Defunding The Police

[shelemm]

Before engaging in a complicated argument can you tell me why Trump can stop payments of money approved by congress to WHO yet not to Ukraine?

I am sure both are problematic legally, but the complaint regarding Ukraine was tied to getting a foreign entity to investigate Joe Biden.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I am sure both are problematic legally, but the complaint regarding Ukraine was tied to getting a foreign entity to investigate Joe Biden.

IMO neither is legally problematic. The difference was one had a political ramification that could be exploited and the bonus of confusing the actual amount of corruption and time line of corruption in Ukraine. The impeachment was for actions in 2020 but leaving aside the multitude of problems with the article the actions in 2020 were tied and could not be severed from the prior actions of corruption in Ukraine. Again I am as anti trump as exists ... but only for what is real. He could have been impeached for actions that justified impeachment. He was not. I voted Obama twice and would again. That does not change the fact that corruption was rewarded and you need look no further than https://oversightboard.pr.gov/fombteam/natalie-jaresko/. Great plum reward for one of the most corrupt humans of that decade. Do some research on her use of US funds, wonder why she got the appointment and by whom. Find out why the government was requiring the return of US taxpayer funds from private firms in Ukraine.

Sorry I see this is getting really far from the thread topic.

 

[LuvOrlando]

There is science involved. It's mind blowing. In grade school, I was taught to look at ways commercials try to influence my behavior. I was not taught to deal with the information warfare happening via social media.


I pretty much gave up on US news sources. I still read Bloomberg, but I get most of my news from outside of the US. I want to hear what other countries are saying about us. Lately, I’ve turned off the news completely. It’s mostly bad news.

I'm with you, I read external and some US - but when I do I try to wade into both sides of the spectrum to get a faint beat on reality.

I miss propaganda laws, there was barely a squeak when they were repealed with Smith-Mundt Modernization Act of 2012
What we have now is just sad weird and mostly like listening to a drunk neighbor shout stuff from the porch - or maybe 2 drunk neighbors fighting from their porches over my yard.

 

[shelemm]

IMO neither is legally problematic. The difference was one had a political ramification that could be exploited

The WHO defunding has political ramifications, but that is clearly after impeachment and if all the Ukraine evidence was not going to sway Republicans, nobody is talking impeachment for WHO defunding. I am not sure I get your point at all in comparing the two.

confusing the actual amount of corruption and time line of corruption in Ukraine.

I am not confused by the amount or timeline.

... but only for what is real.

Well, there was all that real testimony, from State Department officials and military personnel. Unless one is a 'Deep State' conspiracy theorist, that all seems real to me and explains the redactions.

https://oversightboard.pr.gov/fombteam/natalie-jaresko/. Great plum reward for one of the most corrupt humans of that decade. Do some research on her use of US funds, wonder why she got the appointment and by whom. Find out why the government was requiring the return of US taxpayer funds from private firms in Ukraine.

I looked up the info about Natalie Jaresko. She made a ton of money as an investment banker in the often unscrupulous ways that investment bankers and many corporate officers do. Yes, it is terrible. But your allegation that she is one of the "most corrupt humans of the decade" seems like you are ignoring a lot of other corruption.

On Frontline this week I saw the story about InSys, the fentanyl drug company that bribed doctors to prescribe off-label an opioid that is 100x more powerful than morphine and has led to many, many deaths and people being horribly addicted. You may have heard about this. I think the officials there were much more horribly corrupt and their sins far more damaging. In January the CEO was sent to prison for five years (not bad for having made Billions and was basically as villainous as any drug lord.)

There are actually good arguments to be made that Natalie Jaresko was instrumental in transforming the Ukranian economy, though she could have done it without excessive profit which she only gained through a loophole. That sounds VERY familiar if you follow any shenanigans regarding corporate loopholes and scheming the system for billions.

She was appointed to her position in Puerto Rico based on her financial genius. I think she should give her excessive profit back, but then again I am across-the-board against allowing corporate officials and investment bankers to profit from loopholes. If people are skirting the intent of the law for profit, they should all give the money back.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ngton-racist-police-recording/?outputType=amp

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

The point is the President has a duty under the constitution and federal pre existing law to investigate corruption and that foreign aid is dependent upon that. The law passed in 1974 (Nixon law) has nothing to with either of those and does not preempt either. The house raised this to obscure what Biden had done, which is not related to 'favors' for his son at all and to drag the idiots Trump and Rudy G into a mess where they could continue to hang themselves.

Did you note the years Jaresko worked for the USA before her outright fraud? Why she came back to US employment who brought her back? Does early 2014 jump out as significant and important, especially the beginning months? Did you note how she got appointed to the Ukrainian position or her citizenship games? It was not genius it was theft. She illegally awarded US AID to her own company/companies. In short, this money, along with the money Bursima was awarded were among the AID the USA was requiring to be returned which is not to be confused with the British or internal investigations.

To be clearly and definitively obvious: Biden had legal authority from Obama for what Joe Biden did in Ukraine. Period. Full stop. This is not only to threaten aid but to stop aid 100%.

Trump also has the right and the power to stop any aid. Period. Full Stop.

The WHO defunding has political ramifications, but that is clearly after impeachment and if all the Ukraine evidence was not going to sway Republicans, nobody is talking impeachment for WHO defunding. I am not sure I get your point at all in comparing the two. .... I think she should give her excessive profit back, but then again I am across-the-board against allowing corporate officials and investment bankers to profit from loopholes. If people are skirting the intent of the law for profit, they should all give the money back.

 

[shelemm]

Trump also has the right and the power to stop any aid. Period. Full Stop.

You make some good points, but I don't agree with your punctuation. When you use that wording, you make it seem as if it is oh-so-simple and innocent, but I think the Ukraine situation is horrific. He was not doing an investigation. He was asking for political assistance from a foreign entity. He was using a personal lawyer to try and make deals that would benefit him politically, not try to uncover corruption. Nobody cared whether there was even an investigation, just that one was announced. The money was released once people found out what he was doing. Hence the redactions. And coverups. And lying.

In terms of Natalie Jaresko, many sources, including detractors, seem to credit her for reshaping the Ukranian economy. You seem to be on a rant about her wickedness all out of proportion to what goes on every day in the United States no matter who did the appointing. I agree with you, she should give the money back, and I will not complain if she is fired. But I will say that she has a highly specific and great track record of skills suited to her position in Puerto Rico, so I can understand why she was appointed.

 

[JimMIA]

Defunding...meet Reality!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ourse-with-u-s-city-budget-gaps-idUSKBN23W2TE

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ngton-racist-police-recording/?outputType=amp

This won't open for me because I have exceeded my quota and they want money. I have not found their product to be worth paying for. Could you cut and paste some of it?

 

[mi*vida*loca]

This won't open for me because I have exceeded my quota and they want money. I have not found their product to be worth paying for. Could you cut and paste some of it?

this is another site

https://portcitydaily.com/local-new...m-f-ni-i-cant-wait-god-i-cant-wait-free-read/

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

You make some good points, but I don't agree with your punctuation. When you use that wording, you make it seem as if it is oh-so-simple and innocent, but I think the Ukraine situation is horrific. He was not doing an investigation. He was asking for political assistance from a foreign entity. He was using a personal lawyer to try and make deals that would benefit him politically, not try to uncover corruption. Nobody cared whether there was even an investigation, just that one was announced. The money was released once people found out what he was doing. Hence the redactions. And coverups. And lying.

You do not get to put your impressions or values into US foreign policy. Every president has the power. It is not name nor ideology related. It does not require the presidents authority to go to some predetermined person. Bill got to pick HRC as his health czar. Trump gets Jivanka. The president gets to pick who he trusts. Period. Full stop. Even a private attorney.

I often don't agree with punctuation either. But this is simple. Innocence also has zero to do with foreign aid which is about coercing people, governments and making them do what we want them to do. You can - from political motives - try and make a cart and horse argument. It does not work. It does not matter. He has the right and if finding Biden family corruption is a political benefit then that is reality. If you are really trying to deny the basis for a corruption investigation into Ukraine even pre 2014 we are done because you are just ignoring facts. The basis existed and exists. You don't get to stop investigations into fraud by running for president.

Finally, I consider myself someone and this someone breaks your 'nobody' argument and there are a lot of people like me. We want the investigation that was chumped for political purposes. I want the facts.

You seem to attribute reality about the aid to the fact the idiot Rudy G did stupid things after the fact. history does not work that way. Releasing the aid was the work of fools who have little understanding of what they were doing. You can attribute genius to the 3 stooges for making clam chowder. I choose not too. At almost every step in this pathetic episode trump and company did the dumbest thing they could have......this should not surprise anyone.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

this is another site

https://portcitydaily.com/local-new...m-f-ni-i-cant-wait-god-i-cant-wait-free-read/

Thank you. Oh is this vile.
Nobody should be able to read this and not get that this is not now and has never been about rotten apples. Not only is that a distraction and cover it is fraud. No amount of rotten apples are acceptable. Talk like this is not locker room. It is not spur of the moment or just 'being a guy'. Is anyone so naive as to believe this was the time? Or that no other officer heard? One of these guys a 20+ year veteran.

WILMINGTON — “We are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them fu—– ni—–. I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.
These are the words of a now-former Wilmington Police Department officer Kevin Piner...Piner tells Gilmore that the only thing this agency is concerned with is “kneeling down with the black folks.” Gilmore then said that he watched a video on social media about white people bowing down on their knees and “worshipping blacks,” according to the summary....
The conversation then turned to other police officers in the Wilmington Police Department — black officers. The audio has Piner calling one of the officers ‘bad news’ and a ‘piece of ****.’

“Let’s see how his boys take care of him when **** gets rough, see if they don’t put a bullet in his head,” Piner said about a fellow officer.
According to the summary, “Moore began telling Piner about an arrest ... refers to the female as a ‘negro’ and a ‘ni—-‘ on multiple occasions.”

He also referred to a magistrate judge, who is also black, as a ‘****ing negro magistrate.’

“At one point, Moore states, “She needed a bullet in her head right then and move on. Let’s move the body out of the way and keep going.” Piner responds, ‘That’s what I have been trying to tell you,'” according to the documents....

“Piner tells Moore later in the conversation that he feels a civil war is coming and he is ‘ready.’ Piner advised he is going to buy a new assault rifle in the next couple of weeks. A short time later Officer Piner began to discuss society being close to ‘martial law’ and soon ‘we are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them ****ing ni—–. I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.’ Moore responded that he would not do that. Piner stated, ‘I am ready,'” according to the summary.

“Officer Piner then explained to Cpl. Moore that he felt society needed a civil war to “wipe ’em off the ****ing map. That’ll put ’em back about four or five generations.'”

 

[shelemm]

You do not get to put your impressions or values into US foreign policy. Every president has the power. It is not name nor ideology related. It does not require the presidents authority to go to some predetermined person. Bill got to pick HRC as his health czar. Trump gets Jivanka. The president gets to pick who he trusts. Period. Full stop. Even a private attorney.

I often don't agree with punctuation either. But this is simple. Innocence also has zero to do with foreign aid which is about coercing people, governments and making them do what we want them to do. You can - from political motives - try and make a cart and horse argument. It does not work. It does not matter. He has the right and if finding Biden family corruption is a political benefit then that is reality. If you are really trying to deny the basis for a corruption investigation into Ukraine even pre 2014 we are done because you are just ignoring facts. The basis existed and exists. You don't get to stop investigations into fraud by running for president.

Finally, I consider myself someone and this someone breaks your 'nobody' argument and there are a lot of people like me. We want the investigation that was chumped for political purposes. I want the facts.

You seem to attribute reality about the aid to the fact the idiot Rudy G did stupid things after the fact. history does not work that way. Releasing the aid was the work of fools who have little understanding of what they were doing. You can attribute genius to the 3 stooges for making clam chowder. I choose not too. At almost every step in this pathetic episode trump and company did the dumbest thing they could have......this should not surprise anyone.

Pardon me, I meant 'nobody cared' in The White House. Clearly you and others care. If they wanted to investigate, they didn't have to ask a foreign government clandestinely to announce an investigation, they could have launched an investigation themselves and announced it. In fact, if they had done that impeachment would have been highly unlikely. It was asking a foreign entity for personal political assistance which is indeed a campaign contribution forbidden by law. Not that impeachment needs a crime. The President's actions in withholding aid need not be criminal to be impeachable, though doing it to smear a political rival is despicable. You seem to be making excuses for an Imperial Presidency with complete disregard for legislation passed by congress and signed into law.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Pardon me, I meant 'nobody cared' in The White House. Clearly you and others care. If they wanted to investigate, they didn't have to ask a foreign government clandestinely to announce an investigation, they could have launched an investigation themselves and announced it. In fact, if they had done that impeachment would have been highly unlikely. It was asking a foreign entity for personal political assistance which is indeed a campaign contribution forbidden by law. Not that impeachment needs a crime. The President's actions in withholding aid need not be criminal to be impeachable, though doing it to smear a political rival is despicable. You seem to be making excuses for an Imperial Presidency with complete disregard for legislation passed by congress and signed into law.

Pardon accepted, thank you. And now you have hit the nail on the head with this; and additionally affirmed the tribe you are in. Impeachment is 100% political. It does not require any crime at all. Impeachment is exactly and precisely what Nancy Pelosi has the votes for. Nothing more and nothing less. A campaign matter may exist outside the cut off of aid, but since there was no investigation nobody knows. The president has the right/duty to cut aid in case of corruption.

What you repeatedly miss is that I am anti trump and have stated he has committed actions which should have led to his impeachment. Instead the house grabbed extra ordinarily stupid non crimes that moved nobody from partisan politics outside the weak minded, equally lying Romney who if taken at face value voted to impeach on things totally unrelated to the evidence.

Again, make a time line. Obama threatened and could have cut aid for corruption. That is pre Trump and corruption existed through the transition and obviously Trump believed there was corruption. Whether you believe Trump had pretext has no impact. He had the right, exactly as Obama. Ancillary matters do not control. Exactly as Trump does with WHO. You have not addressed this. Clearly you won't because it impacts the tribe but I appreciate your research and effort.

At the risk of boring people let me provide an example. Trump was impeached for not complying with house discover requests. Impeding them, defying them. In fact he did not comply. He did defy. And in a 100% political move Pelosi impeached Trump because she had the votes. And in a surprise to exactly nobody the Senate let him off. It did not matter if Trump offered no defense, he wins. A bad bad defense (as he did), he wins. A brilliant defense, he wins. Or a defense designed to enhance his re-election chances and humiliate Biden (he did not do this), he wins.

So take impeachment out. go back to law and order that the rest of us have to live with. Take a hypothetical. Find a friend or relative who is an attorney who goes to trial. A real attorney not traffic court or corporate. Ask the following:

1. You sue someone.
2. You issue subpoena's.
3. the defendant defies you, refuses to comply.
4. You go to trial and start.
5. You tell the judge the defendants refused to comply and now the judge has to issue the subpoenas.
Your result?

You lose the case and your attorney is undoubtedly reported for malpractice and gets a written reprimand and short suspension. This is nearly exactly what the house impeachment article was except in some cases the house did not bother to issue the original subpoena or withdrew it.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

I remember that exchange and my jaw dropping. It’s not that I was convinced Sanders was telling the truth, but there was no evidence one way or the other. Yet the moderator assumed Warren’s accusation was the truth and completely ignored Sanders’ protestation that he’d never said it. Stunning.

Yes they did do that too and really talked about candidates also in a way that looked like they were biased and were pushing certain person or persons above others which is why I say don't watch any of them.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

Fake News.

https://www.thewrap.com/cnn-pro-trump-commentators-troubles-lewandowski-jeffrey-lord-jason-miller/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cnn-appears-have-benched-two-pro-trump-contributors-1232262
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cnn-cuts-ties-two-more-pro-trump-contributors-1182341
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainme...ump-network-they-openly-despise-conservatives

The most dangerous thing you can do is say this is Fake news and then ignore Fox fake news. If you hate CNN then don't watch any of the cable infotainment opinion infotainment news shows. I also won't go into which ones are worse and yes some are worse than others but the thought that CNN is fake news is used in a very very dangerous way while stating Fox is not.

 

[TLSnell1981]

The most dangerous thing you can do is say this is Fake news and then ignore Fox fake news. If you hate CNN then don't watch any of the cable infotainment opinion infotainment news shows. I also won't go into which ones are worse and yes some are worse than others but the thought that CNN is fake news is used in a very very dangerous way while stating Fox is not.

Jeff Zucker ruined that network with his personal agenda YEARS AGO!!!

 

[shelemm]

Jeff Zucker ruined that network with his personal agenda YEARS AGO!!!

CNN follows the big stories.

 

[shelemm]

Pardon accepted, thank you. And now you have hit the nail on the head with this; and additionally affirmed the tribe you are in.

One of the great truisms we are facing is that you don't have to be in any tribe to have things in common. For example, even though I am unabashadly Progressive, my ideas are shared by a plethora of hard-core Republicans, evangelicals, and MOR folks. We can all tell the difference between illegal (against the law) and criminal (you can be thrown in jail). I stand for Equal Justice Under Law. By equating Obama and Trump you are making a highly political statement even if you profess not to.