Why is passenger rail service so useless for much of the US?

[kdonnel]

I was looking at options to get to Ft Lauderdale/Miami from Atlanta.

The four of us can fly for $450-$1500 depending on ultra low cost, low cost, or full cost airline.

I have always been interested in passenger rail. We have taken trains many times while in the UK and Europe. Often times finding the fare cheaper than flying and comparable to flying in travel time, just slightly longer.

Driving is 10.5 hours, not accounting for any stops. We really don't like driving more than 7-8 hours.

So I priced out Amtrak.

To take Amtrak we would have to leave 2 days early to account for the 42 hours 32 minute travel time from Atlanta to Ft Lauderdale. The return trip also takes 2 days with a travel time of 44 hours 25 minutes.

The total cost for the roundtrip is $1720 for four in coach. So more than flying which even accounting for driving to the airport, getting there early, and the flight, is under 5 hours.

I even tried having us drive to Savannah, GA to start and end our journey there to keep from having to ride to Virginia to get to Florida. That cuts a huge amount off the train travel time, 11 hours there 13 hours back, even adding in the 4.5 hours from our home to the Amtrak station in Savannah the total travel time is 16 - 18 hours. But the train times are really inconvenient, 4:37am or 6:49am departures are the only two options out of Savannah.

So again we would actually need to leave an extra day early to ensure an arrival on the date we want. The price is atleast closer to flying at $740.

Why are passenger rail options so horrible for so much of the US?

 

[bcla]

Depends on where you're going. I've actually used Amtrak (or specifically Amtrak California, which is a state supported entity that's affiliated with Amtrak) to get from the San Francisco Bay Area to Southern California although it involved buses every time on parts of the route. Amtrak itself runs a train once daily, but it's typically more expensive.

On Christmas Day 2022 I hit Southwest Airline's meltdown and booked Amtrak for the next day for $63 when there were absolutely zero airline options.

In other parts of the world, passenger rail is heavily subsidized and thus cheap. It's subsidized to some degree in the US but there's also the issue that we don't quite have the same density of rail and that the freight railroads that own most of the tracks would sooner have Amtrak go away and leave them alone.

 

[kanerf]

Except for the North East and a few other locations there are not enough passengers to keep Amtrak going. I often use the commuter rail in Virginia, the VRE, which uses the same tracks and it works well.

 

[Neapolitan Ice Cream]

In the UK, everywhere is closer to everywhere, making train travel a much more favourable proposition. Planes just don't work. In the past, just after privatisation, trains were naff. These days, most are very modern. I especially like the Midland Mainline/ex - Virgin "Pendolino" trains - VERY comfy, great amenities, fast, convenient and well appointed - they even pressurise the cabins so there's less wind resistance (or some other black magic!)

 

[bcla]

Except for the North East and a few other locations there are not enough passengers to keep Amtrak going. I often use the commuter rail in Virginia, the VRE, which uses the same tracks and it works well.

They're doing OK with the state-supported corridor routes like the Capitol Corridor, or Amtrak Cascades. Amtrak provides the personnel to run them but the equipment is often owned by the states and has its own markings although sometimes they run with Amtrak-owned equipment.

 

[soccerdad72]

Given the sheer amount of real estate it has to cover (and, as others have mentioned, limited population in much of that area), the government focused more of their infrastructure budget towards the highway system instead of rail.

 

[georgina]

unfortunately it was never a priority for most of the country. I remember when we lived in Cleveland my older sisters sometimes taking the train home from Chicago. My college student took Amtrak home to Pittsburgh from DC a few times, there were a lot of stops along the way.

 

[SteveMouse]

The US is big, and there has been little investment in high speed rail, let alone dedicated passenger rail throughout much of the country.

There are a couple of trains that go from South Florida to the Northeast daily Silver Star and Silver Meteor/Palmetto Express.

It takes about 3:15 for the Amtrak train to get from Fort Lauderdale to Orlando, almost the same
time as driving it. Another huge issue is transportation at either end. Many US urban areas are not easily navigable without a car, so if you took a train between cities. you still may have an issue (or expense) getting the last 20 miles, as opposed to driving.

Brightline goes quite a bit faster than Amtrak. Service is now offered between Miami and MCO. Disney hasn't permitted stations to be built at Disney World, leaving the last 20 mile problem.

 

[kanerf]

The US is big, and there has been little investment in high speed rail, let alone dedicated passenger rail throughout much of the country.

There are a couple of trains that go from South Florida to the Northeast daily Silver Star and Silver Meteor/Palmetto Express.

It takes about 3:15 for the Amtrak train to get from Fort Lauderdale to Orlando, almost the same
time as driving it. Another huge issue is transportation at either end. Many US urban areas are not easily navigable without a car, so if you took a train between cities. you still may have an issue (or expense) getting the last 20 miles, as opposed to driving.

Brightline goes quite a bit faster than Amtrak. Service is now offered between Miami and MCO. Disney hasn't permitted stations to be built at Disney World, leaving the last 20 mile problem.

Depending on demand, I imagine Mears might start running from the Brightline station to DW.

 

[bcla]

Given the sheer amount of real estate it has to cover (and, as others have mentioned, limited population in much of that area), the government focused more of their infrastructure budget towards the highway system instead of rail.

Passenger rail used to be considerably more important at one time in the United States. Freight railroads were given a lot of powers including that of eminent domain to acquire land and the ability to operate a private police force with the same powers as a government police force. And part of the bargain was that they had an obligation to provide passenger rail service.

Even if it didn't make them money, passenger rail service used to be a prestige operation for the major railroads. They spent a lot of money and wanted passengers. A lot of our grand national park lodges were built by the major railroads as a way to encourage travel on their rails. Union Pacific had their Utah Parks Company that built lodges all over, including Zion National Park, Bryce Canyon National Park, and the Grand Canyon North Rim.

Amtrak wasn't actually expected to survive, but it was a way for participating railroads to get out of their obligation to provide passenger rail service.

 

[mjkacmom]

My daughter goes to school in Boston, she’s gotten fares as low at $30 from NJ, 4 hours. Amtrak is pretty good on the eastern corridor, between DC and Boston We also have good commuter rail here, I have several options from my town to NYC or Philadelphi stations less than 20 minutes from me

 

[tvguy]

Depends on where you're going. I've actually used Amtrak (or specifically Amtrak California, which is a state supported entity that's affiliated with Amtrak) to get from the San Francisco Bay Area to Southern California although it involved buses every time on parts of the route. Amtrak itself runs a train once daily, but it's typically more expensive.

On Christmas Day 2022 I hit Southwest Airline's meltdown and booked Amtrak for the next day for $63 when there were absolutely zero airline options.

In other parts of the world, passenger rail is heavily subsidized and thus cheap. It's subsidized to some degree in the US but there's also the issue that we don't quite have the same density of rail and that the freight railroads that own most of the tracks would sooner have Amtrak go away and leave them alone.

My son road that route from Sacramento to Los Angeles........once. He said he spent more time on the Amtrak bus that the train.

 

[SteveMouse]

Depending on demand, I imagine Mears might start running from the Brightline station to DW.

The Brightline station is at MCO. Right now, you could walk from the train to the existing bus depot at the airport. An earlier concept had trains running to Disney poperty.

Albeit it a promotional fare, my mother is taking Brighline from South Florida to MCO for $45. Mears is $35 from MCO to Disney?

 

[monsterkitty]

I have a friend who lives in Orlando. She took the BrightPink train from MCO to Miami to catch a cruise. She said she will never drive from Orlando to Miami again.

Rent a car and drive to MCO. Return the car. Take the BrightPink to Miami. Do the same but in reverse.

 

[Pooh2]

I was looking at options to get to Ft Lauderdale/Miami from Atlanta.


Why are passenger rail options so horrible for so much of the US?

That is bizarre routing from Georgia to Florida!
We've done Amtrak from Boston to Orlando, 32 hours.
I cannot recall if we went stopped in Atlanta on the way.

Maybe call Amtrak customer service in case the app was being weird with the routing and see if they come up with a different route?

I recall that we looked into taking Amtrak from New Orleans to Florida and they routed us up through Chicago!
We passed and rented a car for the portion to drive the gulf coast instead.

On a different note, we've been driving from NH to Florida the last few years, going route 77/81 for a more scenic trip and getting away from route 95.
Makes for a bit longer trip but less stressful and more interesting route.

 

[kdonnel]

That is bizarre routing from Georgia to Florida!
We've done Amtrak from Boston to Orlando, 32 hours.
I cannot recall if we went stopped in Atlanta on the way.

Maybe call Amtrak customer service in case the app was being weird with the routing and see if they come up with a different route?

I recall that we looked into taking Amtrak from New Orleans to Florida and they routed us up through Chicago!
We passed and rented a car for the portion to drive the gulf coast instead.

On a different note, we've been driving from NH to Florida the last few years, going route 77/81 for a more scenic trip and getting away from route 95.
Makes for a bit longer trip but less stressful and more interesting route.

The only train that runs through Atlanta goes from New Orleans to New York, the Crescent.

There is the option to change lines in Charlotte or Virginia.

If you change in Charlotte you have to change trains twice, if you wait until Virginia you only have to change once.

 

[bcla]

My son road that route from Sacramento to Los Angeles........once. He said he spent more time on the Amtrak bus that the train.

I think I've done Bay Area to LA/OC (or back) on 9 one-way rides. And the most common for me was a bus from Emeryville to Santa Barbara plus a train to LA/Anaheim - or reversed. I think I did that 7 times, including with an 11-12 year old with me. Sleeping overnight on the bus also saved a hotel night. There was no sleeping overnight on the train because they corridor routes don't operate in early morning like the long-distance routes. A lot of that was booked where I had Amtrak rewards points for several years of (mostly) commuting to work via Capitol Corridor. And I stopped doing that in 2015 but still had adequate points to book travel up to 2022. That was back when their rewards program was segment based though. No way I would have gotten those same points these days where they're based on the price of tickets.

Once I was looking to get to Anaheim in the morning where I was hoping I could convince the bus driver that I had an eligible Amtrak ticket (supposedly only Pacific Surfliner although I took the bus there). Took the San Joaquins train to Bakersfield then transferred to a bus. I was still trying to sleep on the bus but it can get tricky when the driver calls out stops loudly so that passengers don't miss their stop. I remember Santa Clarita, Burbank and LA Union Station before reaching Anaheim at about 3 AM. I think the bus continued to San Diego. But there was no Orange County Transit Agency bus because there was a mechanic's strike. So I walked like a zombie at that early in the morning 3 miles to across the street from Disneyland where I plopped myself at Denny's and asked how long I could stay there (plenty of space so they didn't care). Even though it was technically my day off, my goal was to participate in a remote meeting from Disneyland. I mean - a coworker was in Mexico for his daughter's wedding and he joined in from his resort hotel.

December 26, 2022 (after the Southwest Christmas meltdown) was fun. I think I booked the last available ticket and that was Emeryville to San Luis Obispo on a bus and then Amtrak California's Pacific Surfliner down to LA Union Station. Talked to a conductor on the train and he said that he'd never seen it that full the day after Christmas, meaning it wasn't typically a big day for Amtrak but that a lot of people were riding Amtrak with air travel so messed up.

 

[TheChanClan]

Consider yourself lucky your airline options aren't more expensive. It can be over $4k for my family of four to get to FL from the west coast.

I've always been pleasantly surprised when going by rail. You often see a lot of things you don't normally see by car.
But I agree, it's sorely lacking compared to many other countries. It's just not enough of a priority to make it more accessible.

 

[kdonnel]

But I agree, it's sorely lacking compared to many other countries. It's just not enough of a priority to make it more accessible.

I guess I should have expected it after my attempt at using public transit to commute to work a few years ago.

That was a 2 hour each way journey to go 40 miles. It involved an 18 mile drive, 20 mile bus ride, 6 mile subway ride, and finally a 1/3 mile walk. Then the reverse in the evening.

I found I could drive the entire way 45-60 minutes faster if I was willing to pay $36 a day in tolls.

The US very much favors cars over all other forms of transportation.

 

[Skippy918]

There’s no high speed rail in most of the country except the northeast corridor. Plus you will still need a car on the other end when going to most places. I would not want to spend that much time in a train when I can fly a lot faster.