New CS Seating Policy & The GAC

[ireland_nicole]

Definition of discrimination: treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.

Disney is not doing anything against you. You can still do exactly what you've always done. There are other places you can eat where they don't have this policy and even at those places that do, it's only at certain times. You are also allowed to bring in your own food. Nobody is preventing you from eating. All that's happening is that you can't do what you current do if you CHOOSE to eat at the busiest times during the busiest times of the year. It is NOT discrimination to implement a policy that makes it more difficult (but not impossible) for a family to use a certain facility at a specific time when there are other facilities available at that time and the same facility is available at other times. There are still options for you at all times even if it's not the locations that you would prefer.

There are things that my family can not to at WDW because of our differences (I hate the term disabilities). Do I consider it discriminatory that WDW doesn't provide for every one of our special needs? No! I'm grateful that WDW does as much as they do to make our vacations even possible. I've walked away from many rides because even with our GAC the situation would not be good for my kids. I've missed out on many fireworks (I've only made it to 1; fantasmic and even then we had a total meltdown at the bus stop on the way out) and parades (I've only made it to 1 because so many people in such close proximity freaks out my daughter) because there is no accomodation for my kids. We have equal access to everything. Disney is not doing anything to prevent us from going. It's our own situation that makes us unable to do these things. Disney gives us just as much access as anybody else. The fact that my kids can't cope with some things does NOT mean that we're being discriminated against just because a company didn't bend over backwards even farther to make sure that we can partake.

You're worrying about a scenario that hasn't even happened (adding this to every CS location at all times) and playing the discrimination card when it doesn't apply. If you're truly worried about discrimination then make sure you understand exactly what discrimination is. It hurts cases of real discrimination when people throw that word around incorrectly.

currently up to one in 98 children is on the autism spectrum, add to that families of children with other developmental disabilities, add to that other families with multiple disability situations, and the solution offered to these families is to bring your own food. On so many levels, not equal access. I am most certainly not "throwing the discrimination word around incorrectly" although, as I am, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And you are correct, Disney is not expanding this policy today... but it is never safe to assume Disney will not expand a policy. It has been my experience that people who do not deal with disabilities on a daily basis don't really think about the impact on those with disabilities when a decision is made. While this policy is being piloted is the ideal time for us to make Disney aware of our concerns. It's easier to not care about a safety concern or accessibility issue until it concerns our family directly. However, I don't find it a responsible response. I believe that I have an obligation to educate when equal access is denied. That will be the case with this policy for many families who struggle already. There is a big difference between choosing whether a specific attraction is appropriate for your family and choosing between being able to eat in a park or not.

Just a reminder to play nice.
There are some pretty strong emotions connected with getting tables. I have been on both sides of this situation - having gotten food with a child with multiple challenges and a wheelchair and not been able to get a spot to sit and having gotten a table and sat waiting for food because that worked best for us.
I think we need more reports of how this will be managed. I know they were doing it as a test at some of the places we ate last spring at WDW because I read about people who encountered it while we were there. We ate at off peak times and never did run into any times they were doing it.
One thing we DID run into, which greatly impacts our ability to wait in the ordering lines, was that each restaurant does have some wheelchair accessible lines, but they are not well marked and we found then closed much more than open. If they only have a few lines open, one of them has to be the accessible line.
Also, most of the lines are set up to accommodate a line of people ordering, but only a small number of people picking up food. The times we saw larger families waiting in line to get their food, they were in the way of the next groups waiting. And, sometimes, the next group's food came first because it was a smaller or easier to complete order.

I completely agree, these are issues which need to be dealt with. Thank you for your insight and for sharing your experience.

You are not being discriminated against. You are not being catered to in the way that you want, but that's not discrimination.

If I go alone with my son, he can't go on Thunder Mountain, his FAVORITE ride. Because I can't take the dog and I certainly can't leave the dog. That's not discrimination, it's a point of fact. Dog can't go on roller coaster.

You want something to make it easier to manage with your children, totally understandable. You want to make things easier and more enjoyable for everyone, totally understandable. But this policy is not discriminating against you, nor would it be in any way a violation of the ADA (tables are for paying customers only. Until you've bought your food, you are not a paying customer). You are not being forbidden to enter the park or even eat, you are just being preventer from (as are we all) using facilities that are reserved for paying customers until you have become a paying customer. If they choose to allow you, given your unique circumstances, usage of the facility before that point, bully for you. But being given preferential seating, or use of reserved facilities for a non-customer (which, until you've purchased your food, you are) is not in any way required by the ADA.

It's similar to me saying that I plan on checking into a hotel tomorrow, but I am tired now, and because my child has a disablity they need to give me a room now. It's not the case in any way shape or form, and refusing my unreasonable demand is not discrimination.

No, it is not unreasonable to expect that my family or others like them will have the opportunity to eat. Unreasonable would be expecting them to change their menu to include my childs favorite food, unreasonable would be expecting them to clear a restaurant because of my childs increased anxiety in crowds... merely having the ability to use a facility is no where near the same thing.

 

[merryweather20]

You are not being discriminated against. You are not being catered to in the way that you want, but that's not discrimination.

If I go alone with my son, he can't go on Thunder Mountain, his FAVORITE ride. Because I can't take the dog and I certainly can't leave the dog. That's not discrimination, it's a point of fact. Dog can't go on roller coaster.

You want something to make it easier to manage with your children, totally understandable. You want to make things easier and more enjoyable for everyone, totally understandable. But this policy is not discriminating against you, nor would it be in any way a violation of the ADA (tables are for paying customers only. Until you've bought your food, you are not a paying customer). You are not being forbidden to enter the park or even eat, you are just being preventer from (as are we all) using facilities that are reserved for paying customers until you have become a paying customer. If they choose to allow you, given your unique circumstances, usage of the facility before that point, bully for you. But being given preferential seating, or use of reserved facilities for a non-customer (which, until you've purchased your food, you are) is not in any way required by the ADA.

It's similar to me saying that I plan on checking into a hotel tomorrow, but I am tired now, and because my child has a disablity they need to give me a room now. It's not the case in any way shape or form, and refusing my unreasonable demand is not discrimination.

That doesn't sound like the same thing at all to me. It seems more like the poster needs a room with X and needs to know when its available. If the hotel doesn't have such a room available then she can't make the trip at all.

I play this game all the time when I meet my best friend at the mall. We had to wait 20 minutes one time before we could get a table that I could get too/eat at. Once we find a workable table she then goes for our food.

If we got our table first our drinks would get spilled and our food would get cold as we tried to wind our way around the food court looking for a table I could use, and holding the trays at the same time.

The lines get hectic enough as is without all the extra family members there.

 

[Stellapedia]

But no one is preventing you from eating. No one told you your family was not welcome. You are just being told that until you have paid and therefore become an actual customer, you can't sit. You're being told you can't take up 20 minutes of sitting there doing nothing. If your children can navigate WDW, wait in line at rides, they can wait for the food. How is it possible they wait everywhere else but cannot possibly wait to sit until food is ready?

You're not being denied equal access, you're being denied (maybe, maybe not) preferential treatment. And the ADA does not state that they must make it possible for you to control your child's behavior, nor does it state that they must make every possible concession to every possible behavioral problem that might be experienced. If your children are being truly and unduly disruptive, they are within their rights to ask you to leave (just like they are allowed to ask me, or my dog, to leave if he is being out of control. The dog is protected by the ADA, or rather *I* am as the handler, but if his behavior it out of control they are allowed to make him leave). I'm not saying your kids are out of control or need to leave, but you're making it sound like that. If it's truly to that point, how on earth do you manage WDW at all? How do you do a single attraction or any ride? Why can you not handle mealtime waits the same way you would a line wait?

That doesn't sound like the same thing at all to me. It seems more like the poster needs a room with X and needs to know when its available. If the hotel doesn't have such a room available then she can't make the trip at all.

Ah, but it is the same. She wants them to give her a table before she has ordered, before she has the food. Thus- before she is a customer. She intends on becoming a customer, but she's not one right now. I intend on spending the night tomorrow night, but i am not checked in right now. So why wouldn't it be okay for me to take a room, without being a customer and without paying, but it would be okay for someone who is not a customer of a restaurant to sit at the tables? Even if they will be buying food, the 20 minutes her family spends there taking up space which is obviously at a premium, is 20 minutes that Disney cannot put a paying customer at that table.

 

[saveaquarter]

Ah, but it is the same. She wants them to give her a table before she has ordered, before she has the food. Thus- before she is a customer. She intends on becoming a customer, but she's not one right now. I intend on spending the night tomorrow night, but i am not checked in right now. So why wouldn't it be okay for me to take a room, without being a customer and without paying, but it would be okay for someone who is not a customer of a restaurant to sit at the tables? Even if they will be buying food, the 20 minutes her family spends there taking up space which is obviously at a premium, is 20 minutes that Disney cannot put a paying customer at that table.

For this analogy to work, you would have to compare it to asking to wait in the lobby for check in time when you arrive an hour or two early for your stay, which is perfectly acceptable at any hotel with a seating area.

Also, everyone has their own challenges, and it is very obvious when someone tries to analyze or make a suggestion for someone with a completely different set of challenges they have no experience with.

 

[ireland_nicole]

But no one is preventing you from eating. No one told you your family was not welcome. You are just being told that until you have paid and therefore become an actual customer, you can't sit. You're being told you can't take up 20 minutes of sitting there doing nothing. If your children can navigate WDW, wait in line at rides, they can wait for the food. How is it possible they wait everywhere else but cannot possibly wait to sit until food is ready?

You're not being denied equal access, you're being denied (maybe, maybe not) preferential treatment. And the ADA does not state that they must make it possible for you to control your child's behavior, nor does it state that they must make every possible concession to every possible behavioral problem that might be experienced. If your children are being truly and unduly disruptive, they are within their rights to ask you to leave (just like they are allowed to ask me, or my dog, to leave if he is being out of control. The dog is protected by the ADA, or rather *I* am as the handler, but if his behavior it out of control they are allowed to make him leave). I'm not saying your kids are out of control or need to leave, but you're making it sound like that. If it's truly to that point, how on earth do you manage WDW at all? How do you do a single attraction or any ride? Why can you not handle mealtime waits the same way you would a line wait?



Ah, but it is the same. She wants them to give her a table before she has ordered, before she has the food. Thus- before she is a customer. She intends on becoming a customer, but she's not one right now. I intend on spending the night tomorrow night, but i am not checked in right now. So why wouldn't it be okay for me to take a room, without being a customer and without paying, but it would be okay for someone who is not a customer of a restaurant to sit at the tables? Even if they will be buying food, the 20 minutes her family spends there taking up space which is obviously at a premium, is 20 minutes that Disney cannot put a paying customer at that table.

I am stunned at some of your comments
1. How do we "handle" WDW? With a level of planning heretofore seen only in that of a full scale military invasion. My itinerary is in less than 15 minute increments, we skip a lot, I mean a lot of things, we extensively use TGM, each child has a survival kit, etc. Honestly, unless you have been in our position, you have no idea. DD has to go to the bathroom on a strict schedule (timed voiding) I have to have that in the itinerary. She has seizures if she gets overheated (I have to plan minutes in the sun before A/C) the list goes on and on... there are factors outside of our control; a meltdown of some kind, a wait longer than usual because of the time it takes a chef to come out due to DD and DS's special diet needs. And we can often only be in the park for a few hours, sometimes less.

2. That might lead to the understandable, Why do you bother going then? My answer would be, primarily as therapy for my children. The first time my daughter said I love you was at disney. The first time my son spoke to a "stranger" was to say hi to Mickey. And because WDW is still magical to me, even with the intense planning required. Because I used to think that Disney was a place we were welcomed.

3. The problem is not merely the wait for the food, it's the fact that the queue lines are not designed to accomodate a large family with two ECV's and a double stroller. My husband and I do not split up at Disney-ever. Except for the bathroom, and then DH stays w/ DS and I stay w/ DD. There is no one adult for our two kids at WDW. When we do eat counter service as I already said, I sit w/ the kids in an area where I can safely contain them and DH gets the food- if there is no table, we don't eat there... but under the new plan, we have no way of knowing table availability.

4. I think my biggest concern/surprise in what was posted is the intimation that unruly or disruptive children should/could be asked to leave. Using that logic, perhaps we should just stay home- because then people around us wouldn't have to be exposed to our "unduly unruly" children. I would love for my blessings to be neurotypical and perfect and neat... but they're not. Hopefully someone still has some room and understanding for those who are less than perfect, and have some legitimate concerns about what seem like increasing challenges and restrictions when things are so hard already.

 

[bookwormde]

Yes ADA does says that the accommodation has to be both practical and not an undue burden, but since this is a “new policy” there was a methodology in place that “worked”. Also the burden of proof of what is and undue burden rest with the company providing the accommodation and also is measured against the “size” and financial capability of the organization, and Disney is about as big as it gets.

Also the standard is not equal access, but equivalent “experience” (a common misunderstanding when ADA is viewed as solely a mobility regulation).

In the simples example the nature of the food lines makes it “impractical” for a family to have an equivalent experience then WDW must provide an alternative (such as a seperate waiting area until a table is available or a "retun time" ticket), , but I am quite sure it is just simpler to use existing seating.

bookwormde

 

[clanmcculloch]

The thing is, right now this family can't eat at these locations at these times. How does this change make this different? How is it discriminatory to make a policy change that will NOT change anything about their experience? The old method DIDN'T work for this family. In fact, this change will allow the family to know as their first entering the restaurant if there is a huge crowd issue (the CM at the front should have some idea of how long the line takes) and can then inform the family that the restaurant is insanely busy so the family can make decisions based on this info. Their experience hasn't changed.

All of us with special needs know that there are going to be things that are impractical for us. It's part of the nature of our special needs. It's important to focus on the options that we DO have rather than complain about the one we don't have. There ARE options for us to have the experience of eating in a WDW restaurant at the busiest of times on the busiest of days. Just because I don't get the option that I want doesn't mean I'm being discriminated against.

Here's an example of what I mean. I recently was told by a chef at Tokyo Dining that he fears for my family's safety if we eat there (I'm sure many of you read that when I posted about it). Does this mean I'm being discriminated against because the chef doesn't believe that he can make our meals safely? No it doesn't. We have PLENTY of other options for dining at Epcot. As to CS locations, there are actually only 2 places in all of Epcot that we can safely get a meal and those options at those locations very are limitted. Am I being discriminated against because I can't walk up to just any place and get safe food for my family? No I'm not. I CAN safely get food at one of the 2 locations specified by Special Diets. Do I have the same experience as everybody else regarding being able to just walk in anywhere any time? No I don't. Is that discrimination? No it isn't. I have options which allow me to buy safe food. I am not being denied access. This is a much better experience than I can get anywhere else around the country so I'm grateful for what I do get. I'm thrilled that my family's food options have actually expanded since our last trip, at least based on looking over the food lists Brenda recently sent to me.

 

[BillSears]

Ireland_Nicole, I think you'll just have to try it out and see what accomadations they are willing to make for you. I suspect that if you ask nicely the CM who is assigning tables will be able to help you out and you'll probably find that this works better since there will be more open tables available.

Personally I love this change. As a wheelchair user who travels solo sometimes this means I'll actually be able to sit at a table. Many times I've tried to navigate through the crowd wil my tray in my lap only to lose the table I was heading for because someone walked between tables to get there first. I've sometimes just sat in the middle of the restaurant and eaten off of my tray in my lap just so I could eat before my food got cold.

To me anything that keeps the tables free for those who actually have thier food is a good change.

 

[ireland_nicole]

Personally, I think that an extension of sorts of allowing the GAC to be used in this situation as required would be an appropriate accomodation. Bill, you should definitely not be having to eat your meal on your lap, and I can certainly see the need for masses of people to not be taking up tables for twice the amount of time. However, it is something that needs to be built into the seating policy. Families who absolutely need either 1. an alternate, quiet place to wait or 2. a table, or 3. a queue line that is fully accessible for a family to wait together even w/ w/cs, ECVs and or strollers; need to consistently know that one of those accomodations can be made before they are "stuck " in a situation with no ability to safely and appropriately access food. All I'm saying is that as this "new" policy is put in place and potentially expanded, Disney needs to be made aware that there are ways of remaining compliant and accessible, but that doing so requires some level of understanding and creative thinking.

 

[merryweather20]

Ah, but it is the same. She wants them to give her a table before she has ordered, before she has the food. Thus- before she is a customer. She intends on becoming a customer, but she's not one right now. I intend on spending the night tomorrow night, but i am not checked in right now. So why wouldn't it be okay for me to take a room, without being a customer and without paying, but it would be okay for someone who is not a customer of a restaurant to sit at the tables? Even if they will be buying food, the 20 minutes her family spends there taking up space which is obviously at a premium, is 20 minutes that Disney cannot put a paying customer at that table.

Nope

Did you not bother to read my example

She needs to know she can sit down and eat before she buys food to eat.

When I'm going to a hotel I'll call and see if they have an accessible room and when it will be available. I need to know before I make the trip. I'm not going to pay until I get there, but I still need to know whether or not they have a room for me. No one is asking for a free room

But, I do need a room once I get there.

The new policy sounds like nothing more than a good way to get spilled drinks.

 

[Disneyadore]

Personally, I think that an extension of sorts of allowing the GAC to be used in this situation as required would be an appropriate accomodation. Bill, you should definitely not be having to eat your meal on your lap, and I can certainly see the need for masses of people to not be taking up tables for twice the amount of time. However, it is something that needs to be built into the seating policy. Families who absolutely need either 1. an alternate, quiet place to wait or 2. a table, or 3. a queue line that is fully accessible for a family to wait together even w/ w/cs, ECVs and or strollers; need to consistently know that one of those accomodations can be made before they are "stuck " in a situation with no ability to safely and appropriately access food. All I'm saying is that as this "new" policy is put in place and potentially expanded, Disney needs to be made aware that there are ways of remaining compliant and accessible, but that doing so requires some level of understanding and creative thinking.

I thought ans chewed a while over this problem.
suppose you an me are in the same line .
I have terribly meltdowns from my chemo. and I have a GAC. You are in line way before me.
There are times I just faint and I really need a chair.
Now I show my GAC to the CM and ask for a seat. There is only one table and you think you are also eligibled to this table.
Who's getting the table you ore me?
How do we solve this probem?

 

[ireland_nicole]

I thought ans chewed a while over this problem.
suppose you an me are in the same line .
I have terribly meltdowns from my chemo. and I have a GAC. You are in line way before me.
There are times I just faint and I really need a chair.
Now I show my GAC to the CM and ask for a seat. There is only one table and you think you are also eligibled to this table.
Who's getting the table you ore me?
How do we solve this probem?

First off, I would happily share my table while you waited for your party- and in fact have done so in the past. Second, how likely do you think it is that two parties will need the exact same accomodation for the only table at the exact same time? We're probably about as likely to be stranded together on a desert island; I just don't think it's a likely scenario.

 

[Disneyadore]

First off, I would happily share my table while you waited for your party- and in fact have done so in the past. Second, how likely do you think it is that two parties will need the exact same accomodation for the only table at the exact same time? We're probably about as likely to be stranded together on a desert island; I just don't think it's a likely scenario.

Well that's your answer but seeing how many people with a GAC this scenario is very well possible.

Further more Disney is trying to let these tables only used by people that are really eating there.
A lot of people use them for eating the food they brought into the park themselves.

And I really don't understand why you simply don't book a table at a table service restaurant as we do. No waiting no problem.

 

[ireland_nicole]

Well that's your answer but seeing how many people with a GAC this scenario is very well possible.

Further more Disney is trying to let these tables only used by people that are really eating there.
A lot of people use them for eating the food they brought into the park themselves.

And I really don't understand why you simply don't book a table at a table service restaurant as we do. No waiting no problem.

umm, because it's not practical to spend 4 hours or more a day eating with kids? And because even going during free dining with all of our medical expenses we can barely make it, so we get one TS and one CS. And because often there is waiting involved in TS, even with an ADR, it's still just getting the next table for your party size; there aren't that many tables for 5.

 

[Schmeck]

She needs to know she can sit down and eat before she buys food to eat.

When I'm going to a hotel I'll call and see if they have an accessible room and when it will be available. I need to know before I make the trip. I'm not going to pay until I get there, but I still need to know whether or not they have a room for me. No one is asking for a free room

But, I do need a room once I get there.

The new policy sounds like nothing more than a good way to get spilled drinks.

With the new policy, she will always have a place to sit down and eat because that's what the CM is there to do - show you to a table.

 

[Hannathy]

I love the new policy, it will allow the restaurant to flow the way it was designed to. It will also move a lot more people through in a shorter period of time. What I don't understand is why is this any difference than when you go to say a Denny's and they don't seat you immediately. You have to wait somewhere until there is a table ready and this is the same way. so who ever would have ordered the food if the kids were at a table still can and the other parent waits with the kids like you would at any other restaurant that didn't have a table available. if both parents are needed to keep the kids there then keep them in line order the food and then when your order is ready tell them you will have to leave it sit there a moment they will show you a table and then one parent can go back up and return with the food.

 

[dclfun]

I'm with Bill- and if anyone had read my earlier post, you'd know my challenges are the same as his. Once we *have* our food, I can't find an accessible table. ALWAYS there are guests at these tables waiting and not eating yet so our food gets cold and we are frustrated. I have to navigate through difficult areas, pushed out chairs, people. Other guests dash in front of me to get a seat before I can get there- and many of them don't have food yet, but gosh darn, they are going to claim that table for themselves and who cares about anyone else. I'm so sick of the entitlement mentality people have. You're worrying about something that hasn't happened and have already decided Disney's new plan won't work for you. I have special needs too, as do many others, so would have just as much right to request to have my family seated at an accessible table before we get our food ... but why should I deserve special treatment? You're right...I don't, and neither does anyone else. When you have your food, you'll be seated. The CM at the door will make sure there is a table for you and your family. You and the kids can wait in the entryway while your husband gets food. A CM will help with the trays. What's so hard about that? It should be a calmer atmosphere rather than the tension-filled one we've all had in the past and that will help every guest to do what they need to do at mealtimes which is to relax! I'm sure if there were circumstances that warranted a special accommodation it would be made, but before you ask for one or expect a problem..why not give it a try? You might be thrilled to find out this will give you a much better dining experience.---Kathy

 

[Stellapedia]

She will always know there are tables available. They're not going to let her buy the food without a table available. New thing, that's the point of the rule, really.
And Disney does not NEED to provide any of the things you asked for. You WANT them to do so. But they don't NEED to do this to remain "compliant" because there is no ADA requirement for what you are asking. Disney, in my experience, goes head over heels above and beyond to make things easier on guests. I can take my dog on almost every ride, and they want me to do so. Know what Busch Gardens tells me? "We discourage the dog from going on any attraction, but if the dog must go he is allowed on Congo, train, and skyride." Yep, that's it, taken directly from their pamphlet. If I need food for my kid, someone personally walks it and makes sure it remains safe. Guess what other places do? "I don't think it has xyz in it."

Don't make an assumption that i don't know what it's like to deal with a child like that. My adult brother, who is profoundly deaf, is autistic and was so long before it was a sought after diagnosis. Before he came into our lives at age 4, he was basically locked in a room because his mother couldn't handle him. After my father and his mother split, she took him from his only family and put him into foster care out of spite for my father (whoc was not his legal parent). I reconnected with him and our sister as an adult, after nearly ten years of separation. But as a child, this child who no one could reach, it was a nightmare. We couldn't even talk to him because he couldn't hear us. He banged his head into walls, bit, kicked, hit, screamed, raged, and was out of control. He was institutionalized at the state school for the deaf. Now, as an adult, he's living with my sister (neither talks to their mother) and is completely helpless. He can communicate, but he cannot care for himself. She has a 2 year old daughter and spends more time taking care of him than her. After Christmas he'll be going into a group home/rehab center to hopefully learn how to get by. So yes, I know quite well what it's like. I also know that my sister and I will be responsible for him for life, and he's bigger than both of us.

But when we take him out, I cannot require that someplace give me a special spot to corral him and control his behavior. I cannot claim discrimination or that I am unwelcome simply because their are rules which are applied across the board which violate the rights of no one and are NOT non-compliant with the ADA.

Which brings me another question... are behavioral disorders covered under the ADA? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't know the answer and this thread has made me wonder. We've never needed to know with my brother, because he's deaf which is covered and therefore he is "entitled" to most of the accomodations he needs. But I just plain don't know the answer for autism and related disorders.

 

[Schmeck]

Yes, the ADA has listed neurological (not behavioral though) issues that affect a basic life skill as being covered under its umbrella.

 

[Beccabunny]

Autism is not a behavioral disorder. I believe your prejudices are showing with the use of terms such as "sought after diagnosis" and "corral and control."