A solution to walking?

So instead of condemning walkers, one needs to recognize that the "modern DVC" and its sales practices is what needs to change.
I would change this point slightly to reflect that it is not walkers who are condemned but the practice itself.

I agree with your points about certain sales practices exacerbating the situation but since there is no practical way to unsell points, it really should fall primarily on DVC to insure fair and equitable booking systems and not place the burden on the membership to deal with those shortcomings.
 
I would change this point slightly to reflect that it is not walkers who are condemned but the practice itself.

I agree with your points about certain sales practices exacerbating the situation but since there is no practical way to unsell points, it really should fall primarily on DVC to insure fair and equitable booking systems and not place the burden on the membership to deal with those shortcomings.
The current system is fair and equitable, everyone has the same chances.
Most of the "solutions" I've read favour people who can book a lot of nights. I'm quite surprised when I read reasoning that it's better because fewer people can do it.
Call me socialist if you want, but I don't like a system that favors the (point) richest.
This is said by someone who normally books 2 weeks at a time and is usually in banking mode, meaning I could easily book nearly a month, if I want. I would be one of those who could gain from an unfair system.
 
A little over ten years ago, there was seldom any walking because there was no need to do so. BWV standard view studios (and with studios I include the 2BRs of a lock-off which disappear if the studio is reserved) and sometimes the BWV GVs had an 11-month reservation issue during some days in the first two weeks of Dec and during Christmas week, mainly around NYE. It was rare for BWV boardwalk view studios to have an issue. AKV club level studios (only 5) and OKW GVs in the Hospitality House booking category (only 2) had the issue more often but with so few rooms in the booking category, the problem could not be prevented and there is no cure for those types of rooms regardless of what anyone suggests should be done. AKV value had no 11-month issue at the time.

Beginning a little over ten years ago, the 11-month issue started to get worse and continued to get worse and worse every year thereafter. AKV club level and value studios now have the issue almost year round, BWV standard studios throughout the fall season and about half the rest of the year, BWV boardwalk studios during much of the fall, BLT standard studios often have the issue in fall and sometimes during the rest of the year, VGF studios have the issue some times in the fall but seldom during the rest of the year. The CCV studios have developed the issue for the fall and significant parts of the rest of the year. Riviera Tower and standard studios have the issue at times in the fall and once in a while at other times.

So what is the cause and what is the solution. Many apparently believe that cause is walkers and the solution is kill the walkers by creating reservation restrictions that would cause harm to many members who need to make modifications, and would favor those with more points than others in being able to get a reservation. It is even suggested that new purchasers should be told that walking may prevent them from getting a studio reservation at 11-months out if DVC does nothing to stop walking.

DVD is not going to tell new purchasers that walking is a problem that is causing members to be unable to book studios at 11-months out. Walkers exist as a response to an 11-month problem that was mainly created by another and unless that other ceases what it has been doing for ten years, the problem will not be solved, and will continue to get worse even if, as some apparently desire, you kill all the walkers.

The "other" I am speaking of is DVD. A little over ten years ago, during the Great Recession, it took its first step that began the oversell, albeit legally, of studios. It lowered the minimum for new purchasers from 160 points to 100 points and at times 75 and 50, minimums that still get used today. Moreover, it began its process of limiting the rights and privileges of resale purchasers, something it would use to entice more to buy from it than resale. Then despite the Great Recession, and beginning in Dec 2010 when BLT was essentially sold out, it began a process of raising purchase prices well beyond anything related to inflation. Over a little more than 2 years, the price of BLT increased from $120 a point to $165; AKV, still not sold out, was raised from $112 to $145 during the same period. Inflation was practically nonexistent and wages were stagnant, a situation that continued to almost the end of the decade.

But in May 2013, the reason for such significant raises in price in only two years became apparent. DVD began selling VGF at $145 a point for a short period to members and then $150 a point when sales began for new purchasers. That $165 a point high price for a long sold-out BLT was used to make purchasers think they were getting a bargain with VGF because they did not know prices had been increased 40% for a sold-out resort in a little over two years. Moreover, the price by itself was not an accurate comparison. VGF came with much higher nightly point costs than BLT, effectively making it more expensive than even the $165 a point then being charged for BLT.

The plan worked and VGF sales were very good except for one new factor. The stagnant economy, the low point purchase requirements, the high price per point, and high points needed per night, resulted in a larger percentage than normal of purchasers who bought only enough points to be able to get studios. It was not long before VGF developed an 11-month issue during times in the fall season for studios.

When Poly was introduced, prices increased again, and point per night requirements remained very high, although an 11-month issue was mostly avoided because of the huge number of studios. Nevertheless, DVD still effectively oversold studios by adding a lot of high-point bungalows (for which to purchase enough points for a week cost "only" about $220,000) and thus was able to sell a lot more points to those who could purchase enough points only to get studios. Prices for CCV were also high, but it did not have hundreds of studios like Poly, but did have a large number of high-point cabins, and for a long time a minimum point purchase of 75 points, allowing DVD to again oversell points to those who could buy only enough points for less costly rooms, particularly studios. The result, now that CCV is mostly sold out, is that its studios have an 11-month issue during much of the fall period and during many times the rest of the year.

Then came Riviera, with a point structure way higher than BWV, a resort with comparable location and number of rooms. But it had a minimum number of lower cost Tower studios and limited number of standard studios at points just low enough to entice many to buy though they could not purchase enough points for larger rooms. It now has an 11-month issue for Tower studios and at least standard studios during parts of the fall and once in a while during other times of year.

Not satisfied with overselling studios in the newer resorts, DVD continued to add restrictions to resale purchasers, taking away all rights to any discounts in 2015 and finally taking away even the ability to reserve a new resort despite that the applicable POS documents for the non-Riviera resorts provided that both new and resale purchasers of the older resorts had the right to reserve any DVC Resort, including those added in the future. Meanwhile, it also continuously raised the price of the older resorts during that 2010 to 2020 period to the point that prices on near park resorts like BWV, BLT, and BCV have been raised in excess of 100%. With such high prices, DVD needed the lower point minimums to keep selling more points to new purchasers, which points were re-acquired by DVD through foreclosures or exercising the right of first refusal, and it also added another selling point to entice new purchasers to buy the points needed to get studios at those resorts -- it turned BWV, BCV and BRV studios into rooms that allowed and slept 5 rather than 4.

Net effect of the DVD actions over the last ten years is that a number of studios now have an 11-month issue. And it is apparent that nothing is being done to change DVD's sales practices, e.g., though it may not be built now because of Covid, the plan to add Reflections included that it too would have a bunch of expensive cabins, thus allowing it a lot of extra points to sell in the low point minimum ranges to those purchasing enough points to get studios.

DVD and DVC actually came up with an anti-member solution to fix the oversell-of-studios problem. In late 2018, it issued new point charts for 2020 that essentially raised the points needed year-round to reserve studios and 1BRs (rooms that usually have the lowest demand and thus need no raising of points). It did back off that plan as a result of member complaints, but continued to assert it had the right to do it. It then did a point shift it could legally do -- moving points for each type room from the high demand fall season to other lower-demand times of year.

But one needs to understand that those kinds of moves are only temporary fixes. A permanent fix cannot occur if DVD continues its same sales practices of continuously raising prices well beyond anything resembling inflation, continuously increasing the points needed per night for new resorts, adding ridiculously expensive specialty rooms that cost a fortune but allow more points to be sold, and maintaining too low minimum-point-requirements, which combined actions increase the percentage of buyers who purchase only enough points to get studios, and then DVD does not alleviate the problem by building a lot more studios than other rooms.

So instead of condemning walkers, one needs to recognize that the "modern DVC" and its sales practices is what needs to change.

One should also note that members continuously demanding that DVC do something to supposedly correct a problem will usually result in it doing something that is least costly to it that no one likes. For example, rather than doing some costly program changes and trying to keep track of whether members are walking, DVC, if it wanted to end walking would most likely do something much simpler that no members could assert was improper. All DVC would need to do is return to the reservation rule it had before June 2008 when the rule was that you could reserve 11 (for home resort) or 7 (for other resorts) months out from your date of departure from the DVC Resort.

That rule made it impossible for anyone to "walk" a reservation by getting an arrival date that preceded the member's actual desired arrival date. However, the later your departure date, the greater the chance someone could take some of the dates needed before you could reserve them. As a result, some members actually did for some rooms (mainly hard-to-get GVs during those December times) do a different form of walking but one that did not involve booking any date that the member did not really want. Members would book a reservation day by day, first reserving the desired arrival date Then, the next day, the member would reserve the second day wanted, and continuing to do that daily until all desired days were reserved and then have MS merge the reservations into one. That "walking" method had one obvious disadvantage. The competition was exactly the same for each attempted reservation day, e.g., when trying to get the second day any other member could reserve the same room for the day by getting his reservation in first in the morning. That made little difference back before June 2008 because there was seldom any real problem reserving any room even at 11 months from date of departure. But to end the modern form of walking, DVC could easily just revert to that old system. Since there is more competition for a number of studios these days, few would likely be happy with the system when seeking harder-to-get studios, i.e., there is a decent chance that no one would ever get the total reservation time desired for a hard-to-get studio like AKV value or BWV standard during the high demand fall season.

But if members complain long and loud enough, don't be surprised if you see that reservation system resurrected.
Thank you for this. I agree with every point you make, including that any “solution” DVC would implement would be to the disadvantage of many members - and wouldn’t solve the basic problem of limited supply/excessive demand.
 
The current system is fair and equitable, everyone has the same chances.
A system that allows members to block rooms and dates they have no intention of using from other members who want to use them is not equitable and is not fair.

The large point owner argument is not all that valuable since it's extremely unlikely that these points are all at one resort. A one-thousand point owner with contracts at 3 or 4 different resorts would have no more advantage than a moderate point owner would when it comes to 11-month bookings at a specific resort.

I do understand your reticence to allow DVC to implement any changes given your experience with the lockoff premium fiasco (thank you for your efforts!) so I get it. However with such a really informed membership like we have here on these boards, I'm confidant we can persuade DVC to color within the lines if necessary.
 


A system that allows members to block rooms and dates they have no intention of using from other members who want to use them is not equitable and is not fair.

I cannot see how this argument has anything to do with walking.
I could book a room right now and keep it for a few days and then release it, there is no penalty for this. Maybe I'm still deciding when to go, maybe I want to try to book and rent a premium date, maybe I just want to do a trial run to be able to be the quickest when the 11 months window opens for the dates I really want.
If you don't like members to be able to book rooms they don't have intention to use, the only solution is to add a booking/cancellation fee. I would seriously dislike it, because one of the beauties of DVC is that it's so flexible and I can adjust my bookings if/when I need it (I often book before flight reservations open, so I have to adjust bookings from time to time).
A flexible reservation system is what we've bought into. What you would like to change is an important part of what I like in DVC.
 
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I cannot see how this argument has anything to do with walking.
I could book a room right now and keep it for a few days and then release it, there is no penalty for this. Maybe I'm still deciding when to go, maybe I want to try to book and rent a premium date, maybe I just want to do a trial run to be able to be the quickest when the 11 months window opens for the dates I really want.
If you don't like members to be able to book rooms they don't have intention to book, the only solution is to add a booking/cancellation fee. I would seriously dislike it, because one of the beauties of DVC is that it's so flexible and I can adjust my bookings if/when I need it (I often book before flight reservations open, so I have to adjust bookings from time to time).
A flexible reservation system is what we've bought into. What you would like to change is an important part of what I like in DVC.

No one against walking wants to see any of your examples stopped...or a fee added for any of those. Those are normal cancellations that any lodging entity will experience. But I don't think you can group those examples in the same category as someone who books a STD studio in August and walks it to December. All the examples of people who book, but change/cancel dates for whatever reason, all have a chance of the rooms actually being used and I think that's the difference. With walking, during the "walk" there is a 0% chance of the room being used by the booker 100% of the time. Unfortunately what rule to institute to allow the first set but block the second is the million dollar question.

Someone up thread said that ending walking doesn't magically make more hard to get categories available. While true, it does increase the odds of the people actually wanting to stay there of securing one. Someone trying to get a value studio at AKL in September isn't competing with someone wanting to stay there in October, November, December, or January.

Unfortunately, as someone against walking I don't think we'll ever get a fix for it...other than DVC seemingly breaking people's walks like has happened this year. There are too many smart people here who would have come up with a solution by now.
 
This discussion has come up every year about this time, ever since booking changed from check out to check in +7.** There is no new information or argument in this thread that hasn't been mentioned in past years, either.. :)

DVC doesn't care who gets the room. Since members can now modify online, walking has little to no impact on MS staffing. DVC has no incentive to change anything, especially since whatever they might choose to do will upset a portion of the Membership and perhaps even increase MS workloads.

** Before then, the discussions centered on day by day booking, the "precursor" to walking.
 


Someone up thread said that ending walking doesn't magically make more hard to get categories available. While true, it does increase the odds of the people actually wanting to stay there of securing one. Someone trying to get a value studio at AKL in September isn't competing with someone wanting to stay there in October, November, December, or January.

But I argue that it would not increase the chances of getting the room.
If there are 5 concierge studios, only 5 people can get them. Unless you create a lottery system, the 5 people who get them will be the most motivated, willing to put some form of extra effort.
Would you be ready to:
  • use an atomic clock to know when exactly to click on the book button?
  • do multiple trial runs in the day leading to the 11 months day to check if the Disney server is in synch with the atomic clock?
  • in the trial run, try to click a second or half a second before 8:00 sharp to compensate for latency?
People not willing to put the extra effort to walk a reservation will not put the extra effort to do all those steps to be the quickest.

By the way, someone walking a room, does not end staying in the room. Since those do not arrive as available at the 7 months window, someone else will book them, just a few days later when the walkers pass. Walkers just keep the reservation for a few days, just like someone booking more days than they need and then adjust. Actually, walkers keep the rooms for up to a week, others might wait months for the flights to be published.
 
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But I argue that it would not increase the chances of getting the room.
If there are 5 concierge studios, only 5 people can get them. Unless you create a lottery system, the 5 people who get them will be the most motivated, willing to do some form of extra effort.
Would you be ready to:
  • use an atomic clock to know when exactly to click on the book button?
  • do multiple trial runs in the day leading to the 11 months day to check if the Disney server is in synch with the atomic clock?
  • in the trial run, try to click a second or half a second before 8:00 sharp to compensate for latency?
People not willing to put the extra effort to walk a reservation will not put the extra effort to do all those steps to be the quickest.

By the way, someone walking a room, does not end staying in the room. Since those do not arrive as available at the 7 months window, someone else will book them, just a few days later when the walkers pass. What the walkers do it keep the reservation for a few days, just like someone booking more days than they need and then adjust. Actually, walkers keep the rooms for up to a week, others might wait months for the flights to be published.
How does eliminating the walkers NOT increase someone's chance? Let's say you have 20 families trying for those Club rooms Sept 12-19. Then another 20 families for each of following weeks until Xmas. Let's say 10% of the following 15 week's families are willing to walk. On the 11 month mark for the September 12th-19th you won't have 20 families trying to book, you will have around 35. 5/20 will always be better odds than 5/35. If you have a way of making 14% odds better than 25% odds let me know. If people who want to stay during my dates want to use an atomic clock...more power to them. I'm fine losing out to someone who wants to stay there during my week. Some people will always be faster. But losing out to someone wanting to save 3 points a night in January irks me.

I understand the whole argument that walkers walk on by and people pick up the nights. I even love the way some walkers can almost make the argument they are helping people looking for those rooms....as others get to pick up their dropped rooms. Sorry if I'm not overly appreciative. As someone who owns at BLT and BWV, I appreciate the options of getting the standard view points savings. But honestly, I'd rather know at the 11 month mark if I got it or not. If not, I'm fine booking LV/garden-pool view. Picking up a day here, then missing the next, then getting the third and so on creates such a hassle and stress. But I understand people will want or need to save those points and will do anything they can to acquire them. Congrats i guess.
 
How does eliminating the walkers NOT increase someone's chance? Let's say you have 20 families trying for those Club rooms Sept 12-19. Then another 20 families for each of following weeks until Xmas. Let's say 10% of the following 15 week's families are willing to walk. On the 11 month mark for the September 12th-19th you won't have 20 families trying to book, you will have around 35. 5/20 will always be better odds than 5/35. If you have a way of making 14% odds better than 25% odds let me know. If people who want to stay during my dates want to use an atomic clock...more power to them. I'm fine losing out to someone who wants to stay there during my week. Some people will always be faster. But losing out to someone wanting to save 3 points a night in January irks me.

I understand the whole argument that walkers walk on by and people pick up the nights. I even love the way some walkers can almost make the argument they are helping people looking for those rooms....as others get to pick up their dropped rooms. Sorry if I'm not overly appreciative. As someone who owns at BLT and BWV, I appreciate the options of getting the standard view points savings. But honestly, I'd rather know at the 11 month mark if I got it or not. If not, I'm fine booking LV/garden-pool view. Picking up a day here, then missing the next, then getting the third and so on creates such a hassle and stress. But I understand people will want or need to save those points and will do anything they can to acquire them. Congrats i guess.
Because the 15 walkers won't keep the rooms. After the walk passes, someone will take it. At the end, 5 of the 20 families will get the 5 concierge rooms.
If among those 20 families, there are 5 willing to walk and begin the walk earlier than those walking to December, they'll get it.
Still only 5 families will get the rooms and it will be the families willing to put some effort into it. It might be walking, it might be stalking tocollect the droppings, it could be one night waitlisters who then merge the reservations, it could be people with atomic clocks and super fast computers with gigabits internet connections.

The problem is not walkers, is that the demand is so much greater then availability. if 20 families want the same 5 rooms, 15 will be unhappy. Don't blame people who try to get around the problem with the tools they have, blame who has created the problem.
The concierge rooms are a very extreme example, but Drusba's post explains why other categories may be affected at peak times. It's not walkers who create the problem, it's DVC.
 
Unfortunately what rule to institute to allow the first set but block the second is the million dollar question.
Exactly. It’s like wanting to reduce or stop renting - there’s no way DVC can tell whether the member’s guest is a family member/friend or a renter. So as drusba and others have pointed out, the “cure” for walking would likely be worse for the majority of members than the “disease” is.
 
Because the 15 walkers won't keep the rooms. After the walk passes, someone will take it. At the end, 5 of the 20 families will get the 5 concierge rooms.
If among those 20 families, there are 5 willing to walk and begin the walk earlier than those walking to December, they'll get it.
Still only 5 families will get the rooms and it will be the families willing to put some effort into it. It might be walking, it might be stalking tocollect the droppings, it could be one night waitlisters who then merge the reservations, it could be people with atomic clocks and super fast computers with gigabits internet connections.

The problem is not walkers, is that the demand is so much greater then availability. if 20 families want the same 5 rooms, 15 will be unhappy. Don't blame people who try to get around the problem with the tools they have, blame who has created the problem.
The concierge rooms are a very extreme example, but Drusba's post explains why other categories may be affected at peak times. It's not walkers who create the problem, it's DVC.

If walkers were to drop a week at a time and one family could pick up a whole week I'd agree it would be less of an issue. But some drop a day at a time and some a week at a time. If someone is looking for a week and picks up a Saturday, Tuesday, and Thursday...how is that helpful? The answer is it is not. In fact it's worse as it keeps points tied up that could go towards dropping the sporadic nights and just booking the higher category.

The problem IS walkers. And I do blame the people who use the tools they have, because those tools CAUSE the problem. I think most here can swallow not getting one of those 5 rooms knowing people who want to stay there got it.

People can't blame DVC for the issue and at the same time argue there is no way for DVC to fix it.

I would respect walkers more if they just came out and owned the fact they don't care about anyone or anything other than securing their room anyway possible. Just say you don't care that you are taking a room away from someone who wants it when you really don't. At least then we can have an honest discussion.
 
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Exactly. It’s like wanting to reduce or stop renting - there’s no way DVC can tell whether the member’s guest is a family member/friend or a renter. So as drusba and others have pointed out, the “cure” for walking would likely be worse for the majority of members than the “disease” is.
Renting is allowed. I don't have any issue with renting and don't think many against walking are against renting....but I could be wrong.
 
Renting is allowed. I don't have any issue with renting and don't think many against walking are against renting....but I could be wrong.
The point is that many blame lack of availability on renting as well as on walking. And that there’s no easy solution to either one that wouldn’t adversely affect other members who don’t engage in either renting or walking.
 
The point is that many blame lack of availability on renting as well as on walking. And that there’s no easy solution to either one that wouldn’t adversely affect other members who don’t engage in either renting or walking.
I appreciate your point. I look at the difference is at least the rented dates booked are being used versus walking dates are not. I've never been on either side of renting, but would be opposed to ending that. It helps people get value out of unused points or people in a financial rough patch keep/afford their membership. It also allows non DVC people get a taste.

I'm resigned to the fact that DVC more than
likely will not do an official response to walking. I honestly would rather see disboards not allow threads on walking....but considering several moderators seem to be on board I'm not holding my breath.

This year we've seen reports of people walking BLT lake view. If we get to the point people are so uninformed they are walking that I think it's only a matter of time before more and more people walk.
 
I appreciate your point. I look at the difference is at least the rented dates booked are being used versus walking dates are not. I've never been on either side of renting, but would be opposed to ending that. It helps people get value out of unused points or people in a financial rough patch keep/afford their membership. It also allows non DVC people get a taste.

I'm resigned to the fact that DVC more than
likely will not do an official response to walking. I honestly would rather see disboards not allow threads on walking....but considering several moderators seem to be on board I'm not holding my breath.

This year we've seen reports of people walking BLT lake view. If we get to the point people are so uninformed they are walking that I think it's only a matter of time before more and more people walk.

I will raise my hand that I book a lot of rooms every year and hold them when I have no idea when I book if I will take the trip.

It is what I think is the best part of DVC. I have points to stay when I want, can book tentative dates, change, modify and cancel as long as it’s 31 days out.

As an owner, I am entitled to book a room as long as it is there, along with all the other resort owners. It’s what drew me to buying into DVC, knowing it’s all first come, first serve and sooooo flexible compared to other timeshares.

Now, if DVC institutes a penalty or fee for that, then I have to change how I do things or sell.

But, honestly, I do not think we should consider it selfish for any owner to use their points within the rules of the program and personally, as I said, walking to me is no different in terms of its effect on the system than what I do because I am keeping other owners from rooms until I decide to drop them.
 
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I appreciate your point. I look at the difference is at least the rented dates booked are being used versus walking dates are not. I've never been on either side of renting, but would be opposed to ending that. It helps people get value out of unused points or people in a financial rough patch keep/afford their membership. It also allows non DVC people get a taste.

I'm resigned to the fact that DVC more than
likely will not do an official response to walking. I honestly would rather see disboards not allow threads on walking....but considering several moderators seem to be on board I'm not holding my breath.

This year we've seen reports of people walking BLT lake view. If we get to the point people are so uninformed they are walking that I think it's only a matter of time before more and more people walk.
Walking has been discussed on the boards forever. There is no reason to close the threads or not permit them under our DISBoards guidelines, nor is it prohibited by DVC. In fact, it has been recommended in the past by DVC Member Services staff.

For the record, I am walking reservations for the first time, at OKW, but only because we are looking at Thanksgiving week next year in a very limited unit type. I am not a huge point owner, I have 345 points. And while walking at OKW is generally unnecessary, in this instance I need a Grand Villa with either ground floor entrance or an elevator building. One of the people going totally shattered their femur in a fall a few months ago, and if there were stairs, she could not go at all. There are only THREE of these units at OKW, all of them are Handicapped units. All the rest of the GVs have entrances on the 2nd floor, and require climbing a flight of stairs.

I'm sorry if you don't like it...I'm not wild about it myself...but there are instances that require it. Unless OKW were to add elevators to all buildings with GVs.
 
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