My long night home from EPCOT, those darn double loading buses and the EPCOT boat...

[SueM in MN]

I just want to say that I do have confidence that Disney will do evaluations on this...

I got a survey and this was part of what they were asking about...so it seems like they are at least listening.

I have such a hard time giving Disney a hard time for this, because on so many other things they are INCREDIBLE and go way above and beyond what would be required of them to allow those who have disabilities of all kinds to enjoy the parks.

I think the long waits will be rare...and don't want someone reading this really going out of their way to avoid the bus altogether because they are afraid of the wait. For the most part - especially in the middle of the day - the bus will be just like it has always been for us.

But I think those that are going should document - well - what happens, time of day, where it happened and we should call as soon as it happens and let them know the outcome. And what difference it made in our vacation experience. Hopefully they won't do the construction on the rest of the queues until they see how this is really going to work.

I do think they are trying to be fair...It just is not working in all cases - as we see here for sure.

I agree.

I suggested the ADA website for complaints because some people will feel strongly that is the route they want to take.
I would prefer personally to complain to Disney so they have a chance to change without being forced to.
I think they changed how they were doing things without thinking thru the effects. It sounds like Mainstream bus lines would work, and at certain times, they will. But for a variety of reasons, at certain times they will seriously handicap guests who are using wheelchairs and ECVs who are not able to fold their wheelchair and walk onto the bus.

I thought of several scenarios that might help make this more clear:

#1: Our party is me, DH, DD using a wheelchair and 2-3 other people. DD is not able to get out of her wheelchair.
It’s the middle of the day and there are 10 -15 other people waiting at the bus stop when we get there. DD and one person wait at the wheelchair boarding spot and the rest of our party gets into the Mainstream line. Other people join the line behind us after we got into line.
When the bus arrives, the driver asks everyone in line to wait until DD’s wheelchair is loaded, in order to make sure there is space to load and tie down the wheelchair. After she is loaded, the rest of the guests in line (including the members of our party who did not board with DD) get onto the bus. Guests who were behind us in line keep boarding until the bus is full.
End result: Our whole party gets onto the same bus. There may be other people who got in line after us who don’t get on, but everyone who was in line before us gets onto the bus and gets a seat.

#2: Our party is me, DH, DD using a wheelchair and 2-3 other people. DD is not able to get out of her wheelchair.
It’s the middle of the day and there are 10 - 15 other people waiting at the stop when we get there. Our whole party gets into the Mainstream line and other people join the line behind us after we get into line.
When the bus arrives, guests in line start boarding.
When we get to the front, the driver stops boarding and asks everyone in line to wait until DD’s wheelchair is loaded, in order to make sure there is space to load and tie down the wheelchair. After she is loaded, the rest of the guests in line (including the members of our party who did not board with DD) get onto the bus. Guests who were behind us in line keep boarding until the bus is full.
End result: Our whole party gets onto the same bus. There may be other people who got in line after us who don’t get on, but everyone who was in line before us gets onto the bus and gets a seat.

#3: Our party is me, DH, DD using a wheelchair and 2-3 other people. DD is not able to get out of her wheelchair.
When we get to the stop, there are other people already waiting at the stop. Even though there are quite a few people waiting, we can see our whole party will get on and even get seats. DD and one person wait at the wheelchair boarding spot and the rest of our party gets into the Mainstream line. Other people get into line behind us.
When the bus arrives, the driver asks everyone in line to wait until DD’s wheelchair is loaded, in order to make sure there is space to load and tie down the wheelchair. After she is loaded, the rest of the guests in line (including the members of our party who did not board with DD) get onto the bus. Guests who were behind us in line keep boarding until the bus is full.
End result: Our whole party gets onto the bus at the same time. There may be other people who got in line after us who don’t get on, but everyone who was in line before us gets onto the bus and gets a seat.

#4: Our party is me, DH, DD using a wheelchair and 2-3 other people. DD is not able to get out of her wheelchair.
When we get to the stop, there are other people already waiting at the stop. Even though there are quite a few people waiting, we can see our whole party will get on and even get seats. Our whole party gets into the Mainstream line. Other guests enter the line behind us.
When the bus arrives, guests in line start boarding. When we get to the front, the driver stops us from boarding and says there is no room for DD’s wheelchair to be loaded.
The driver tells us our choices are to:
- all wait for another bus so that we can ride together or
- split up and have DD and one or 2 other members of our party wait for another bus while the rest of us get onto this bus.
We make our decision and guests who were behind us in line keep boarding until the bus is full.
End result: Depending on what choice we make, some or all of our party do not get onto the bus.
There may be other people who got in line after us who don’t get on, but many people who were behind us in line will get on and some of them will even get seats.
Everyone who was in line before us gets onto the bus and gets a seat.

Scenarios 1 and 2 are the same except for where DD and 1-2 of our party wait in line and have the same outcome - we all get on the bus.
Scenarios 3 and 4 are the same except for where DD and 1-2 of our party wait in line, but the waiting place makes a difference in the outcome.
Scenarios #1, 2 and 3 have happened to us many times.
Scenario 4 has not happened to us personally, because we stay at OKW, which typically doesn’t have real busy bus stops. We also try hard to avoid leaving a park at the busiest times.

There is another scenario that has happened to us.
It involves a scenario like #2 or #4 where we have gotten into the Mainstream Line. BUT, other guests with ECVs drove directly to the place where wheelchairs would board. They got loaded ahead of us. We did not get to board and had to wait for the next bus.
I don’t blame them because WDW doesn’t give direction of what guests with wheelchairs and ECVs are supposed to do.

 

[mrsksomeday]

I had emailed my concerns to WDW about what had happened to BillSears and Maroo about 2 weeks ago. Today a received a phone call from Jerry, a manager at Epcot.

We spent 20 minutes on the phone discussing the double loading issue, the going through the queue issue, and how they had received several complaints about wheelchairs "skipping the line".

He told me it was the drivers discretion about double loading and it happens sometimes. I informed him it happens all the time, that in our 7 trips I have seen it every time we have been there. That is it NOT fair to people in wheelchairs/ECV's and it shouldn't happen. I reiterated what had happened to Bill and Maroo.

He stated that especially at closing they are going to have "greeters" that will assist wheelchair parties. He says most of the complaints are about large parties coming up with the wheelchair and skipping the line. He stated they would have the greeter explain that only so many people could stay with the chair and the other people would need to go through the queue. He also stated that they want to make if fair for everyone.

I told him that while I understood that, I felt the separate line for wheelchairs/ECV's was more safe due to the inexperience of a lot of ECV users at WDW. I told him there will be injuries due to inexperienced drivers trying to navigate the bus queues. I also stated the fact that many of these wheelchairs are over $10,000 and people don't respect them. I told them it would be very hard for a person in a wheelchair using a service dog to go through the regular line with children not respecting or understanding that the dog is working and parents not watching their children. I also stated there is more of a chance of someone pulling something off the chair, like an oxygen line for example. When people are tired they are not paying attention and that can be dangerous for someone with a disability.

He said it was a work in progress and that if we had any issues to call the transportation # and state the problems right then. It is the same # Sue has listed in the FAQ's thread. He stated that the other parks would start having mainstream queuing as well.

I will definitely be calling if the double loading is still going on and we have the same problems Bill and Maroo had. I will post when we get back as to how things are now.

 

[pampam]

I had emailed my concerns to WDW about what had happened to BillSears and Maroo about 2 weeks ago. Today a received a phone call from Jerry, a manager at Epcot.

We spent 20 minutes on the phone discussing the double loading issue, the going through the queue issue, and how they had received several complaints about wheelchairs "skipping the line".

He told me it was the drivers discretion about double loading and it happens sometimes. I informed him it happens all the time, that in our 7 trips I have seen it every time we have been there. That is it NOT fair to people in wheelchairs/ECV's and it shouldn't happen. I reiterated what had happened to Bill and Maroo.

He stated that especially at closing they are going to have "greeters" that will assist wheelchair parties. He says most of the complaints are about large parties coming up with the wheelchair and skipping the line. He stated they would have the greeter explain that only so many people could stay with the chair and the other people would need to go through the queue. He also stated that they want to make if fair for everyone.

I told him that while I understood that, I felt the separate line for wheelchairs/ECV's was more safe due to the inexperience of a lot of ECV users at WDW. I told him there will be injuries due to inexperienced drivers trying to navigate the bus queues. I also stated the fact that many of these wheelchairs are over $10,000 and people don't respect them. I told them it would be very hard for a person in a wheelchair using a service dog to go through the regular line with children not respecting or understanding that the dog is working and parents not watching their children. I also stated there is more of a chance of someone pulling something off the chair, like an oxygen line for example. When people are tired they are not paying attention and that can be dangerous for someone with a disability.

He said it was a work in progress and that if we had any issues to call the transportation # and state the problems right then. It is the same # Sue has listed in the FAQ's thread. He stated that the other parks would start having mainstream queuing as well.

I will definitely be calling if the double loading is still going on and we have the same problems Bill and Maroo had. I will post when we get back as to how things are now.

Thank you for posting. It sounds like if one has a problem they are to call transportation right away. That's not easy for those of us who do not carry a cell phone.

 

[mrsksomeday]

Thank you for posting. It sounds like if one has a problem they are to call transportation right away. That's not easy for those of us who do not carry a cell phone.

In that case, I would take note of the time, get the bus numbers involved, and call when you get back to your resort. It seems people have complained about how wheelchairs are loaded first, how too many people load with them etc., so we need to complain as well when we have issues.

 

[cm8]

In that case, I would take note of the time, get the bus numbers involved, and call when you get back to your resort. It seems people have complained about how wheelchairs are loaded first, how too many people load with them etc., so we need to complain as well when we have issues.

Wow, that is sad, funny thing no one has mentioned is that the wheel chairs are the LAST to un load as the rest of us run off the bus. I have always thought that they only needed to allow up to 2 people to board with a WC/ECV and the rest in the line with every one else. Unless it was a family of small children with the wc /ecv user, the rest should take their place in line

 

[mrsksomeday]

Wow, that is sad, funny thing no one has mentioned is that the wheel chairs are the LAST to un load as the rest of us run off the bus. I have always thought that they only needed to allow up to 2 people to board with a WC/ECV and the rest in the line with every one else. Unless it was a family of small children with the wc /ecv user, the rest should take their place in line

I did say that we were the last off the bus and he understood that. He said he had a brother with Cerebral Palsy that uses a power wheelchair so he does understand the frustration.

He said it should be only 5 people plus the chair staying at the part where the wheelchair loads and others in the party should go through the line. He stated when those members got through the line they could reunite with the wheelchair/ECV user and then they could all get on the bus together. He said if it was done that way the people in the line would see that the wheelchair user had waited for the rest of the party before they boarded.

 

[maroo]

Wow, that is sad, funny thing no one has mentioned is that the wheel chairs are the LAST to un load as the rest of us run off the bus. I have always thought that they only needed to allow up to 2 people to board with a WC/ECV and the rest in the line with every one else. Unless it was a family of small children with the wc /ecv user, the rest should take their place in line

Two really isn't enough to keep a family together. If the person using a wheelchair is a child, then they could only take two parents...and leave their kids? Or take one parent and split up the family??

I agree that a large group of people should not board with a person in a wheelchair - it isn't fair to those waiting. A tour group, for example, with one person in a wheelchair - doesn't make as much sense. But a person in a wheelchair should be able to ride the bus with their immediate family.

We had a group of 7 (total) with us and we split up a couple of times going back to the resort - but for the most part we stayed together. The family actually has a total of 6 people - but I was there as a nurse and it didn't make much sense for me to ride back by myself and made even less sense to send her family on another bus.

So I think the CM's should use their best judgement - and it would help to have a CM at the bus stop during busy times to make sure that everyone is taken care of.

Before this mainstream business, I would get to the POP bus stop and tell the CM there that I would wait, since the line was long and there is no way I would have made that bus if I was walking through the line. We can police ourselves, for the most part, if we would all just be respectful of each other. Of course, I know that isn't going to work for everyone...I am just dreaming over here.

 

[clkelley]

Before this mainstream business, I would get to the POP bus stop and tell the CM there that I would wait, since the line was long and there is no way I would have made that bus if I was walking through the line.

I just thought of something though. If they get rid of the mainstreaming, you probably shouldn't wait, especially in the Value Resort lines. Let's say while you were waiting "your turn", 4 other wheechairs/ECVs pulled up right behind you. If you had gone ahead and gotten on the bus, at least two of those folks behind you could get on the next bus. Where as now because you waited, you delayed the chairs behind you by at least one bus.

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks for posting about your phone call, mrsksomeday. It sounds like you got all the important points in.

I know that there were several (well, actually many more than several) threads in the past few months where people were complaining about guests with wheelchairs skipping the line. I know that some were exaggerating - for example, posters said they had waited in line for 40 minutes or something and 4 people with ECVs drove up at the last minute and all got on the bus with their huge parties, leaving no room on the bus for anyone who had been waiting. Since there are only a few buses that hold 3 wheelchairs/ECVs and none that hold 4, this could not be correct.
Posters wrote to complain to Disney if the posters didn't like it.

If only a few people on each of those threads sent an email or letter to Disney, they would have gotten quite a few.

Wow, that is sad, funny thing no one has mentioned is that the wheel chairs are the LAST to un load as the rest of us run off the bus. I have always thought that they only needed to allow up to 2 people to board with a WC/ECV and the rest in the line with every one else. Unless it was a family of small children with the wc /ecv user, the rest should take their place in line

As far back as I know, Disney's policy has always been that a wheelchair party = 5 people plus the person using the wheelchair or ECV.
There are some situations where 2 people boarding wiht the wheelchair would work, but many others where it would not work at all.

 

[chloelovesdisney]

Is this new boarding policy only for value hotel bus lines?

I recently returned from POFQ and this was not the case at all. ECVs and WCs waited on the side of the bus line along with their families, boarded first with their entire party and were not mainstreamed in the bus lines at the resort or parks. There were some grumblings by a couple of people behind us on line leaving both Epcot and MK because ECVs pulled up to the side of the line and were boarded immediately on the next bus to arrive along with their party, and there was already a long line at the bus stop waiting due to the closing time. Overall though it appeared people were very understanding.

I think unfortunately that the system errs sometimes in favor one way or the other and either way someone is upset. Sometimes a person in an EVC or WC bypasses the waiting line at the bus stop. It does happen at times. I've never seen a CM enforce the party of five boarding rule, ever in all of my trips to DW. The entire party gets on together (I've seen parties of 10 and more several times) and this may be the sticking point that so many complain about. Should an entire grand gathering preboard when there is a waiting line?

The system of double boarding goes all the way in the other direction. Now those who can walk on may be bypassing a party that needs to board with a mobility device. This never happened during my trip in October for POFQ, the next bus always waited and then pulled into the stop so I'm wondering if this is consistently done by all resorts or maybe just the values at peak times.

I think that Disney is trying to work on this but it is not easy. They need to come up with a policy that allows everyone to board at their party's turn, expediently and safely and enforce it. If the same policy for boarding and pulling in buses was consistently followed I think there would be much fewer complaints all around.

On a side note, the issue of whether a bus can continue to load passengers if it can't load a person in an ECV or wheelchair happens locally sometimes. If a NYC bus already has its 3 spots full for a mobility device, it does not stop loading passengers. It loads as many other people as it can. If the lift is broken on the bus, it continues in service (for that shift at least). It won't help anyone to pull a bus out of service, even one bus during rush hour makes a big difference.

 

[aubriee]

Is this new boarding policy only for value hotel bus lines?

I recently returned from POFQ and this was not the case at all. ECVs and WCs waited on the side of the bus line along with their families, boarded first with their entire party and were not mainstreamed in the bus lines at the resort or parks. There were some grumblings by a couple of people behind us on line leaving both Epcot and MK because ECVs pulled up to the side of the line and were boarded immediately on the next bus to arrive along with their party, and there was already a long line at the bus stop waiting due to the closing time. Overall though it appeared people were very understanding.

The system of double boarding goes all the way in the other direction. Now those who can walk on may be bypassing a party that needs to board with a mobility device. This never happened during my trip in October for POFQ, the next bus always waited and then pulled into the stop so I'm wondering if this is consistently done by all resorts or maybe just the values at peak times.
.

I don't think it has anything to do with the value resorts. We were at CBR in Oct and the only place we saw it was coming home from Epcot. Going to the park was the same as usual with ECVs loading first, but coming home they were in the main line, then there was a cut off when they got close to the front. I know two different days, people in ECVs were complaining that they had waited through several buses and still hadn't made it on due to the buses double parking. This didn't happen (or at least we didn't see it) at the other parks, only at Epcot.

 

[mom3sonstt]

I just got back from a trip. I stayed at Boardwalk, partially because it was Food & Wine and partially because I wanted to avoid buses. It was a short hubby & me only trip and we each had our own agendas. On arrival day the only thing we did was go to Epcot for a quick supper. Monday he went to Animal Kingdom to take pictures and play with his new camera lens. In my quest to avoid buses I went to Epcot again. Tuesday we went to Studios and Epcot. Wednesday we had breakfast at Kona at the Polynesian. We scheduled it so we would have time to go through Epcot and catch the monorail to the Ticket Center then we "walked" from there. AFter breakfast we went to Magic Kingdom. When we left the plan had been to monorail it back, but DH was looking for the DVC exclusive Vinylmation so we took a bus to Old Key West.

It was mid-afternoon and we went to the OKW bus stop. The one one past it was blocked off, but I didn't get a good look at why because the bus was already there. Unfortunately the back door was lined up with the fence. It was also one of the older buses where the ramp flips out and you have to back on to it. There was no way me on my scooter could make such a sharp turn - let alone backwards. She lowered the ramp and I got off and DH freewheeled and man-handled it onto the ramp and got it into its spot on the bus. There were only a handful of people on the bus.

At OKW we looked through the general store and asked about the Vinylmation. We had been given bad information - at Boardwalk the CM told us there were 2 different designs, but she only had one of them. We had been looking for the 2nd one. At OKW we were told that there was only one so far, but that there would probably be more later as there was artwork for some floating around out htere. From OKW we took the boat to Downtown Disney. After doing some shopping we took another bus back. It was getting a little later so I suggested we get on at the Marketplace end since they pick up there first so my chances of getting a spot would be better. Of course that meant more shopping. But when we decided to leave the bus stops were the same as I had ever seen them. I was loaded first. Even after stopping at the other side there were still empty seats. We did wind up getting off at the Swan (the first stop). We figured that would free up my spot if anybody going downtown needed it. It also made it easier for me to get off becuase the driver put me in the front loading spot. If another scooter got on and filled the back spot it would be hard to maneuver. As it was when we told the driver we would just get off at Swan he freewheeled the scooter around facing the right direction for me.

So my two only bus experiences on this trip were positive. We had a little trouble at MK because the ramp wouldn't fold back up when she tried to put it away and I was worried that I was going to cause everyone on the bus to have to wait for a replacement bus, but she finally got it to work. And the drivers we had downtown were both helpful (one loaded at marketplace then was replaced by another at PI) But I also planned this trip around avoiding buses. I had wanted to stay for the Main Street Electric parade but DH vetoed me - I don't know how much worse the busing would have been if we had waited for that to let out.....although I would have pressed for a monorail to epcot if we had stayed so maybe I would have avoided them altogether.

 

[toocherie]

Thanks for posting about your phone call, mrsksomeday. It sounds like you got all the important points in.

Since there are only a few buses that hold 3 wheelchairs/ECVs and none that hold 4, this could not be correct.
Posters wrote to complain to Disney if the posters didn't like it.

Sue--I just got back from WDW--one of the buses was the one that held three wheelchairs/ECVs and when I commented on it (while my scooter was being tied down) the bus driver said that there were also a few buses that held 4 wheelchairs/ECVs now in service.

 

[clkelley]

Sue--I just got back from WDW--one of the buses was the one that held three wheelchairs/ECVs and when I commented on it (while my scooter was being tied down) the bus driver said that there were also a few buses that held 4 wheelchairs/ECVs now in service.

Yep, I forgot to mention that. At least one of them is on the internal route at Fort Wilderness. Saw it Halloween week, but did not have the camera with me.

(Another bus tidbit). The internal routes at Fort Wilderness will always have the newest buses because of emissions issues. They are also the only buses that truly just run in circles. They are not on the dynamic routes like the rest of the system.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue--I just got back from WDW--one of the buses was the one that held three wheelchairs/ECVs and when I commented on it (while my scooter was being tied down) the bus driver said that there were also a few buses that held 4 wheelchairs/ECVs now in service.

Thanks - that's new.
I saw someone posting about 4 ECVs a couple years ago when the 3 position buses were just new.

 

[chloelovesdisney]

I don't think it has anything to do with the value resorts. We were at CBR in Oct and the only place we saw it was coming home from Epcot. Going to the park was the same as usual with ECVs loading first, but coming home they were in the main line, then there was a cut off when they got close to the front. I know two different days, people in ECVs were complaining that they had waited through several buses and still hadn't made it on due to the buses double parking. This didn't happen (or at least we didn't see it) at the other parks, only at Epcot.

Okay, that makes more sense. I didn't see that at Epcot either so wasn't sure. It sounds like they are testing the new boarding policy, I'm sure they'll make adjustments to correct the issues causing complaints.

 

[mrsksomeday]

Thanks - that's new.
I saw someone posting about 4 ECVs a couple years ago when the 3 position buses were just new.

Sue, if we happen to make it on a 3 or 4 accessible spot bus I will take pictures for us .

 

[Schmeck]

When we were there last August, there were many 3 spot buses, and quite a few 4 spot ones too. We stayed at Pop Century.

 

[icouldlivethere]

I also just got back from a trip to the BW. In an effort to conserve my batteries we decided to ride the boat one day. I was first in line and was surprised when the boat came to hear the CM go up to a scooter further back in the line and tell her sorry we will only take one scooter per trip. I couldn't hear his explanation for why. I was allowed on along with a couple of people with strollers. When I looked back on the dock I could see a woman in a scooter as well as several people with strollers who had been asked to stand to the side while others got on the boat.

We stopped at the BC next and there were no scooters or strollers waiting there. Next we stopped at the Swan/Dolphin and a double stroller came on and that took up the rest of the space. I'm thinking they limit it to one scooter per stop because otherwise people waiting with scooters at the BC and Swan/Dolphin would never be able to get on.

 

[blondietink]

Regarding the boats: We have been asked at times to fold our travel chairs and walk on, otherwise we would have to wait for another boat. Reasons given have been either low water levels and it is a weight issue or the space is taken up in the back by others with wheelchairs/scooters/strollers.

When we were there in October, the boats were crammed with people with strollers/scooters/wheelchairs and other people, but I did not hear anybody being refused. So, the low water level explaination could be in play here.