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Coronavirus and DCL Megathread - Suspension of Departures for the fleet until early November. Booking only available from early December.

I think when we start testing and the number of cases goes up and the fatality rates go down people will start to relax about the whole thing. I'm not saying we won't have a pandemic, but we've had pandemics before without crashing the whole economy and destroying the travel industry. There was a lot of hysteria with the swine flu outbreak and then a month later the media was on to the next crisis.

I've read the difference with swine flu was both the fatality rate being higher AND how much more violently people were ill. It made it easier to notice and thus isolate those individuals (same with avian flu). There was also a lot of hysteria with Zika, but you don't hear too much about it anymore, even though it hasn't gone anywhere.

Edited to add that I have merged this thread with the ongoing thread about coronavirus which was also talking about the updated info in Florida.
 
If you wonder why some are buying into the media lead hype, here's some stats from the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm). In the US alone this flu season there have been between 18,000 - 46,000 flu related deaths which would be about 6 to 15 times the number of worldwide deaths due to corona. The per capita infection rates for corona in China - 0.0056% (80026 cases / pop of 1.437 B), in South Korea - 0.0085% (4335 case / pop of 51.27 M). The per capia infection rate for the flu in the US - 4.23% best case (14M/331M). That's orders of magnitude higher than corona.

I'm not saying don't be concerned but make sure that you are taking the time to understand the risk before you panic....

FYI ... I'm on the Magic in about two months. Plan on enjoying my cruise unless something changes.
Infection rate measured as this is a very poor measure. The virus has to reach everyone in the population before you can use this. Even in China, there are plenty of places where COVID-19 hasn't quite reached yet - while influenza has been there for ages.

The fatality rate of COVID-19, on the other hand, is about 50 times greater than that of influenza.
 
I know there is a lot of debate on these boards about how bad this thing is - this is a great article that a friend of mine who is a biology researcher posted. It puts a lot of the numbers into perspective with other diseases including flu, measles, smallpox, SARS etc. The takeaway I got out of it is that this is a middling disease. It's not as bad as SARS but spreading faster than SARS did, it's worse than Flu and spreading as fast if not faster than flu. But also remember that when relating it to flu you are talking about fairly small numbers. 10x or even 50x a tiny number is still a very small number relative to something like smallpox where 3x the CFR would make it as deadly as rabies. Likewise if it spread the same or 2-3x as much as the way measles does, there is pretty much no way you wouldn't get it. Usually how fast it spreads is inversely proportional to the CFR because if people are dying from it, they are not out and about spreading it around. If it's spreading quickly it is usually on the milder side of the scale.

So as I said, the numbers on this are kind of middling - worse than flu but remember flu numbers are really pretty low to start with on the scale of bad stuff that you can get... on a scale from "common cold" to "horrible" it is far far far closer to "common cold" than to "horrible." Take precautions, don't panic. It's not even the worst respiratory thing in recent memory.

https://www.popsci.com/story/health...7MK9rd4UjosTod0gsN-gBfYXYE6V-CherBgZNeEgWshwc
 
A Carnival ship that left yesterday from FL was supposed to go to Cozumel, Grand Cayman and Jamaica, but Jamaica and GC won’t let them dock so they’re doing Cozumel, Belize and Key West instead. This is from a page and the mom’s kids are on the ship. No report of anyone being sick, rather these areas are turning away ships. Should be interesting to see what the future holds.

So I wonder about the Fantasy - on a Western route and supposed to be in Cayman today? On the RPBC webcam there is a large ship pulling in now.
 


Infection rate measured as this is a very poor measure. The virus has to reach everyone in the population before you can use this. Even in China, there are plenty of places where COVID-19 hasn't quite reached yet - while influenza has been there for ages.

The fatality rate of COVID-19, on the other hand, is about 50 times greater than that of influenza.
You and I can disagree on per capita infection rates... I've always seen them as a good measure of risk... If I go to area x what is the chance that I might get y. Mortality rate on something really rare is also a bad measure too... ie Ebola has an incredibly high mortality rate but an insanely low per capita infection rate.... The odds of dying from Ebola because there are cases in a country is infinitesimally small. At the same time, going to western China where there are 0 reported cases of corona is probably safer than some areas of the US where there have been reported cases (like Chicago and the west coast).

BTW The per capita risk of dying from corona in China is 2 x 10^-6... in South Korea 5 x 10^-7. The per capita risk of dying from the seasonal flu in the US is between 1 x 10^-4 and 5 x 10^-5. In other words, the risk from dying from the flu because it is much more prevalent in the US is orders of magnitude higher than dying from corona in either China or South Korea, the two countries the CDC has published warnings about.

Honestly, you shouldn't make your decision based on what someone said on an internet message board any more than you should based on a newie that wants to make sure you come back for the next report (can you imagine if CNN, Fox News or MSNBC ran breaking news banners announcing every one of the 18,000 to 46,000 flu deaths this year how scared of the flu people would be?).

Do your own research and make your own risk assessment.
 
You and I can disagree on per capita infection rates... I've always seen them as a good measure of risk...

My biggest concern about the per-capita infection rates from China is.. frankly we don't know even what ballpark they might be in. For China to be quarantining entire cities, welding people into their apartment buildings, and essentially throwing their own economy into a tailspin, makes me pause and think "There are probably a few more people ill than reported, and the number of people killed by this is probably higher as well."

It could be that there are 10x the people infected in China, but the number of deaths is correct (which would actually be a good thing). Or, it could be that the number of infected is correct, and the number who have died is much higher (bad thing). Or it could be a combination of the two (my suspicion), but the truth is, we simply do not know. As the outside-of-china outbreaks start to progress over the coming weeks, I think we'll get a much clearer picture of how easily it spreads, and how bad it is for various age groups.

Unfortunately, when there is uncertainty, especially when mortality is involved, society tends not to act rationally. I think we are seeing this in the two extreme claims that are being touted over and over again. Either this bug is the coming apocalypse, and very fabric of society is going to break down (not likely), or it is no worse than the common cold, and the whole thing is propaganda meant to keep people afraid (also not likely). In reality, this bug appears to be of significance, that has the potential to cause some major issues globally (especially for older people). It also doesn't appear to be the end of the world- the sky isn't falling.

tl;dr; it is my opinion that we should be "concerned" about COVID-19, and act appropriately with attempts to contain/slow its growth, and then mitigate the eventual failure of that containment.
 


BTW The per capita risk of dying from corona in China is 2 x 10^-6... in South Korea 5 x 10^-7. The per capita risk of dying from the seasonal flu in the US is between 1 x 10^-4 and 5 x 10^-5. In other words, the risk from dying from the flu because it is much more prevalent in the US is orders of magnitude higher than dying from corona in either China or South Korea, the two countries the CDC has published warnings about.
Being a statistician, this is what is so interesting as the numbers play out. CFR in Iran (if you believe their numbers) is around 5%, in China and Italy, it seems closer to 2-3%, however, in South Korea, the numbers are close to 0.5%. Why the difference?

This is just my thoughts. Either (1), South Korea is doing a much better job of testing everyone and thus has a better handle on what the true incidence rate is in the population, or (2), where the outbreak occurs (in Italy, the hospital in Codogno - and, I fear, in Washington State, the Nursing Home) can affect deaths. In South Korea, the outbreak was in a large church, but you wouldn't have too many compromised people there. In Italy, when the PM said "Protocols in the Hospital weren't followed", I wonder if care givers in the hospital went from the original case into places like the ICU, etc, which would be really bad...

Again, no basis for this, but I think that there are a lot of factors at play in terms of what the CFR is until we see this play out. For H1N1, the original CFR estimates turned out to be way higher than what they really were. I think that it's almost like a "fog of war" that since we are in the middle of it, we don't have a true sense of what's going on. For all we know, it may have been circulating even here for awhile and a lot of people could have had it, but if it were mild, it may never have been picked up. I just don't think we have a handle on the true population that has been exposed...
 
My son and I are supposed to fly to Tampa on Thursday to visit my parents and my grandmother (who is in an assisted living place). I've been going back and forth about whether or not we should cancel for days now. I've had open heart surgery to correct a defect, have a small right lung, and have asthma. I know the odds of getting this virus are extremely low, but my risk is pretty high if I do. I have until tomorrow night to cancel and get my Southwest points back, so I'm watching what's happening in Tampa pretty closely. I saw this in an article this morning:

“The flu is a virus we’ve known and studied for a long time. There is treatment, like Tamiflu and a preventative vaccine. We don’t know enough about the coronavirus yet, which is why we’re taking this so seriously,” said Dr. Nishant Anand, the chief medical officer of the BayCare health system.

This is what scares me the most. And this is how I feel when people compare it to the flu.

Oh, and we're just going to wait out our cruise to the British Isles in June. I don't want to cancel that (yet)
 
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@tidefan I definitely agree that there are a number of factors in play for expected outcomes... Quality of healthcare system, patient demographic and diagnosis speed all seem to be factors currently...
 
You and I can disagree on per capita infection rates... I've always seen them as a good measure of risk... If I go to area x what is the chance that I might get y. Mortality rate on something really rare is also a bad measure too... ie Ebola has an incredibly high mortality rate but an insanely low per capita infection rate.... The odds of dying from Ebola because there are cases in a country is infinitesimally small. At the same time, going to western China where there are 0 reported cases of corona is probably safer than some areas of the US where there have been reported cases (like Chicago and the west coast).

BTW The per capita risk of dying from corona in China is 2 x 10^-6... in South Korea 5 x 10^-7. The per capita risk of dying from the seasonal flu in the US is between 1 x 10^-4 and 5 x 10^-5. In other words, the risk from dying from the flu because it is much more prevalent in the US is orders of magnitude higher than dying from corona in either China or South Korea, the two countries the CDC has published warnings about.

Honestly, you shouldn't make your decision based on what someone said on an internet message board any more than you should based on a newie that wants to make sure you come back for the next report (can you imagine if CNN, Fox News or MSNBC ran breaking news banners announcing every one of the 18,000 to 46,000 flu deaths this year how scared of the flu people would be?).

Do your own research and make your own risk assessment.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that we are in the early stages of geometric progression of exposure for C-19 and at steady state for influenza. Obviously, comparing the per capita infection rates at this point in time is a useless predictor of what will happen in the future.
 
tl;dr; it is my opinion that we should be "concerned" about COVID-19, and act appropriately with attempts to contain/slow its growth, and then mitigate the eventual failure of that containment.

I think right now containment is key as it buys time to clear the resources of flu patients needing respiratory support. The hospitals are already dealing with a surge, historically February is peak hospitalization time for flu. The closer we can get to April before surging the hospitals with coronavirus, the better.
 
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So I wonder about the Fantasy - on a Western route and supposed to be in Cayman today? On the RPBC webcam there is a large ship pulling in now.
Just saw on Vessel Finder that the Fantasy
So I wonder about the Fantasy - on a Western route and supposed to be in Cayman today? On the RPBC webcam there is a large ship pulling in now.

So the Fantasy is at Cayman now per Vessel Finder
 

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