Philando Castile shooting - full dashcam video released

[Wendy31]

Were this man's hands out/up in plain sight?

He told the officer he had a gun (&, I think, a permit for the gun).

The officer had asked for his license.

According to reports, he was reaching for his license as instructed.

But, I think, he told the officer he had a gun after he was instructed to get his license. And then the officer told him to not to reach for it - the gun? the license?

But I don't think his hands were in plain sight.

Probably, Castile should have stopped & put his hands on the steering wheel. But the officer seemed a bit... crazed & was shouting at Castile. So I could see how Castile was confused as to exactly what the officer wanted.

I don't think the officer ever saw a gun, but reacted (over-reacted) to Castile reaching for his license.

I'm not blaming Castile, but any kind of concealed carry permit/gun safety class (& books) tell you that, once you inform the police you have a gun, you sit (or stand) w/ your hands in plain sight until further instructions are given.

Again, w/ the child in the backseat, I'm not sure what the officer was worried about. In my mind, even if the officer was afraid he was going to get shot, the "scene" wasn't right for Castile to start shooting.

 

[4Hawks]

I can say with probably 98% certainty that if Castile had not been reaching for anything and his hand were in view of the officer he would not have been shot. Maybe he was only reaching for his wallet. The officer couldn't know that at the time. That Castile said he was not pulling out the gun doesn't mean that he actually wasn't.

I can say with 99% certainty that if Castile had been white, he would not have been shot

 

[cabanafrau]

Those instructions were given before he announced he had a gun on him. Once he announced he had a gun, the situation was entirely different.

I'll agree that the police officer should have given clear instructions at that point for Mr. Castile to put his hands in plain view.

However, anyone who goes through taking the course to have a permit to carry a weapon, should also know to put their hands in plain view and make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that they are not getting their gun out once they announce that they have one.

I've taken the course in Texas (where we LOVE our guns) and it was drilled into my head how you should handle yourself when interacting with law enforcement.

So we're unquestionably clear on the fact that Mr. Castille didn't follow his CCW training and bears responsibility for his execution as penalty. Yet an on duty, trained professional neglected to issue a key command that would have avoided the use of deadly force and that should automatically get a pass?

Perhaps the officer didn't have time to issue the command? I believe he had the same amount of time Mr. Castille did to employ logic and place his hands on the wheel. I believe one of those people was trained in executing a traffic stop. I can tell you with certainty that training involves extensive discussion and demonstration regarding subjects who are known to be or suspected to be armed.

If you're going to hold that measurement up to Mr. Castille, fairness and justice requires it be held up to the officer as well.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Good points.

I don't think anybody is saying that a man should be 'executed' as a penalty for not exactly following training/protocol.
I certainly am not!!!!

This is a very very tragic incident!!!!!

Is it not true that the police officer also probably did not follow training and protocol?
Should he be held guilty of 'murder'.... Should he be executed... (what do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now....)

I suppose that my questioning of Castille's actions is somewhat affected by the thought that I am not sure that there are many, if any, African American men who are not well aware of the well known and constantly repeated phrase, "hands up, don't shoot".

Didn't his friends and family publicly state that they were worried about carrying, even with the permit, and had discussed how it should be handled... more than once?

This is all just so sad and tragic....
there are clear prejudices and agendas on BOTH sides.

 

[cabanafrau]

Good points.

I don't think anybody is saying that a man should be 'executed' as a penalty for not exactly following training/protocol.
I certainly am not!!!!

This is a very very tragic incident!!!!!

Is it not true that the police officer also probably did not follow training and protocol?
Should he be held guilty of 'murder'.... Should he be executed... (what do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now....)

I suppose that my questioning of Castille's actions is somewhat affected by the thought that I am not sure that there are many, if any, African American men who are not well aware of the well known and constantly repeated phrase, "hands up, don't shoot".

Didn't his friends and family publicly state that they were worried about carrying, even with the permit, and had discussed how it should be handled... more than once?

This is all just so sad and tragic....
there are clear prejudices and agendas on BOTH sides.

???? A civilized society needs good policing, by a force we enTRUST to see to everyone's wellbeing and safety. We need a well-trained and thoughtful police presence.

We do not need dead police. We do not need more dead citizens. We do not need to live in the land of an eye for an eye -- eventually everyone winds up blind in that scenario.

I consider this officer culpable in Mr. Castille's death. I'm not honestly sure what I feel the discipline or punishment should have been. I do know this man should never be entrusted to be a sworn officer of the law again.

I'm appalled anyone would question Mr. Castille's "actions" because "African American men are aware of a constantly repeated phrase". The man complied with a traffic stop (which he was subjected to because an officer mistakenly thought he might be a robbery suspect BTW) and announced to the responding officer that he was legally carrying a firearm.

I question again the actions of a trained professional who employed deadly force rather than follow protocol and require the suspect place both hands on the steering wheel. That is not what I find acceptable among those I voluntarily authorize to use weapons while fulfilling the duties of protecting and serving me, those I love and my fellow citizens.

 

[DizBelle]

So we're unquestionably clear on the fact that Mr. Castille didn't follow his CCW training and bears responsibility for his execution as penalty. Yet an on duty, trained professional neglected to issue a key command that would have avoided the use of deadly force and that should automatically get a pass?

Perhaps the officer didn't have time to issue the command? I believe he had the same amount of time Mr. Castille did to employ logic and place his hands on the wheel. I believe one of those people was trained in executing a traffic stop. I can tell you with certainty that training involves extensive discussion and demonstration regarding subjects who are known to be or suspected to be armed.

If you're going to hold that measurement up to Mr. Castille, fairness and justice requires it be held up to the officer as well.

Mr. Castile alone could have behaved differently and most likely not gotten shot. If his hands had been in plain view once he announced he had a gun, I don't think the police officer would have shot. His continuing to reach for something is what prompted Yanez to draw his weapon and shoot.

Yanez could have also behaved differently to yield a different result. Once Mr. Castile said he had a gun, Yanez should have given clear instructions on what he wanted Mr. Castile to do.

So, both men bear some responsibility for what happened. I do think the greater weight of responsibility is on the police officer, though. Mr. Castile, however, is not blameless. He would be blameless if Yanez had gotten out of his police car and immediately started firing into the car.

To adapt what they say in Spiderman, with carrying a weapon comes great responsibility. That goes for both police and civilians.

I got my CHL several years ago but never carried. There are a LOT of things to think about when you carry a gun. It just wasn't something I wanted to do.

 

[Wishing on a star]

We are closer together than you might think!!!!!

I do not think that this officer will ever wear a uniform again.
I have even stated that I am not really absolving this officer.

I am just, maybe, seeing both sides of this tragic incident.

I will go ahead and offer a bit more about my angle/thoughts....
My husband has had family in Law Enforcement.
He has a cousin who was injured and disabled enough during an altercation to be on light office duty to finish out his career.
His uncle witnessed his close partner ambushed and shot dead.

My husband does have a concealed carry permit.
I have written here before, his handgun is like the old VISA commercials... 'never leave home without it'.

We have been pulled over a couple of times in the past.... Both times while traveling on a road-trip, simply exceeding the speed limit. Let off with a warning...
Anyhow, both times, he made no mention that there was a gun in the vehicle... He made no mention that he had a permit.... Just interacted very politely with the officer... Probably had his license in hand at the window before the officer ever approached... In fact, I am pretty sure that is the case.
(I am wondering if when an officer runs the tag number, if it would indicate that the person the car is registered to, possibly the driver, does have a CCP????)

In no way, EVER, would he have stated 'I have a gun..." while reaching for something.
Just wouldn't.
I just can't get past that.
He wouldn't be counting on the color of his skin to save him if he did anything to make the officer feal that there were some threat.

 

[Hikergirl]

Mr. Castile alone could have behaved differently and most likely not gotten shot. If his hands had been in plain view once he announced he had a gun, I don't think the police officer would have shot. His continuing to reach for something is what prompted Yanez to draw his weapon and shoot.

Yanez could have also behaved differently to yield a different result. Once Mr. Castile said he had a gun, Yanez should have given clear instructions on what he wanted Mr. Castile to do.

So, both men bear some responsibility for what happened. I do think the greater weight of responsibility is on the police officer, though. Mr. Castile, however, is not blameless. He would be blameless if Yanez had gotten out of his police car and immediately started firing into the car.

To adapt what they say in Spiderman, with carrying a weapon comes great responsibility. That goes for both police and civilians.

I got my CHL several years ago but never carried. There are a LOT of things to think about when you carry a gun. It just wasn't something I wanted to do.

Somehow I think that if you were pulled over and forgot to put your hands on the wheel and instead kept reaching for your wallet out of your purse and a police officer shot you and you survived, that you wouldn't be thinking Oh well, I blame me, no harm no foul.
There are plenty of would have, should have, could haves on both parties for sure, but the only one responsible for the death of Mr. Castile was Yanez.

 

[Magpie]

Mr. Castile alone could have behaved differently and most likely not gotten shot. If his hands had been in plain view once he announced he had a gun, I don't think the police officer would have shot. His continuing to reach for something is what prompted Yanez to draw his weapon and shoot.

Yanez could have also behaved differently to yield a different result. Once Mr. Castile said he had a gun, Yanez should have given clear instructions on what he wanted Mr. Castile to do.

So, both men bear some responsibility for what happened. I do think the greater weight of responsibility is on the police officer, though. Mr. Castile, however, is not blameless. He would be blameless if Yanez had gotten out of his police car and immediately started firing into the car.

To adapt what they say in Spiderman, with carrying a weapon comes great responsibility. That goes for both police and civilians.

I got my CHL several years ago but never carried. There are a LOT of things to think about when you carry a gun. It just wasn't something I wanted to do.

Except, as a professional with a responsibility to protect, I hold the police officer to a much higher standard than Castile. Civilians are not supposed to have to cater to the delicate nerves of highly-strung, lethally armed, police officers. It's supposed to be the officer's job to have a cool head, nerves of steel, and be able to de-escalate and control a situation.

There was a little girl in the back seat. There was a woman beside Castile.

That officer approached the car already in a state of heightened anxiety, imagining that he was about to take down a desperado. The sight of a black man with a woman and a child did nothing to suggest to him that perhaps these were just ordinary civilians going about their lives. When Castile moved, the officers anxiety tipped over into outright panic as he imagined that Castile was about to gun him down. So, without a single thought to the safety of anyone other than himself, he fired into the car, putting the lives of both the woman and child at risk. Any of his bullets could have gone through his victim and into either of the other two passengers.

Not only should this man have never become an officer, he shouldn't have had a gun license. This is not someone who can be trusted with lethal force. He doesn't have the temperament for it. Odds are, he never did.

This reminds me of those arguments people get into about the drunken, scantily clad woman who sashayed into a dark alley behind the bar at 3am. Does she bear any responsibility for her rape? Her actions and her choices made her vulnerable, yes, but ultimately guilt lies ONLY with the man who chose to rape her.

Castile, the civilian, tried to reach for his license. The officer, a "professional", panicked and killed a man. Only one of these men is a murderer, and it's not Castile.

 

[DizBelle]

Somehow I think that if you were pulled over and forgot to put your hands on the wheel and instead kept reaching for your wallet out of your purse and a police officer shot you and you survived, that you wouldn't be thinking Oh well, I blame me, no harm no foul.
There are plenty of would have, should have, could haves on both parties for sure, but the only one responsible for the death of Mr. Castile was Yanez.

If I chose to carry a weapon, I wouldn't forget. And if I think I would forget, I shouldn't carry my weapon.

There are LOTS of things you CANNOT forget when you are carrying a gun. Both of these men "forgot" some things that they should have done and the result was tragic.

If only one of them had not forgotten what they should do, the tragedy would most likely have been avoided.

 

[Wishing on a star]

WOW....
Backing away now....

 

[Hikergirl]

If I chose to carry a weapon, I wouldn't forget. And if I think I would forget, I shouldn't carry my weapon.

There are LOTS of things you CANNOT forget when you are carrying a gun. Both of these mean "forgot" some things that they should have done and the result was tragic.

How do you know Castile didn't think the same way, especially in this day and age? You know what they say, never say never.
And I do agree that they both forgot things, but like the pp said, the police officer is the one that is held to a higher standard here. He is there to protect and serve, not to forget and kill.

 

[amberpi]

I'm appalled anyone would question Mr. Castille's "actions" because "African American men are aware of a constantly repeated phrase". The man complied with a traffic stop (which he was subjected to because an officer mistakenly thought he might be a robbery suspect BTW) and announced to the responding officer that he was legally carrying a firearm.

This is the part that breaks my heart, for Mr. Castille and the nation. I've personally seen this irl and it's shocking and sad.

 

[DizBelle]

How do you know Castile didn't think the same way, especially in this day and age? You know what they say, never say never.
And I do agree that they both forgot things, but like the pp said, the police officer is the one that is held to a higher standard here. He is there to protect and serve, not to forget and kill.

I don't know what Mr. Castile was thinking.

I agree with your second statement and said as much in a prior post.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think sometimes we get too hung up on the blame game here.

Was Castile doing anything wrong? No
Did he deserve this? No
Is he even a little bit "at fault"? No
Could he have done something different that would have changed the outcome? Maybe, maybe not

 

[Wendy31]

I'll be honest. Had the car (that the officer pulled over because he thought it was the car from another crime) been full of "thugs" (for lack of a better term), when Castile reached for his wallet, I'd have more sympathy for the officer.

And that may be racially profiling, but I understand that police have seen a lot & have learned to be wary & cautious.

Again, at the end of his/her shift, the officer wants to go home, & his/her family wants him to come home. If I'm the wife of an officer, I *want* my husband to err on the side of protecting himself.

However, there was a child in the backseat. The car's occupants consisted of a lone black man, a woman, & a child, & the man told the officer he had a gun.

If the officer can't quickly & logically assess the situation & doesn't possess the skills (& nerve) necessary to de-escalate the situation & remain calm & collected, then he shouldn't be a policeman.

I don't know what kind of training the officer had prior to this incident. I don't know how long he'd been an officer. I've seen some statistics that say many police officers can go their whole careers w/o ever having to shoot their firearms.

So maybe this incident was the first time this particular officer was in the kind of situation where he had to quickly assess the situation & determine whether or not lethal force was necessary - all within seconds of time.

But learning you're not cut out to be a police officer at the expense of someone else's life doesn't really seem right to me.

And I know that, when these type cases occur, many people tend to automatically support & defend the policeman due to varying factors. (I've argued about this case w/ my husband.) Most of our police are really good & serve our communities well, & I hate how some treat the police w/ such blatant disrespect & even cruelty. I appreciate our police officers & respect the very hard jobs they do. However, I also realize that a few police are bad and/or not cut out for the job. And I don't think it diminishes our police force when we acknowledge that, sometimes, police officers make mistakes. Tragically, this officer's mistake cost another man his life.

 

[rickybobby]

I can say with 99% certainty that if Castile had been white, he would not have been shot

I can say with 100% certainty that you are stating an opinion with nothing to back it up with.

 

[4Hawks]

I can say with 100% certainty that you are stating an opinion with nothing to back it up with.

Of course, but so did the OP.

 

[Colleen27]

If I chose to carry a weapon, I wouldn't forget. And if I think I would forget, I shouldn't carry my weapon.

There are LOTS of things you CANNOT forget when you are carrying a gun. Both of these mean "forgot" some things that they should have done and the result was tragic.

If only one of them had not forgotten what they should do, the tragedy would most likely have been avoided.

And yet, people do forget all the time. Forgetting is human nature, especially when it comes to something we learned quickly and had little need to apply. A one-day CCW class, how long ago? I'll bet plenty of gun owners have forgotten at least some of the safety lessons taught.

I don't understand how it has become somehow controversial to expect more of a trained professional than of a civilian who may or may not have had one day of training in a course that may or may not have been well taught.

 

[mnrose]

???? A civilized society needs good policing, by a force we enTRUST to see to everyone's wellbeing and safety. We need a well-trained and thoughtful police presence.

We do not need dead police. We do not need more dead citizens. We do not need to live in the land of an eye for an eye -- eventually everyone winds up blind in that scenario.

I consider this officer culpable in Mr. Castille's death. I'm not honestly sure what I feel the discipline or punishment should have been. I do know this man should never be entrusted to be a sworn officer of the law again.

I'm appalled anyone would question Mr. Castille's "actions" because "African American men are aware of a constantly repeated phrase". The man complied with a traffic stop (which he was subjected to because an officer mistakenly thought he might be a robbery suspect BTW) and announced to the responding officer that he was legally carrying a firearm.

I question again the actions of a trained professional who employed deadly force rather than follow protocol and require the suspect place both hands on the steering wheel. That is not what I find acceptable among those I voluntarily authorize to use weapons while fulfilling the duties of protecting and serving me, those I love and my fellow citizens.

I will also emphasize once again that the other officer on the scene, standing on the passenger side of the car and looking in during the ENTIRE encounter, didn't even put a hand on his weapon. That to me is evidence that Mr. Yanez' "fear" was not reasonable. And, the amount of force used was excessive. End of story.