have laughed at them. In every case, it has made the kids feel terrible that 1) sometimes adults attack each other, 2) some adults think that those attacks are funny, and 3) even adults who don't think those attacks are funny themselves nevertheless condone other adults joking about it, because it is more important to them to protect joking adults than it is to protect the feelings of people who might be hurt. And I don't blame the kids for feeling bad, because it makes me sad that all of these things are true, too.

Every time that Disney updated POTC without altering that scene, they endorsed that scene—each time they said that other aspects of the ride needed to be changed but that scene did not, they said that scene was worth keeping. Which put Disney, as a company, in either group two (the adults who think sexual slavery is funny) or group three (the adults who don't think sexual slavery is funny but care more about protecting the people that do than the people who that scene might hurt). And, I have to say, I am more comfortable and happier going to a Disneyland that is run by people who no longer want to be in either one.

A comparison that may be more morally equivalent is Haunted Mansion. A woman kills five husbands apparently with an ax and with a smile on her face. I cannot remember the whole narrator spiel while riding the doom buggies, but as I recall the narrator thinks the whole thing is kind of a joke.

This thread has discussed this at length as have I, so I will not repeat myself. Anyone interested can see my previous posts. I personally do not see your group 2 or 3. I see an amusement park ride not endorsing anything in particular and not trying to advocate for any time of immoral behavior. People who do see this, well, I am not sure a Disney park is the right place for them based on how they view the world and their apparent propensity to see things in a literal fashion.

Similarly, parents who allow their children to dress up at Halloween as characters from mass murder movies like Scream (complete with masks that allow kids to make blood drip down their face - my own kids did that one year when they were young) are not supporting mass murderers in my view. They are allowing their kids to participate in a fanciful tradition and cultural holiday. And to just have fun. No moral component needed on mass murder. Anyone who wants to try to put this in a literal context can find millions of parents to blame every Halloween for supporting all kinds of immoral and dangerous behavior.