Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

Thanks for doing so. And I now realize how impossible it is for the clause to apply to first year only. Whenever a new resort opens you get, before it opens, the point chart for the year in which it opens and the point chart for the next year, and thus the earliest you could possibly have a maximum reallocation is the beginning of the third year. In other words, the first year claim is an assertion that the maximum reallocation clause is completely meaningless.

And their reply was NOT that the "maximum reallocation" is written because it's an actual thing that could / would happen if they removed all seasons and made every room the same cost every night of the year....?

But rather it had to do with setting up (calculating) the points charts....?

Hmmm....

Ok. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Please. :laughing:
 
And their reply was NOT that the "maximum reallocation" is written because it's an actual thing that could / would happen if they removed all seasons and made every room the same cost every night of the year....?

But rather it had to do with setting up (calculating) the points charts....?

Hmmm....

Ok. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Please. :laughing:

Oh wait... The best part ...

(Paraphrasing)

Some of their marketing material might have kinda sorta (but probably not really) lead people to believe it was a max / average ...

:rotfl2:

Can anyone hear my roaring laughter? I'm sorry. I know it's kinda late...
 
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There is so much confusion over this issue. I would like it if Disney could issue a clarification of how they determined the 2020 points re-allocation. You would think someone at Disney could just clarify their rationale and calculations to shut up all this chatter and conspiracy theories.
 
Also it would be nice if the Guides would stop saying that DVC will reallocate evenly. They need to start saying that Studios and 1 BRs could go up without a proportionate decrease elsewhere since the reallocation is based on 2 BR lockoffs and DVC is allowed to have a LO premium. Then they can tell people they need to buy a cushion of 10-20% points. This would help sales since people would be buying more than they need right now.
 


Is there a place we can look up exactly what rooms comprise a specific unit?

The Condo Drawings on the OC website either describe or show where units are. In one or two cases it has the corresponding room numbers noted on them. VGF is one that I believe does. Otherwise it’s looking at the drawings and comparing to a map with room numbers.
 
Also it would be nice if the Guides would stop saying that DVC will reallocate evenly. They need to start saying that Studios and 1 BRs could go up without a proportionate decrease elsewhere since the reallocation is based on 2 BR lockoffs and DVC is allowed to have a LO premium. Then they can tell people they need to buy a cushion of 10-20% points. This would help sales since people would be buying more than they need right now.

I just listened to a voicemail I have saved from a guide from last April. At that point I knew I was buying resale, but I had done the phone tour for a gift card and asked the guide a few questions. I specifically asked about point reallocation, because that was the one hesitation I had when buying DVC, and he gave a very thorough explanation as well as examples of how points can be reallocated. Here were his examples - and he kept reiterating that total points for a resort cannot change. He really focused on DATES and HOLIDAYS and only once mentioned demand in regards to that weekend to weekday shift.
  • Leap years
  • movement of holidays like Easter
  • He gave an example of a week in April in a studio that would cost 105 points, but would change to 115 the following year when the weeks around Easter shifted.
  • He said for this reason if you want to travel around a fluid holiday like spring break, to look at how many points to buy, take your week and add 5 points
He also told the story of the weekend to weekday shift from back in the day, but as he explained it, they shifted points across all unit types from weekend to weekdays. It was never explained that they could shift points between unit types. It never occurred to me to ask based on his explanation and examples.

Things he never mentioned:
  • The lockoff premium (duh, why would he? that would have made me run like mad from DVC)
  • That points could be shuffled between unit types - maybe this is my own ignorance, but he knew my specific interest was a one bedroom at OKW, which he admitted is "generally very easy to book inside 7 months." He could have really swayed me had he told me that the least demanded units were able to lose points to the higher in-demand units since what I book most frequently is a low demand unit in a low demand DVC season.
I know it doesn't matter what the guides say really, because the truth is in the paperwork. If anything, at least I bought resale. :-)
 


I just listened to a voicemail I have saved from a guide from last April. At that point I knew I was buying resale, but I had done the phone tour for a gift card and asked the guide a few questions. I specifically asked about point reallocation, because that was the one hesitation I had when buying DVC, and he gave a very thorough explanation as well as examples of how points can be reallocated. Here were his examples - and he kept reiterating that total points for a resort cannot change. He really focused on DATES and HOLIDAYS and only once mentioned demand in regards to that weekend to weekday shift.
  • Leap years
  • movement of holidays like Easter
  • He gave an example of a week in April in a studio that would cost 105 points, but would change to 115 the following year when the weeks around Easter shifted.
  • He said for this reason if you want to travel around a fluid holiday like spring break, to look at how many points to buy, take your week and add 5 points
He also told the story of the weekend to weekday shift from back in the day, but as he explained it, they shifted points across all unit types from weekend to weekdays. It was never explained that they could shift points between unit types. It never occurred to me to ask based on his explanation and examples.

Things he never mentioned:
  • The lockoff premium (duh, why would he? that would have made me run like mad from DVC)
  • That points could be shuffled between unit types - maybe this is my own ignorance, but he knew my specific interest was a one bedroom at OKW, which he admitted is "generally very easy to book inside 7 months." He could have really swayed me had he told me that the least demanded units were able to lose points to the higher in-demand units since what I book most frequently is a low demand unit in a low demand DVC season.
I know it doesn't matter what the guides say really, because the truth is in the paperwork. If anything, at least I bought resale. :-)
Wow, keep that voicemail.
 
Wow, keep that voicemail.
Does it make any difference. I don't see anything as written that would suggest a representation these
were the only changes that could happen. I see no reason they could, would or should have brought up the lockoff premium or adjustments between units. WE already have examples of movement between units historically.
 
Does it make any difference. I don't see anything as written that would suggest a representation these were the only changes that could happen. I see no reason they could, would or should have brought up the lockoff premium or adjustments between units. WE already have examples of movement between units historically.

I agree - I was just sharing bc it's an example of what a guide has recently said when directly asked "can there be point reallocations." I remember the exact question I asked him. I said, "How do I know that my points today are what they'll be worth in the future? How/Can the charts change? Sure, I see what x amount of points will get me today. But how do I know that's what I'll get in ten years?" (Guess I should have said in two years! LOL) He said, "the short answer is, that the points can't change. That's the whole point of DVC - locking in your vacation costs, and knowing what they're going to be in the future." Then he went on to give me the "long answer."

They aren't giving any misinformation per say, they are just being as clear as they can without outright lying. That's what sales people, realtors, etc do. I just didn't ask the "right" questions I guess.
 
I agree - I was just sharing bc it's an example of what a guide has recently said when directly asked "can there be point reallocations." I remember the exact question I asked him. I said, "How do I know that my points today are what they'll be worth in the future? How/Can the charts change? Sure, I see what x amount of points will get me today. But how do I know that's what I'll get in ten years?" (Guess I should have said in two years! LOL) He said, "the short answer is, that the points can't change. That's the whole point of DVC - locking in your vacation costs, and knowing what they're going to be in the future." Then he went on to give me the "long answer."

They aren't giving any misinformation per say, they are just being as clear as they can without outright lying. That's what sales people, realtors, etc do. I just didn't ask the "right" questions I guess.
We've seen lots of examples where guides said things likely wouldn't change because of past issues doing so or at least that's what someone heard. True, their job is to sell and they are going to give you what you want to hear but within the "rules". The idea they should additionally look out for your best interest is simply unreasonable. If that were consistently done there would be zero timeshares anywhere.
 
DVC has provided the following explanations to me:
  1. The Maximum Reallocation language only applies in the first year a resort opens
    1. I disagree with this and find it strange it took a week for them to come up with this answer when I asked the question on if this was defining an average nightly rate (at maximum) for a given Vacation Home Type. They even admitted some material from marketing may have suggested as such but would need to verify it.

I also disagree with this. Either there was some misunderstanding on DVC's part or a miscommunication. There is nothing in the maximum reallocation language which would limit it to any timeframe.

That said, it's reasonable to assume DVC has no intention of EVER doing this. It would cause far more harm than good to both DVC and its members.

If it was truly intended for only the first year it would be phrased as such more clearly. As when I asked over 25+ years why it never was updated they implied it was for consistency across all resorts

Agree

In theory every use night, except 1, could go to whatever number they wanted as long as 1 use day is at the number described above. Always with the caveat the resort must be in balance as a whole

Still in agreement. It very explicitly says that members will be able to reserve "one Use Day" for the given rates. In some ways, this goes hand-in-hand with the idea of a Maximum Reallocation. If DVC were to flatten the point charts, and have stated that members can reserve at least 1 night in a Studio for 18 points, it stands to reason that EVERY night must be priced at 18 points.

But without a maximum reallocation, DVC would only seem bound to provide one night in a Studio for 18 points.

All of that said, I'm not really clear on why the Maximum Reallocation is a topic of conversation relative to the 2020 point charts. Nowhere does it state that the 18 points per night is an average. Again, the POS clearly says one Use Day for that rate. On the 2020 Copper Creek chart, Adventure season weekday studios are 16 points, Choice is 17 points and Dream is 18 points per night. The chart complies with that particular provision in the POS.
 
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I also disagree with this. Either there was some misunderstanding on DVC's part or a miscommunication. There is nothing in the maximum reallocation language which would limit it to any timeframe.

That said, it's reasonable to assume DVC has no intention of EVER doing this. It would cause far more harm than good to both DVC and its members.



Agree



Still in agreement. It very explicitly says that members will be able to reserve "one Use Day" for the given rates. In some ways, this goes hand-in-hand with the idea of a Maximum Reallocation. If DVC were to flatten the point charts, and have stated that members can reserve at least 1 night in a Studio for 18 points, it stands to reason that EVERY night must be priced at 18 points.

But without a maximum reallocation, DVC would seem bound to provide at least one night in a Studio for 18 points.

All of that said, I'm not really clear on why the Maximum Reallocation is a topic of conversation relative to the 2020 point charts. Nowhere does it state that the 18 points per night is an average. Again, the POS clearly says one Use Day for that rate. On the 2020 chart, Adventure season weekday studios are 16 points, Choice is 17 points and Dream is 18 points per night. The chart complies with that particular provision in the POS.
I think resorts with dedicated smaller villas provides some vicarious protection from big increases and there are some practical limits as well. In reality I do expect another change in the next few years, either next year or in about 5-7 years (or both). And possibly a return to higher weekends but not as high as before. This is the nature of the system, esp for DVC where there is a contractual mandate to even out demand.
 
I also disagree with this. Either there was some misunderstanding on DVC's part or a miscommunication. There is nothing in the maximum reallocation language which would limit it to any timeframe.

That said, it's reasonable to assume DVC has no intention of EVER doing this. It would cause far more harm than good to both DVC and its members.



Agree



Still in agreement. It very explicitly says that members will be able to reserve "one Use Day" for the given rates. In some ways, this goes hand-in-hand with the idea of a Maximum Reallocation. If DVC were to flatten the point charts, and have stated that members can reserve at least 1 night in a Studio for 18 points, it stands to reason that EVERY night must be priced at 18 points.

But without a maximum reallocation, DVC would only seem bound to provide one night in a Studio for 18 points.

All of that said, I'm not really clear on why the Maximum Reallocation is a topic of conversation relative to the 2020 point charts. Nowhere does it state that the 18 points per night is an average. Again, the POS clearly says one Use Day for that rate. On the 2020 Copper Creek chart, Adventure season weekday studios are 16 points, Choice is 17 points and Dream is 18 points per night. The chart complies with that particular provision in the POS.

It also talks of a flattening of the charts and if every day were the same then xx is what the points would be.
 
also disagree with this. Either there was some misunderstanding on DVC's part or a miscommunication. There is nothing in the maximum reallocation language which would limit it to any timeframe.
I don't believe there was miscommunication on DVC's part this is 100% their current interpretation as they specifically said this and I was speaking to the very person that makes the interpretation calls. This language is important because it in spirit is defining an average because an average by definition is treating variable you are looking across (use days) as constant.
All of that said, I'm not really clear on why the Maximum Reallocation is a topic of conversation relative to the 2020 point charts. Nowhere does it state that the 18 points per night is an average. Again, the POS clearly says one Use Day for that rate. On the 2020 Copper Creek chart, Adventure season weekday studios are 16 points, Choice is 17 points and Dream is 18 points per night. The chart complies with that particular provision in the POS.
As I stated in my post DVC did say that the right for one Use Day along with the maximum reallocation did define a maximum average nightly point cost for the rooms. However, they said that maximum average nightly point cost only applies in the first year a resort is open because the maximum reallocation only applies in the first year. Thus by their own admission it does apply that first year just not later.
 
Still in agreement. It very explicitly says that members will be able to reserve "one Use Day" for the given rates. In some ways, this goes hand-in-hand with the idea of a Maximum Reallocation. If DVC were to flatten the point charts, and have stated that members can reserve at least 1 night in a Studio for 18 points, it stands to reason that EVERY night must be priced at 18 points.

But without a maximum reallocation, DVC would only seem bound to provide one night in a Studio for 18 points.

All of that said, I'm not really clear on why the Maximum Reallocation is a topic of conversation relative to the 2020 point charts. Nowhere does it state that the 18 points per night is an average. Again, the POS clearly says one Use Day for that rate. On the 2020 Copper Creek chart, Adventure season weekday studios are 16 points, Choice is 17 points and Dream is 18 points per night. The chart complies with that particular provision in the POS.
I think you are missing my point on this issue. My point is the Maximum Reallocation is to define an upper limit on the worse case across seasons and nights to reserve a room. If this does not apply then DVC at it's sole discretion can charge anything they want as long as the changes year over year are capped at 20% (and entire resort is in balance). Also if you define 364 days to be say 40 points but 1 day to the X points dictated in the POS you either wrote the POS deliberately misleading or it is violating the spirit of what the original writer intended. But I believe to avoid this argument is exactly why DVC stated any of this language only applies the first year.
 
I think resorts with dedicated smaller villas provides some vicarious protection from big increases and there are some practical limits as well. In reality I do expect another change in the next few years, either next year or in about 5-7 years (or both). And possibly a return to higher weekends but not as high as before. This is the nature of the system, esp for DVC where there is a contractual mandate to even out demand.
I would suspect that we see another change next year then maybe a break from changes for 5 years or so. The only true practical limit that exists is setting all Vacation Home Types equal in point cost for every night. You define that nightly point cost to keep the resort in balance to the total number of points sold.
 
I don't believe there was miscommunication on DVC's part this is 100% their current interpretation as they specifically said this and I was speaking to the very person that makes the interpretation calls. This language is important because it in spirit is defining an average because an average by definition is treating variable you are looking across (use days) as constant.

As I stated in my post DVC did say that the right for one Use Day along with the maximum reallocation did define a maximum average nightly point cost for the rooms. However, they said that maximum average nightly point cost only applies in the first year a resort is open because the maximum reallocation only applies in the first year. Thus by their own admission it does apply that first year just not later.

I wasn't on the call so my ability to respond is limited. DVC likely has no intention of exercising the option to flatten the point charts, so that topic is somewhat moot.

But the passage about the minimum nightly cost reads very clearly to me. In no way does it imply that the 18 points per night is an average, rather it explicitly states that only a single night must be priced at that rate (or lower.)
 
Only the first year of resort being open apparently.

Oh yes, of course. Sorry, I forgot that.

But I had been thinking as I believe the Multi-site POS has those numbers for every single resort (I am out of town so don't have access to it right now) And that has been updated over and over. IF it was ever meant to be for the first year those first year charts are long gone for resorts such as OKW, VB, HHI. Even BLT, VGF and PVB. So, why then do those numbers still exist? Oh - because it wasn't just about the first year point chart establishment! :headache: And of course if that were the intention of those numbers it would have without a doubt stated it was applicable only for the first year. Without a doubt.

I am so very disappointed in that answer because now I do really believe it indicates that DVC is not followed things that they were required to and are reaching for bull cookie justifications to cover their hinnys.
 

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