Potential Buyer, Availability (sorry for the length)

[Ozznato]

Hello All (sorry for the book below)

My parents (Retired and soon-to-be) fell in love with Riviera on a recent stay and got very hooked by a lovely salesperson (DVC Guide?). I happened to be joining them on the trip the day after they went on their tour and there was a true glimmer in their eyes that I had not seen in a long time, including tears in my mother's eyes when talking about making this investment as something that could be passed down to my kids (I'm an only child)((I also don't have any kids yet)). There is one problem with this - they are, self-admittedly, not "Disney People." They certainly enjoy going, love the restaurants and resorts, but they definitely don't visit the parks enough where I think that membership is a no-brainer. They've also only ever stayed at Wilderness Lodge and now Boardwalk, and have toured Riviera. The other wrinkle to this is that my wife is definitely not a "Disney Person." She will go and have fun, but I don't think a yearly trip is going to be in the cards for us. While I wouldn't consider myself a "Disney Person" ... it certainly scratches an itch. I don't think I can in good conscious say that I wouldn't enjoy myself considering I just flew down for two days of park hopping, Savi's workshop, Rise twice, Guardians once, 4 Genie + reservations stacked in line with park hopping times, walking back to Boardwalk in the rain (twice) after the boats shutdown, riding the Skyliner for fun, etc. I can lean-in to just about anything.

All that being said, I saw how excited my parents were and, as the person who will inevitably be tasked with running the reservations etc. if they actually DO become members, I set about reading threads here and articles elsewhere about the process, the Riviera Resale Restriction (something my parents never mentioned when I was with them), etc. Their idea as members would be 200 points a year so that we (all four of us) could spend a week together in two studios (or some combination) at Riviera, and eventually take our kids with us.

Given everything above, one of the things that I (and they) find most intriguing is the non-WDW properties. While I do not see us going to WDW every year, I can certainly see a 4-year rotation of WDW, Aluani, Vero Beach, and Hilton Head making sense. The Hilton Head property is, in particular, interesting to me as my wife and I recently moved to North Carolina, and would be able to drive to the property for weekend getaways.

With all that being said, a smattering of questions:

First and foremost, what is availability of the 3 non-WDW properties like at the 7 month mark? Will we be effectively locked out of (or severely limited at) these properties since we will only have a 7-month window?

Should I just try and convince my parents to buy resale at either HHI or Vero (thereby preventing them from ever booking Riviera through DVC for which my mom will kill me)?

Maybe with the Riviera resale restrictions I should push them to a different WDW resort?

I know from reading threads that using DVC points for non-Disney properties (using II or anything else) is usually a financial waste, is that people's experience? If they didn't want to go to WDW one year how easily are rentals accomplished to get some cash back?

Honestly, any and all opinions or commentary regarding the above is appreciated. I read a post in an unrelated thread that suggested 100 points a year to someone, which really clicked in my brain as a great idea to accomplish what they want to do (makes the DCV rotation every 2 years instead of every year), but idk.

Anyway, thanks for my rant. This has honestly been helpful even if no one responds - it will help when I discuss with them and the DVC Guide.

 

[DaveNan]

Availability, independent of resort is a complicated question. It get down to season (time of year/points charts), weekend vs weekday, and size of villa. In general, the beach resorts are busier during the Summer (least availability) whereas at WDW the Summer is not the time with limited (worst) availability, Oct-early Jan is. Additionally, at WDW - studios have the worst availability. Don't count on a studio at RIV at 7 months unless you own there, maybe preferred view from Feb-Sept (excluding holiday weeks). Best bet is 1 BR bet other times and again - preferred view. For Aulani - with the exception of Jun-August all types (except for hotel room) usually have Ocean view available. For the lower point cost categories it is usually limited. For Vero - studio/hotel has the best availability (almost year round). For HHI - again - Summer is worst, but 2 BR will have the best availability. Several things drive availability - demand, point cost, and number of units available. At Aulani - there are more OV than any other category and the point cost is high - so it has the best availability. At VB, there are many more studio/hotel rooms than 1BR and 2BR. And at HHI, there are lots of 2BR. So it depends on when they want to go and what type of room they want. If they are going to the beach resorts not from June-August, I would recommend buying at RIV. If they want to go to the beach resorts during peak season, it is hard to own at a single resort and be able to do that. Additionally, the cost of annual MF at the beach resorts offsets the buy in cost at RIV to some extent.

 

[pianomanzano]

The resale restrictions won't matter if they pass it down to you. It'll only matter for the next buyer, should you or your parents decide to sell.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

RIV is best deal. Non wdw properties are not always easy to get into if you don’t own. Gets worse every year. RIV studios are impossible to get if you don’t own there.

 

[DisneyRegulars]

This seems like an awfully big investment for a place you don’t want to be every year. If the goal is to take family vacations every year, that can easily be accomplished in far more economical ways.

It seems your parents have fallen in love with the idea of vacationing with you each year. If that’s what’s making their eyes shine, figure out how to do that without the $40,000 price tag plus yearly dues.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

This seems like an awfully big investment for a place you don’t want to be every year. If the goal is to take family vacations every year, that can easily be accomplished in far more economical ways.

It seems your parents have fallen in love with the idea of vacationing with you each year. If that’s what’s making their eyes shine, figure out how to do that without the $40,000 price tag plus yearly dues.

Wow, this is a great post. When you go to the Disney timeshare spiel, it is all about family and how you will be closer to your family if you buy dvc. It’s quite manipulative actually. My husband has seen it a few times with me and rolls his eyes every time. But I can tell you, even though it doesn’t work on my cold husband, it is very, very effective. There is an element of guilt woven in too. If your young children are with you, it is awful. Disneyregulars is right. Dvc is only a good deal if you go to Disney every year already. And even then, it is resale that is the good deal. The dues are also quite expensive and will be skyrocketing with inflation I have no doubt. I would do resale if at all. We bought some RIV direct and even though we are diehard Disney people we regret not just buying another resale contract. We have several resale contracts. You cannot just walk away from direct contracts—- especially RIV contracts with the resale restrictions. When you sell direct contracts, you usually lose money, unless you have held them for a long time. You definitely lose money with a RIV contract. When you sell resale, there is usually no loss and generally a gain. Also if your spouse is not a Disney person, dvc can become a point of contention. Remember also that the room is only part of the cost of a Disney vacation.

 

[SleeplessInTO]

Does your wife want to vacation at a Disney property with your parents every year? Will she want to vacation at a Disney property with your parents every year once you have kids?

Seems like a very long term commitment to spend time together every year (or 2, or 3, if you bank and borrow) with a side helping of “but we bought this expensive timeshare for you!”

Your parents are dreaming of big extended family trips. Is your family onboard with that?

 

[MICKIMINI]

I just see *danger* written all over your post.

As a long time DVC owner of 26+ years, it has taken us from a family of three (son 8 yo) to a family of four (son & DIL mid 30's) and will take them through until 2057. We put them on a direct OKWE deed so we all have AP's and the ability to use II, discounts etc and I must say we do all the above. DVC for us is perfect and we use it and share it and will eventually gift it.

There is a tremendous amount of planning and coordination with our son and DIL who live in TX (we're in NH) around their professional careers and other travel. We have to book out 11-7 months out and we book a 1 BR and a studio for them. Then there is the car rental, ADR's etc. I haven't even gotten to the cost!

Annual MF's are about $4500 for DVC (500+ points) and about $1200 for WBC. This year we are spending 5 weeks around WDW, one week at Marriott we paid cash for through DVC (Interval International). Over 6K for accommodations, but that is about 30+ nights in a 1 or 2 BR and 15 nights in a studio. I think that is north of 30K at rack rate? AP's renewals for 4 is about 3.2K. Then you have flights (we fly SWA free), dining (yikes), rental car (yikes) and you are deep into $$$$. Even if you are only spending two weeks a year, please do the calculations as it can be a real eye opener.

The point being, it is not just the initial cost and annual dues. It can be a tremendous savings IF you have the time and resources to make it work. It takes a commitment to manage and use those points and be willing to put the time in to coordinate your family (or even yourself) and pay for all the other necessary expenses. Plans change and flexibility is key, yet DVC has strict rules that may pose an issue.

Long winded reply, however this approach could be a huge mistake for your folks. If as a family, you want to visit different resorts, it would be a good use of your time to read through threads here on disboards to get various takes on how families manage DVC, choose resorts and UY's, evaluate points needed, decide between direct and resale and how they utilize points.

Do your homework and good luck with your decision!

 

[Brian Noble]

Your parents (and you!) are not alone. They were on vacation, having the time of their lives, and a helpful timeshare salesperson explained how they could bottle this magical feeling forever "at today's prices." It's an investment in themselves, and their family--not a financial investment, but a commitment of time and resources to vacation.

And, that sales agent is right. Timeshares are great. They are "use-it-or-lose-it" and that makes planning vacations a priority that is important rather than something you fit in around the other things in your life if you have time. It doesn't really save us any money, but that's because we are taking more vacations than we would if left to our own devices.

In 2021 I spent a week in Northern Michigan in late spring, a week in Park City Utah in early summer, and three weeks in the Hawaiian islands in oceanfront resorts. 2022 was a February week on the Palm Beach coast in Florida, two weeks in March at WDW (at SSR) with extended family, and a week and a half in Boston/Northern Vermont this summer. In '23 I have a week in Puerto Vallarta, a week in Orlando (at one the Marriotts for Universal), a week on the Southern California coast, a long weekend for one of the runDisney races, and two weeks in the Hawaiian islands.

I would never do half of these if I did not own timeshares.

one of the things that I (and they) find most intriguing is the non-WDW properties.

IMO, the only reason to own DVC is to stay at the theme park resorts--and, specifically, the WDW resorts. (You can make a case for Disneyland, but location is less of an issue there.) That's because the non-park resorts are (a) more expensive than the competition to buy and to own and (b) in less desirable locations than the competition. Vero is a bit too far north to really snowbird. HHI is on the wrong side of the loop road on the island. Aulani is on my least favorite of the "big four" Hawaiian islands. All three of them are lovely resorts, mind you. But you are paying the Disney premium to stay there while there are others that are less expensive and in much better locations.

It sounds like the idea of timeshare might be a good fit for you and your parents, but maybe Disney is not the (only) one you should think about buying. I think your idea of a small ownership for an every-other-year WDW visit makes sense, but maybe augment that with some other timeshare system that gives you good access to other places at a better price point.

There are lots of candidates for that "other" system. If you are interested in this, I'd recommend going over to TUG (tugbbs.com) the Timeshare User's Group, where there is tons of expertise in all of the possible options. You will want to spend a good while learning about these other options---timeshares are easy to buy, but they can be hard to sell.

 

[RoseGold]

I know this isn't the answer you want, but it's time for an adult estate planning discussion. Tell them you don't want this inheritance. They are making it something it is not to you. On the flipside, if it is going to get passed down, it needs to be in the structure of the estate. You don't want to hire a lawyer to probate this in Florida. It's OK to say that out loud. And, while we are talking about passing things down, I think it's an opening to talk about the other things families struggle with, all the decisions about end of life and burial and all of that. Because you are going to be the one trying to figure out how to divest real estate in Florida and close an estate thousands of miles away, with little kids in school and work is a mess.

I think it's OK for them to buy into a Disney fantasy and buy whatever they want. But they shouldn't be buying it for you, which sounds like a risk. Tell them. You want to go to Disney maybe every three years, and you're happy buying your own room at Swolphin. You guys should buy whatever you want. Go for it! But we can't commit to that. You know WE (not just my wife) really aren't that into Disney. If their plan is really about a vacation with you, not Disney, we need to talk about renting a beach place or something. Because Disney every year won't work for US. Offer the compromise. A GIANT trip with rented points when theoretical, future kid is just under 3 (and free). You'll all go together it will be great. Pencil it in, you can plan everything.

It sounds like the right outcome might be 150 points at RIV/Poly2, actually. But you need to do it correctly with legal advice, mom. I don't want to have to hire a FL lawyer for this.

They can spend 150 points without you, they'll love it. If you get saddled with this later, you can sell it or rent it out. So, even if they make a "bad" decision, you can undo it. No worries. They can get burned no question, especially buying direct, but this isn't as scammy as TIMESHARE first sounds. And it's their money, they should enjoy it.

But yea, I'd tell your parents they need to talk to their local estate lawyer about the very real implications for you before they start buying real estate in Florida.

 

[RoseGold]

The resale restrictions won't matter if they pass it down to you. It'll only matter for the next buyer, should you or your parents decide to sell.

Maybe. Historically, they have been grandfathered in, with inheritance or gratuitous transfer That doesn't mean they will be in the future. I think there's a better argument for the points themselves than the Blue Card benefits.

I'd actually love to hear how a Guide answers this question, when directly asked.

 

[havoc315]

Hello All (sorry for the book below)

My parents (Retired and soon-to-be) fell in love with Riviera on a recent stay and got very hooked by a lovely salesperson (DVC Guide?). I happened to be joining them on the trip the day after they went on their tour and there was a true glimmer in their eyes that I had not seen in a long time, including tears in my mother's eyes when talking about making this investment as something that could be passed down to my kids (I'm an only child)((I also don't have any kids yet)). There is one problem with this - they are, self-admittedly, not "Disney People." They certainly enjoy going, love the restaurants and resorts, but they definitely don't visit the parks enough where I think that membership is a no-brainer. They've also only ever stayed at Wilderness Lodge and now Boardwalk, and have toured Riviera. The other wrinkle to this is that my wife is definitely not a "Disney Person." She will go and have fun, but I don't think a yearly trip is going to be in the cards for us. While I wouldn't consider myself a "Disney Person" ... it certainly scratches an itch. I don't think I can in good conscious say that I wouldn't enjoy myself considering I just flew down for two days of park hopping, Savi's workshop, Rise twice, Guardians once, 4 Genie + reservations stacked in line with park hopping times, walking back to Boardwalk in the rain (twice) after the boats shutdown, riding the Skyliner for fun, etc. I can lean-in to just about anything.

All that being said, I saw how excited my parents were and, as the person who will inevitably be tasked with running the reservations etc. if they actually DO become members, I set about reading threads here and articles elsewhere about the process, the Riviera Resale Restriction (something my parents never mentioned when I was with them), etc. Their idea as members would be 200 points a year so that we (all four of us) could spend a week together in two studios (or some combination) at Riviera, and eventually take our kids with us.

Given everything above, one of the things that I (and they) find most intriguing is the non-WDW properties. While I do not see us going to WDW every year, I can certainly see a 4-year rotation of WDW, Aluani, Vero Beach, and Hilton Head making sense. The Hilton Head property is, in particular, interesting to me as my wife and I recently moved to North Carolina, and would be able to drive to the property for weekend getaways.

With all that being said, a smattering of questions:

First and foremost, what is availability of the 3 non-WDW properties like at the 7 month mark? Will we be effectively locked out of (or severely limited at) these properties since we will only have a 7-month window?

Should I just try and convince my parents to buy resale at either HHI or Vero (thereby preventing them from ever booking Riviera through DVC for which my mom will kill me)?

Maybe with the Riviera resale restrictions I should push them to a different WDW resort?

I know from reading threads that using DVC points for non-Disney properties (using II or anything else) is usually a financial waste, is that people's experience? If they didn't want to go to WDW one year how easily are rentals accomplished to get some cash back?

Honestly, any and all opinions or commentary regarding the above is appreciated. I read a post in an unrelated thread that suggested 100 points a year to someone, which really clicked in my brain as a great idea to accomplish what they want to do (makes the DCV rotation every 2 years instead of every year), but idk.

Anyway, thanks for my rant. This has honestly been helpful even if no one responds - it will help when I discuss with them and the DVC Guide.

1... As long as you're buying direct, don't worry about the resale restrictions at Riviera. If it's everyone's favorite resort, it's the one to buy.. Come 2042, re-sale points probably won't be valid at Hilton Head or Vero Beach either. So you're best bet is direct..
2... Vero Beach typically has good availability at 7 months. Aulani has decent availability most of the year as long as you're willing to upgrade to a higher category -- Don't count on getting a standard studio. But a ocean view studio, a 1 bedroom, typically can get. Hilton Head is difficult at 7 months for summer weekday bookings. Very easy for weekends outside of summer.
3.--- DVC is a bad value when used outside of Disney. You will want to primarily use at the various DVC properties. Question is, are you and your family "Disney-enough" to truly want to go every 1-2 years. You don't have to go every year. But realistically, you'll need to be the type that goes every couple of years. Of course, that doesn't mean a week of theme park hopping for each trip. A 3-day weekend enjoying Food and Wine festival at Epcot. A few days of a "resort only" trip at Animal Kingdom Lodge. Aulani, Hilton Head, etc. And if kids are in your future, then Disney trips may become more popular for you for a good decade. So along with this decision, your family would need to look at their finances. If you tie up a lot of money in DVC, does that mean it destroys your non-Disney vacation budget for the next 20 years? Or, is it still, "we will take lots of other non-Disney trips, but buying DVC will throw in some extra Disney trips"

 

[Dotluvsdisney]

Wow! What a tight family you have . My son is a teenager and I recently bought a small contract resale. Has our Disney attendance changed over the years? Yes. Do I love staying at Disney resorts? YES. We are excited to take our son and my 3 bonus kids on trips where the cost of lodging has been prepaid. It is absolutely a hedge against inflation. And excited to not stay cramped in small rooms at hotels with no activities. I have stayed at a number of luxury hotel brands over the last 10 years and I count Disney among these. I have stayed at the Ritz, Hard Rock and Portofino Bay. I have also stayed at the BWV, AKL and Poly on cash or point rental. I love the Disney resorts! There is so much to do and see aside from going to the theme parks! My maintenance fees will be about $800/year. After paying resort fees, parking fees and taxes for my cash pay rooms, I am very much looking forward to concluding my stay with a $0 tab.

 

[NVDISFamily]

Maybe. Historically, they have been grandfathered in, with inheritance or gratuitous transfer That doesn't mean they will be in the future. I think there's a better argument for the points themselves than the Blue Card benefits.

I'd actually love to hear how a Guide answers this question, when directly asked.

My guide directly answered this. I can gift my Riviera contracts to the kids and they will be unrestricted and also grant direct member benefits as they are 150 points each (actually there are 4 of them so they will get two each if they want them). Not too worried about this now, they are both very young. I've seen some other topics/threads about gifting deeds to family and this aligned so I didn't question it. Do you have any concerns that I need to research?


Some questions/thoughts for the original poster:

Is this purchase "trivial" or close to trivial for your parents and/or family? If they are well off and spending this money won't hurt all that much, then something to consider.

One of the "perks" of DVC is it's flexible points based system. You can go more often or less often in nicer rooms/longer stay. Could a compromise be to go every other year for an awesome trip?

I'd recommend they/you research why this is a BAD thing to get into, and after doing your due diligence, if your pro column outweighs the cons, then you might want to buy some DVC.....


As a side note, I very reluctantly fell in love with and bought Riviera. We flew down to tour before our purchase of some VGF points (that was the plan). Decided to tour a few resorts, and the family fell in love with it. As this is just a "fun" luxury expense, I would rather get what we like and not what will yield the best return on the resale market 20 years from now.

Good luck to you on whatever you decide.

Edit - forgot to respond on the non WDW parks. Not sure if you are talking about Cali? VGC (Grand Cal) is really tough to get into at 7 months. We will learn about Disneyland tower (VDH) after it opens but most bet it will be a gamble. Aulani seems to be okay at 7 months if you don't mind spending a lot of points on Ocean View rooms.

 

[RichVIII]

One other thing to consider is you can always sell this down the road, many times for a profit. Few, if any time shares hold their value like DVC. It was the only reason my wife would even consider it, we had an exit plan. Now we could sell for a profit but have only added on contracts and wish we had done more when prices were lower. So if you parents and you all use it for 10 years and sell, you will probably still (potentially break even) or make some money and made memories. You could also rent out the points in the off years. 200 points will not go far and can easily be spent by going every two years. Three years gets risky if you have to cancel. I wouldn’t think of this as restrictive as it may sound. We have stayed at many of the non-WDW resorts and loved Aulani the most. We wanted to hate it and suddenly we have another trip booked chewing up 200+ points on a few nights 1BR Ocean View. If your parents don’t see this is a financial burden and you can see value in the future, I would let them.

 

[RoseGold]

also grant direct member benefits as they are 150 points each (actually there are 4 of them so they will get two each if they want them

I mean that's explicitly NOT in the Riviera paperwork I saw. The earlier stuff is more vague, I would argue.

I have no doubt guides promise this, as it is the current policy. But I can't find actual obligation anywhere. Just more reason to buy as an LLC/trust.

 

[Sandisw]

My guide directly answered this. I can gift my Riviera contracts to the kids and they will be unrestricted and also grant direct member benefits as they are 150 points each (actually there are 4 of them so they will get two each if they want them). Not too worried about this now, they are both very young. I've seen some other topics/threads about gifting deeds to family and this aligned so I didn't question it. Do you have any concerns that I need to research?


Some questions/thoughts for the original poster:

Is this purchase "trivial" or close to trivial for your parents and/or family? If they are well off and spending this money won't hurt all that much, then something to consider.

One of the "perks" of DVC is it's flexible points based system. You can go more often or less often in nicer rooms/longer stay. Could a compromise be to go every other year for an awesome trip?

I'd recommend they/you research why this is a BAD thing to get into, and after doing your due diligence, if your pro column outweighs the cons, then you might want to buy some DVC.....


As a side note, I very reluctantly fell in love with and bought Riviera. We flew down to tour before our purchase of some VGF points (that was the plan). Decided to tour a few resorts, and the family fell in love with it. As this is just a "fun" luxury expense, I would rather get what we like and not what will yield the best return on the resale market 20 years from now.

Good luck to you on whatever you decide.

Edit - forgot to respond on the non WDW parks. Not sure if you are talking about Cali? VGC (Grand Cal) is really tough to get into at 7 months. We will learn about Disneyland tower (VDH) after it opens but most bet it will be a gamble. Aulani seems to be okay at 7 months if you don't mind spending a lot of points on Ocean View rooms.

The best way to do it is to add them to the contracts while you remain owners too..this way they are guaranteed the benefits because they can’t take them away from you as long as you remain the owner.

Then later on, even if it’s a short time, you remove yourself from those contrasts..assuming that there is a concern benefits won’t transfer.

In the end, though, membership extras are not guaranteed so they can change that program for all of us.

 

[RoseGold]

Another thought. You threw out casually that you will be making the actual reservations. Running these reservations can be a LOT of time and effort. Tell them you don't have time to do it. Most people don't.

This is a system with incredibly complicated, strict rules and requires a lot of advance planning. It isn't for everyone. Tell them, these rules are a nightmare. You don't understand all this -- use year and banking and holding. If they want to do it, fine, but this is too much for you.

 

[limace]

They love the resort and the idea of vacationing together but most of you aren’t Disney fans? Don’t buy DVC. Seriously. The only reason it’s worth the premium price over other time shares is the price. You can get really lovely timeshares at resorts that will cost you much, much less to purchase and own and will involve much cheaper trips. Go spend some time on the TUG boards and research, research.

For instance, we just bought a week at a resort fairly close to us. It’s a location we love, easy to go every year, and the units are recently refurbished and gorgeous. My SIL and family had the unit next to ours. We purchased for free, seller paid this year’s MF, and it’ll cost us about $800 a year after this for a week in a two bedroom.

So, if what the grandparents want is that experience-staying in a lovely place every year, family dinners and activities, kids running back and forth-but they don’t like the parks-consider something like this. We love the parks so will still do Disney too, but this was a lovely vacation and my husband keeps talking about how much more relaxing it was than our other trips.

Easy to rent weeks in some timeshares to find what you like-or even do that as an annual thing so you don’t take on the obligation. We love our VGC and AKV stays but taking away the location, there are many many places with much nicer units and amenities than you’ll find at DVC. (Heck, hotels like the Delano and the Cosmopolitan in Vegas have a very similar vibe to RIV imho).

 

[Sandisw]

While going the other places is certainly an option, subject to availability, I am not sure it makes sense if you don’t see yourself visiting at least every other year.

Now, I have done trips that didn’t involve the parks,,,resort stay with pool time, dining, spa, etc.

We have also done trips that were simply for the festivals at Epcot.

If any of those type of trips are things you and your wife could see yourself doing? Then it might be a nice investment

But, no matter what, IMO, you should be sure your parents know upfront how you see yourself using the membership with them.

Of course, if there is a year here and there that you don’t use it, renting out reservations is a choice which then can be used to go other places.

We own RIV both resale and direct, and aren’t bothered by the restrictions because we bought for our enjoyment. If and when we sell, whatever we get back is a bonus.

Plus, my adult kids are owners of some of our contracts so it’s more likely they would the ones selling down the road anyway.