Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Bearval]

I'll bet you are physically shipping a product and/or have card present transactions. Those are easy for a merchant to win.

But, I refuse to believe your assertion of zero. Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.

I sell electronic goods in real time, never see a physical card, don't have a verifiable signature, and no way to verify the email address used is that of the card holder. I.e., impossible to win a chargeback.

In David's situation, he has sold a reservation that hasn't been delivered. He will likely lose chargeback disputes due to non-delivery of a purchased product, regardless of the "no refunds" policy.

IMHO Davids will lose the charge backs due to the ambiguity in the contract language, the no-refunds policy for the renter has to do if they fail to meet their obligations and they clearly did not. If the language was clear he would have changed it for all new reservations going forward. I believe the rents will have to wait until their date of arrival has past the ask Davids for a refund then if not refund is given (voucher is not a refund) then they can submit the chargeback.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I'll bet you are physically shipping a product and/or have card present transactions. Those are easy for a merchant to win.

But, I refuse to believe your assertion of zero. Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.

I sell electronic goods in real time, never see a physical card, don't have a verifiable signature, and no way to verify the email address used is that of the card holder. I.e., impossible to win a chargeback.

In David's situation, he has sold a reservation that hasn't been delivered. He will likely lose chargeback disputes due to non-delivery of a purchased product, regardless of the "no refunds" policy.

Sorry I misread your previous post. Yes we provide in person tourism services so the majority of our transactions are done in person. From time to time we process over the phone. In Canada, chip technology has actually been common place for probably well over 10 years now, so the volume of Canadians with chargebacks is limited. We do get many Americans though who didn't have chips for the longest time.

So the we actually have very few chargebacks. The odd time we do have one, we have signed and dated documentation from the customer indicating that they personally received the service. This is why we have never (atleast since I have been in my role) had a successful chargeback against us.

 

[Sandisw]

Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?

Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!

Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?

How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?

If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?

There is a post in this thread where they received an email from Davids stating that a cash reservation through Disney will be charged rack rate, The renter inquired and posted the response here,

So, we have a confirmed report that is his plan. Here it is:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...rsement-or-rescheduling.3796922/post-61841274

 

[CanadaDisney05]

There is a post in this thread where they received an email from Davids stating that a cash reservation through Disney will be charged rack rate, The renter inquired and posted the response here,

So, we have a confirmed report that is his plan. Here it is:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...rsement-or-rescheduling.3796922/post-61841274

Reading that response, my interpretation is different. My interpretation is that whatever the rate is on the Disney website that day is what you get. What they are trying to say is that as a travel agent they don't get access to any "hidden discounts" that the average consumer can't find on the website. The use of the word "rack rate" is confusing.

 

[MIDisFan]

Reading that response, my interpretation is different. My interpretation is that whatever the rate is on the Disney website that day is what you get. What they are trying to say is that as a travel agent they don't get access to any "hidden discounts" that the average consumer can't find on the website. The use of the word "rack rate" is confusing.

Have to agree with that interpretation. They use the term rack rate but go on to say whatever the price is on the website is the price u pay. If there is a promotion that you have access to on the web site that would be what you pay. They just don't have any non published discounts available.

 

[Sandisw]

Reading that response, my interpretation is different. My interpretation is that whatever the rate is on the Disney website that day is what you get. What they are trying to say is that as a travel agent they don't get access to any "hidden discounts" that the average consumer can't find on the website. The use of the word "rack rate" is confusing.

Now you are playing with words, Rack rate is always full price. It has never been defined as anything different.

Again, feel free to keep defending Davids, You have that right, But, to try to say he doesn’t mean rack rate to mean rack rate? Now it’s just getting silly

 

[banzai75]

Terms used in the hotel industry to describe the cost to a customers that request accommodations for the same day without prior booking arrangements . The rack rate price tends to be more expensive than the rate that the customer could have received if he/she used a travel agency or third-party service. Rack rates can vary based on the day that the room is requested. For instance, the rack rate may be more expensive on weekends, which are usually high travel days.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/rack-rate.html

A hotel rack rate is the "published rate," or "the maximum a property charges for a room," according to Frommer's Travel Guides. It is sometimes quoted to potential customers over the phone, and it may be displayed on the room door. Either way, it's similar to the sticker price on a car: The only people likely to pay the rack rate are those who are unaware they can obtain a discount.

rack rate
Slang for rent at full asking price with only the minimal build-out or other allowances usually quoted to prospects. No concessions.

What is the meaning / definition of Rack Rate in the hospitality industry?
When it comes to setting prices for rooms, establishing the highest rate is important. This rate is called the Rack Rate, and it is from this maximum price that all other rates take their lead. But that is not to say that one Rack Rate will apply to every room in a hotel. No. With rack rate setting it is essential to apply a different rate to each room category, otherwise occupancy (and therefore revenue) could be adversely affected.

 

[SageG]

Have to agree with that interpretation. They use the term rack rate but go on to say whatever the price is on the website is the price u pay. If there is a promotion that you have access to on the web site that would be what you pay. They just don't have any non published discounts available.

Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount? My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).

I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate. I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation. If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Now you are playing with words, Rack rate is always full price. It has never been defined as anything different.

Again, feel free to keep defending Davids, You have that right, But, to try to say he doesn’t mean rack rate to mean rack rate? Now it’s just getting silly

So whatever the Disney site rates are at the time of booking is the price that would apply for you. We do not get any additional discounts by booking as an agent.

This looks like it was communicated in a quick email. This doesn't look like it came from a legal document where you have to analyze every word carefully. Someone probably just used the wrong word without checking it over. They used the term rack rate, but quickly followup clarifying that you pay whatever the published rate is on Disney's website at the time of booking.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying that I don't think that post was conclusive evidence that David is paying discounted prices to Disney, then charging the customer rack rate, in order to pocket the difference.

 

[Sandisw]

Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount? My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).

I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate. I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation. If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.

The voucher credit includes his commission. His statement regarding rack rate supports that he books at the lower rate to ensure he still gets that commission, Until I see someone post thst they qualified for any promotion being given, then I think his plan is to indeed charge full price on cash stays.

If not, he could have very easily allowed those with canceled trips to rebook using the free dining that was offered to all guests that had reservations canceled I find it interesting he did not seem to be allowing that. I wonder why?.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount? My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).

I agree with that. I don't think anybody is suggesting that David is the greatest travel agent in the world that would do anything to save his clients a few dollars. But the accusations here are that he is using the Covid situation to offer these vouchers which force clients to buy through him so that he can pay Disney discounted prices, then charging the clients rack rates in order to line his own pockets. There's a big difference between doing that vs just not dedicating the resources to constantly monitoring the Disney website to get the client the absolute best deal. Not everything is black and white. There is somewhere in between the two. It just doesn't fit the narrative here.

I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate. I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation. If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.

Does that even matter though? That has no effect on the renter or buyer. That is between him and Disney.

 

[SageG]

I agree with that. I don't think anybody is suggesting that David is the greatest travel agent in the world that would do anything to save his clients a few dollars. But the accusations here are that he is using the Covid situation to offer these vouchers which force clients to buy through him so that he can pay Disney discounted prices, then charging the clients rack rates in order to line his own pockets. There's a big difference between doing that vs just not dedicating the resources to constantly monitoring the Disney website to get the client the absolute best deal. Not everything is black and white. There is somewhere in between the two. It just doesn't fit the narrative here.



Does that even matter though? That has no effect on the renter or buyer. That is between him and Disney.

I absolutely think it matters as it would be interesting to understand his incentives and if they align with the voucher recipient. Here it is clear that they do not if the situation works the way I'm expecting that it will. I'm a renter, so I'm trying to determine if it makes sense to accept the new terms and conditions of the voucher program. As part of that assessment, I'm trying to determine the risks of misalignment of my interests with David's (as anyone should when considering a new contract) and this is a large one as far as cash bookings are concerned.

I'm sure David is being advised by lawyers now of exactly what he can and cannot say to try to save his business, which has led to a less than transparent process. The terms and conditions of the voucher that he offered me for my cancelled reservation could not have been written to be more slanted in his favor, so that coupled with the lack of transparency leaves me and everyone else to have to read into those terms and conditions what the worst possible outcome may be so we can determine if we want to accept that worst possible outcome as what might actually happen to us. You seem to be willing to give David the benefit of the doubt, which is probably driven by you not being an owner or a renter that is tangled up in this mess. I'm not willing to do the same as I must look out for what is best for myself just as you've mentioned you would expect everyone to do in this scenario.

 

[MIDisFan]

Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount? My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).

I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate. I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation. If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.

That's a good question and one that would need to be addressed in the terms of the voucher before I'd be willing to accept one. I'm not sure it would require a lot more resources than what it requires now if he has a separate department for travel. The problem would be addressing balances on vouchers that end up with a remaining balance if a discount comes out.

 

[3babiesmom]

At this point, I’d pay full rack rates if I was guaranteed a reservation!!! It’s the guarantee that I’m concerned about!!

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I absolutely think it matters as it would be interesting to understand his incentives and if they align with the voucher recipient. Here it is clear that they do not if the situation works the way I'm expecting that it will. I'm a renter, so I'm trying to determine if it makes sense to accept the new terms and conditions of the voucher program. As part of that assessment, I'm trying to determine the risks of misalignment of my interests with David's (as anyone should when considering a new contract) and this is a large one as far as cash bookings are concerned.

I'm sure David is being advised by lawyers now of exactly what he can and cannot say to try to save his business, which has led to a less than transparent process. The terms and conditions of the voucher that he offered me for my cancelled reservation could not have been written to be more slanted in his favor, so that coupled with the lack of transparency leaves me and everyone else to have to read into those terms and conditions what the worst possible outcome may be so we can determine if we want to accept that worst possible outcome as what might actually happen to us. You seem to be willing to give David the benefit of the doubt, which is probably driven by you not being an owner or a renter that is tangled up in this mess. I'm not willing to do the same as I must look out for what is best for myself just as you've mentioned you would expect everyone to do in this scenario.

I don't really disagree with anything your saying here. We all have to look out for our best interest and analyze the risk and compare it to our own risk tolerance.

Like you said, I'm really a neutral third party in this conversation. I find it interesting because unfortunately it's a bit of a dilemma for everyone. The likelihood that everyone comes out whole is pretty low. I am curious about how it all turns out though and hoping everyone gets made as whole as possible. I am not rooting against anyone here.

Maybe I am being a bit defensive of the business for no real reason other than the fact that in my point of view they are getting unfairly criticized in a public forum without representation, and based on very limited evidence. There has basically been a whole story being presented as fact here that they are forcing renters into accepting these vouchers so that they can sell them cash rooms at full rack rate while paying Disney discounted rates in order to pocket the difference. When the evidence was presented, it was a 3 line email where everyone is getting hung up on a single word that is clearly being used in the wrong context. It doesn't mean that everyone here is wrong, and David's is not doing what is being suggested, but I need a little bit more of concrete evidence before publicly shaming them.

 

[momincolorado]

Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount? My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).

The cash booking is subject to the voucher T&Cs, which clearly state that all sales are final, no modifications. So regardless of whether they truly meant “rack rates” or it was just a poor choice of words, it is clear that no discounts/promotions released subsequent to your booking would be applied. Furthermore, ref item #10 in the T&Cs, in the event of a second wave and resort closure, you would not be entitled to any re-booking or refund even though Disney would in fact refund David’s. Needless to say, this is NOT how travel agents normally operate. But it’s an amazing deal...for David!

 

[WDWEPCOT]

How’s that song go..,take the money and run ..,

 

[Kevin_W]

Since I just got my voucher offer, I emailed to clarify when and how I could use it. I'll post back here if/when I get an answer.

The cash booking is subject to the voucher T&Cs, which clearly state that all sales are final, no modifications. So regardless of whether they truly meant “rack rates” or it was just a poor choice of words, it is clear that no discounts/promotions released subsequent to your booking would be applied.

Furthermore, ref item #10 in the T&Cs, in the event of a second wave and resort closure, you would not be entitled to any re-booking or refund even though Disney would in fact refund David’s. Needless to say, this is NOT how travel agents normally operate. But it’s an amazing deal...for David!

The first part of that I'm actually fine with. If I buy a car for $$ and a month later the manufacturer discounts that car by $2000 I might wish I'd waited, but at the time I determined that the price I paid for the car was fair. Same for a hotel room.

I'm not okay with the second part, where if anything goes wrong my money evaporates into the broker's pocket.

 

[cmrdgrs]

<snip> in my point of view they are getting unfairly criticized in a public forum without representation, and based on very limited evidence. <...snip>

Welcome to the internet and the court of public opinion. Why do you think that David has fiercely defended his "reputation" for all these years? And in protecting his "reputation" he promoted "protection" that IMO was smoke and mirrors. The internet is a rough neighborhood sometimes. IMO I have to disagree. We do have "evidence" -- we have cancelled reservations, unhappy renters (and owners) and future travel vouchers being issued with terms that people don't like nor do they think the terms are 100% fair to the renters. We have zero evidence from David that he will actually stay in business. So, to say we don't have "evidence" is ridiculous.

I can't tell you the number of times I was unfairly criticized by David or a representative of David's for saying that I thought renting from a private owner was superior to renting from a broker. And as I stated earlier in this thread my renters all got repaid in full for cancelled reservations -- and David's renters? Yeah, to quote Hertz "not exactly"

I can't say I have any sympathy right now after how I was treated by him and/or his representatives. Karma sometimes has a way of coming back around I'm afraid.

 

[Dracula]

Since I just got my voucher offer, I emailed to clarify when and how I could use it. I'll post back here if/when I get an answer.


The first part of that I'm actually fine with. If I buy a car for $$ and a month later the manufacturer discounts that car by $2000 I might wish I'd waited, but at the time I determined that the price I paid for the car was fair. Same for a hotel room.

I'm not okay with the second part, where if anything goes wrong my money evaporates into the broker's pocket.

Nice example - but it makes a difference with a car because supposedly you took possession of a car when you paid for it, whereas in our case renters book rooms that would be occupied in the future. Typically, non-cancelable cruise, airfare and hotel reservations can be floated down to a lower price, when and if such a lower price becomes available; obviously there can be no price adjustment after the trip, or even when the reservation becomes non-refundable. Therefore it is hard to understand why David would refuse to float down the price to the better offer available from Disney, when all other travel agents are willing to do so. In any case, David should not treat voucher customers any different than regular cash customers, if he wants to maintain the perception (illusion?) that his vouchers hold real value.

I am curious, why would you rather accept a voucher with restrictions when you can have a credit card chargeback, and book again whenever, wherever you want?