What they've taken away

[bsmcneil]

This is exactly it.

Everyone easily forgets that this company lost billions last year between the parks and movies divisions. They're going to get their money back, because the company answers to the shareholders first. So just like was said above, as long as people keep coming, they're doing their jobs.

They didn't. Revenue went down but they didn't lose money on the whole.

 

[Marionnette]

They didn't. Revenue went down but they didn't lose money on the whole.

Agreed! Plus Parks & Rec posted an operating income of $386M for the Q3 (April 3 - July 3) earnings calls. That was with DL still closed for the month of April and capacity limits, mask requirements and social distancing still in place. The parks may not be as profitable as they were in 2019 but they are not losing money. The Walt Disney Company as a whole did not lose money (i.e. operate in the red) during the entire pandemic shutdown. It just did not make as much.

 

[revdon64]

not my rant. Just my take on the recent changes. I am keeping my DVC, my AP, and still visiting at least twice a year. Like I said, I understand your frustration. I am sure once the dust settles and life is back to normal (as normal as it can be) that you will feel differently.

Don't be so sure. My wife is graduating with her PhD in March at the Hyatt Regency Orlando, so we'll be in Central Florida. We decided to use the three nights/two rooms/park tix that we were comped from Disney for the bad experiences from our last trip. We'll go to EPCOT and HS to focus on the things we haven't seen yet, and that's it. We're done after that. My kids aren't even excited about going, they'd rather go back to Great Smokey Mountain National Park.

 

[cate2]

Package delivery from the parks and Downtown Disney to your resort...although this one has saved me money since I don't buy as much!

Does anyone know if this is temporary? I like not having to carry things and like even more not worrying about losing/forgetting my items.

 

[HashberryOTG]

I believe this is expected to return. I hope so!

 

[TiggerBouncy]

The Walt Disney Company as a whole did not lose money (i.e. operate in the red) during the entire pandemic shutdown. It just did not make as much.

Their 2020 Annual Report disagrees with you.

2020 Revenues in millions 65,388
2020 Net Income (loss) from continuing operations (2,442) Note 2019 was 10,897
2020 Net income (loss) from continuing operations attributable to Disney (2,832)
* a number in parenthesis is a LOSS.

Even more damning....
Per common share:
continuing operations - Diluted (1.57) compared to 2019 which was 6.26
continuing operations - Based (1.57) compared to 2019 which was 6.30.

I am not sure what your definition of "operate in the red" is... but I consider losing almost 2.5 Billion dollars as being in the red; not to mention the very Dismal loss per common share.

In addition, they added on 11 Billion in new debt in 2020. Note that Debt does not count against income except for any interest that was accrued. So that further devalues the company so it is reflected in the Market Cap....

Speaking of which... Their market cap went from 273 Billion in 2019 to a low of about 172 Billion a year later in 2020. Yup... the company was worth about 60% of it's former value. WOW!
(Author's note... their current Market cap is back up now to about 320 - an all time high - mostly fueled by hope that the pandemic is almost over and Disney may be returning to normal - but this is not based in operating income, but rather market speculation around the time the vaccine was released. It's been steadily dropping the longer the pandemic stretches).

Doesn't it just suck when facts disagree with off the cuff statements about greedy companies?

 

[bsmcneil]

Their 2020 Annual Report disagrees with you.

2020 Revenues in millions 65,388
2020 Net Income (loss) from continuing operations (2,442) Note 2019 was 10,897
2020 Net income (loss) from continuing operations attributable to Disney (2,832)
* a number in parenthesis is a LOSS.

Even more damning....
Per common share:
continuing operations - Diluted (1.57) compared to 2019 which was 6.26
continuing operations - Based (1.57) compared to 2019 which was 6.30.

I am not sure what your definition of "operate in the red" is... but I consider losing almost 2.5 Billion dollars as being in the red; not to mention the very Dismal loss per common share.

In addition, they added on 11 Billion in new debt in 2020. Note that Debt does not count against income except for any interest that was accrued. So that further devalues the company.

Doesn't it just suck when facts disagree with off the cuff statements about greedy companies?

I'm not an economist; but from the articles I've read (an example) Disney (as a company overall) had a loss in revenue for many divisions but not a loss in profit overall. (edited to add: I can't speak to Marionette, which is who you quoted, but the few times I've made this comment over the past few months, I've done so after reading several pieces related specifically to revenue/profit for the entirety of 2020 and none of them were "off the cuff" about greed).

An accounting maneuver in the TV business that boosted operating income beyond expectations helped Disney beat expectations for profit overall. Disney said that it moved costs related to its ownership of rights to sports programming to future quarters because U.S. professional sports were not played in the quarter. That boosted operating income in the media-networks segment to more than $3 billion, 48% higher than last year and nearly double analysts’ average expectation.

Reports regarding income and profit have to be read incredibly carefully because (perhaps obviously) companies are looking to portray things as optimistically as possible while also being honest. This article from USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...s-closures-result-hit-3-5-billion/3292766001/), for instance, draws this out some:

The company's parks, experiences and products segment revenue declined 85% to $1 billion compared with the same quarter in 2019. Operating income fell $3.7 billion to a loss of $2 billion. Disney's media networks segment helped offset the losses from parks, experiences and products. Across all segments, the coronavirus pandemic's impact cost the company $2.9 billion in April, May and June.

Costing the company 3bn during three months isn't the same as the company operating at a loss of 3bn for those 3 months.

 

[Amunet]

Their 2020 Annual Report disagrees with you.

2020 Revenues in millions 65,388
2020 Net Income (loss) from continuing operations (2,442) Note 2019 was 10,897
2020 Net income (loss) from continuing operations attributable to Disney (2,832)
* a number in parenthesis is a LOSS.

Even more damning....
Per common share:
continuing operations - Diluted (1.57) compared to 2019 which was 6.26
continuing operations - Based (1.57) compared to 2019 which was 6.30.

I am not sure what your definition of "operate in the red" is... but I consider losing almost 2.5 Billion dollars as being in the red; not to mention the very Dismal loss per common share.

In addition, they added on 11 Billion in new debt in 2020. Note that Debt does not count against income except for any interest that was accrued. So that further devalues the company so it is reflected in the Market Cap....

Speaking of which... Their market cap went from 273 Billion in 2019 to a low of about 172 Billion a year later in 2020. Yup... the company was worth about 60% of it's former value. WOW!
(Author's note... their current Market cap is back up now to about 320 - an all time high - mostly fueled by hope that the pandemic is almost over and Disney may be returning to normal - but this is not based in operating income, but rather market speculation around the time the vaccine was released. It's been steadily dropping the longer the pandemic stretches).

Doesn't it just suck when facts disagree with off the cuff statements about greedy companies?

Okay, these are comparative numbers. The example below are just made up numbers to make it simpler for calculations.

2019 Disney as a whole made a $10 million profit
2019 WDW made a $2 million profit
2019 Disneyland made a $5 million profit
etc. etc.
2020 Disney as a whole made a $5 million profit
2020 WDW made a $1 million profit
2020 Disneyland made $2 million profit
etc. etc.

So, there are losses COMPARED to other years, but they still have made profit. That is what previous posters are trying to say. They have not lost profit overall, they have just lost compared to previous years.

 

[shalom]

I honestly feel that Disney is treating their guests more like high rollers in a casino - the more money you spend, the more they will give you. This isn't Vegas, it's Disneyworld and I don't think anyone should be shut out of anything because they can't afford it. Every "class" should be able to experience the magic like they used to. It's still a very expensive vacation no matter where you fall in the food chain. JMHO.

Well, I dunno. Our family's "adopted grandma" took her own two sons to Disney World in the 1970s, when the only park was the Magic Kingdom. They slept in the station wagon going down, spent one day at the park eating home made food, slept in the station wagon that night, then headed home. Most people nowadays could afford to go to Disney World (or part of it) that way nowadays, but there aren't too many that would!

I may not always like the new things Disney introduces, and I may not be happy they removed something I did like for something I don't, but I can deal with Disney changing stuff and I recognize I live in a world where "what the market will bear" sets most Disney prices. That said, I do think Disney has been paring back on some of the "special things" that made it magic, and that this predates any COVID adjustments. My family has no interest in ordinary amusement parks -- none of us are big on the rides -- and we were disappointed to lose Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom, plus I'm starting to have my doubts that the Kim Possible/Agent P’s World Showcase Adventure will ever be revived in a Ducktails version. We're going to Orlando next January and there's some debate over whether we're going to do the parks or not; there are new areas and rides since we were last out that we'd like to see, but we're not sure the tickets are worth it when there's nothing live going on.

People who normally do ski vacations or city vacations or regularly travel by air may consider Disney a reasonably priced vacation, but we're more national park/gardens/quirky museum types, and for us, a Disney vacation is quite pricey. We were fine with that when we could afford the time for two weeks at a shot, because that brought our price-per-park-day down, but for various reasons it's getting harder and harder for everyone to get that much time off, meaning the price per day of a Disney ticket is getting to be about the same as the price per day at Universal, and doing Universal sounds less frustrating because we can see all the parks in the time we have. Plus the nickle-and-diming thing is another reason we've stuck with Disney instead of doing Universal. Only now Disney's nickle-and-diming worse than Universal does!

But I am starting to think they're taking away more than they're giving lately, and, more particularly, what they're taking away is going to cost the "average man." Then again, back when there were A, B, C, D, and E-tickets, many an average man -- or our adopted grandma -- bought one of the basic books for each kid, maybe another one to split with mom, and when the family used up their tickets, they were done for the day. Yes, there was a time when everyone in the parks was equal, and the perks of the rich didn't cut much into the enjoyment of the peons who couldn't afford to stay onsite, so long as the peons did their homework. It may be those days are gone.

Personally, I'm with holding judgment until the new paid system shakes out and we readjust to a COVID world and they start bringing back live activities. It looks ugly now, but it could look better in a year or two. The only thing certain with Disney is change.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Okay, these are comparative numbers. The example below are just made up numbers to make it simpler for calculations.

So, there are losses COMPARED to other years, but they still have made profit. That is what previous posters are trying to say. They have not lost profit overall, they have just lost compared to previous years.

Those number I posted were NOT comparative, but thank you for playing. I am guessing you do not have much experience reading Annual reports. The numbers below are NOT made up to make it simpler for calculations. They are the official numbers that are filled to the SEC. As is required by law, they post the last 5 years worth for comparison. Later in the annual report, they break down by percentage how much it went up or down compared to prior year and why. But COMPATIVELY, it was a loss of over 13 billion from 2019. In 2020 Annual, they lost 2.5 billion in actual dollars (compared to $0 being flat line).As mentioned, those previous posters were making stuff up to spin their narrative. These are the facts.

I'm not an economist; but from the articles I've read (an example) Disney (as a company overall) had a loss in revenue for many divisions but not a loss in profit overall. (edited to add: I can't speak to Marionette, which is who you quoted, but the few times I've made this comment over the past few months, I've done so after reading several pieces related specifically to revenue/profit for the entirety of 2020 and none of them were "off the cuff" about greed).

<rolls up my sleeves> Okay... now we are getting into a fun conversation worthy of discussion.

I have seen many of the comments and articles you have too. Which is why I decided in this post to finally go to the source of the beast. Like you mention, everyone twists words to make a point. But unless they are performing illegal acts, they have to file their 2020 Annual Report and there are a lot of financial restrictions on that. I double checked by numbers to make sure I was not just reading parks and rec. But definitely not. Parks are rec lost 81M (which I have to admit... seems less than I assumed given the costs didn't go down much. That just goes to show you how much of P&R goes to profit if they can lose almost 40% of their revenue and almost break even).



However, like you say they also do some manipulation so things do not sound so dire. To that end, if you read the annual report down a bit you get to their segment analysis, which takes out certain figures so they can make comparisons of the health of the segment. These numbers however are not actually what the bottom line sees. They are segment numbers used for performance metrics and are easily manipulated since the SEC doesn't care. MOST of it seems to be segment offsets from Media Networks (ABC, ESPN, etc...). Note that is says Media Networks made over 9 Billion and Studio another 2. My guess is that these numbers are what the various news articles are referring to when they make comments about Disney making money, After all, 81M is nothing compared to 9 Billion. Comparatively, Direct to Consumer lost 3 Billion! (Makes P&R's loss look like pocket change). Overall, it looks like they made 8B.





But the first table I posted above is the kicker you can't ignore.


Bottom line is Disney LOST $1.58 per share. Those numbers are NOT per segment and can't be easily spun or manipulated without breaking a few laws (like En-ron-ron-ron oh En-ron-ron).

You will also see reflected above as I mentioned their total long term obligations (read Debt) went from 60 Billion to 80 Billion. Some of that was expected offsets and rolling debt from Fox (about 9B). The other 11 was unexpected COVID offsets to keep the company afloat and keep some of the Cap-Ex projects rolling.

 

[Rickat96]

Just because Disney failed to make $ during a crisis-mean they are "entitled" to make it back. They cant, they wont.

 

[shawthorne44]

Just because Disney failed to make $ during a crisis-mean they are "entitled" to make it back. They cant, they wont.

Particularly when one of their products, Disney +, was assisted by the crisis.

I also note that Six Flags and Universal took the opposite approach. They brought people back right away and did things to tempt people back.

We'd had Six Flags season passes for 2020 since we always buy during the labor day sale. We obviously didn't use it much during 2020. But, they gave us 2021 for free including the dining plan. Then those that had a 2020 season pass were offered a discounted 2022 pass for $50. That is for the water park also and free parking. I contrast that with Disney's attitude.

 

[buffy71]

EDITED: I'm adding what folks pointed out from the posts below!
Let me try to tally everything taken away while ticket and hotel prices continue to rise:

1. Free hotel parking for guests
2. Daily housekeeping (or the option to forego for gift cards)
3. Fast Pass and the advance planning it allowed
4. Day-of choice of which park to attend
5. Extra Magic Hours (morning AND evening)
6. Park Hopping when you want to
7. Magical Express
8. Dining plan
9. Street entertainment (like Citizens of Hollywood)
-------Below from all of your comments-----
10. Free Magic Bands (and the fun box with the luggage tags!)
11. Resort entertainment in lounges, lobbies, and restaurants
12. Nighttime shows like Fantasmic!
13. Resort luggage check-in
14. Daily cross-park locker rentals
15. Full access to pools (longer hours) and facilities (showers, etc)
16. Full Parades
17. Tours and affordable add-ons
18. Character meet-n-greets in lines, at restaurants; photos
19. Resort package delivery
20. Parking lot trams
21. Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom (how could I forget? We loved it!)
22. Some boat services and monorail routes
23. Minnie vans
24. Park-to-park transportation service
25. Hoop de Doo Musical Review at FW
'
What else am I missing? I'm so mad about Genie+ but really it's just the straw that is breaking the camel's back. I'm a mom and the family planner. When wheels went up at Midway, I was on vacation. Luggage, transport, scheduling, cleaning-- all done and set. I've been an absolute defender of wdw and on-site hotels, but this is the point of no return.
They've made a ton of money during covid. There's no excuse. None.

Agree. I am a DVC member and there is a complete loss of value for the AP which is on my list. I don't live locally, so I would plan two vacations within a year to get my value out of the AP. All the add-ons needed for the AP, plus the added cost of Genie +, plus need for park reservations and no real hopping - it is a complete joke. Pay more for significantly less. I have one upcoming vacation that I will keep. After that I won't be planning anymore Disney vacations and will use my DVC points for non-park resorts or hotel stays only. They can kiss my aXX.

 

[Tyler's Dad]

Particularly when one of their products, Disney +, was assisted by the crisis.

I also note that Six Flags and Universal took the opposite approach. They brought people back right away and did things to tempt people back.

We'd had Six Flags season passes for 2020 since we always buy during the labor day sale. We obviously didn't use it much during 2020. But, they gave us 2021 for free including the dining plan. Then those that had a 2020 season pass were offered a discounted 2022 pass for $50. That is for the water park also and free parking. I contrast that with Disney's attitude.

Disney is not 6 Flags and really, not even Universal. Those parks are much more reliant upon local visitors, which is why they opened more earlier and instituted annual passes earlier. Disney wants these, but they are not reliant upon them as much. Six Flags needs people at the park, so they pandered to get people there. Universal found a niche with Florida residents by saying they just didn't care as much about COVID and opening up much more, earlier. Disney took a big picture approach to this and decided to be cautious and concentrate on families traveling into town, which is why they were slower to bring back annual passes.

By waiting for the 50th Anniversary to rollout all of these changes, they made it through their busiest period without annual passholders, they made it to their next rush, which is people coming into town for the 50th Anniversary and will rely on the pent up annual passholder demand to bridge between October and the holiday crowds, without doing a bunch of travel discounts to bring in people.

I can guarantee no one at Disney believe they will make up all of the money they lost during this pandemic. What they are doing now is to try to use this time to fix some issues they saw with crowding, the tilting of their experience away from new visitors and toward mega planners, and what they saw as some missed revenue streams. They are taking a gamble on all of this giving a better overall park experience to crowds in the future. Whether that ends up being correct is to be seen, but that's their bet.

 

[DVC92]

Park hours have been so reduced. Mk never closed at 9PM daily. It was open as late as midnight quite often. AK closing at 7PM in the summer. So much for the evening show at the lake. At least EPCOT is currently open 'til 10, but HS should definitely be open later than 9 with long wait times for rides.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Particularly when one of their products, Disney +, was assisted by the crisis.

I also note that Six Flags and Universal took the opposite approach. They brought people back right away and did things to tempt people back.

We'd had Six Flags season passes for 2020 since we always buy during the labor day sale. We obviously didn't use it much during 2020. But, they gave us 2021 for free including the dining plan. Then those that had a 2020 season pass were offered a discounted 2022 pass for $50. That is for the water park also and free parking. I contrast that with Disney's attitude.

But six flags needs people. The six flags near me was downright empty. Universal needs people.

Lately Disney has been bursting at the seams to the point that they can not keep staffing up with the crowds. They do not want to spin up faster then they can support and that's already been happening to a degree. A controlled spin-up is far smarter.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Just because Disney failed to make $ during a crisis-mean they are "entitled" to make it back. They cant, they wont.

This point makes no sense to me.

As a company and not an individual, Disney is both not "entitled" to anything and are "entitled" to do anything legal. It's their company and as a publicly traded company, they have an obligation to make money for their shareholders. They can do (they are "entitled" to do) whatever they legally want and should do whatever makes sense to earn money. That's not an entitlement - it's a legal right.

 

[kbelle8995]

Disney is not 6 Flags and really, not even Universal. Those parks are much more reliant upon local visitors, which is why they opened more earlier and instituted annual passes earlier. Disney wants these, but they are not reliant upon them as much. Six Flags needs people at the park, so they pandered to get people there. Universal found a niche with Florida residents by saying they just didn't care as much about COVID and opening up much more, earlier. Disney took a big picture approach to this and decided to be cautious and concentrate on families traveling into town, which is why they were slower to bring back annual passes.

By waiting for the 50th Anniversary to rollout all of these changes, they made it through their busiest period without annual passholders, they made it to their next rush, which is people coming into town for the 50th Anniversary and will rely on the pent up annual passholder demand to bridge between October and the holiday crowds, without doing a bunch of travel discounts to bring in people.

I can guarantee no one at Disney believe they will make up all of the money they lost during this pandemic. What they are doing now is to try to use this time to fix some issues they saw with crowding, the tilting of their experience away from new visitors and toward mega planners, and what they saw as some missed revenue streams. They are taking a gamble on all of this giving a better overall park experience to crowds in the future. Whether that ends up being correct is to be seen, but that's their bet.

I visited Universal several times during the pass year. No they did not say that they did not care about COVID at Universal. Team Members were constantly and consistantly making sure guests were staying socially distant and were wearing masks. I saw them several times getting guests back to an appropriate distance. Disney was still accepting guest who had AP's and renewing APs. for those who already had them and they were still charging us. They just weren't selling new ones. And they would like Floridians to come just as much as Universal. Money is money. T And I saw more guests not wearing masks and not socially distancing at Disney.

And Universal made the process of their parks closed easier by simply extending the AP's. I spent hours on the phone for weeks at a time trying to get Disney to do the same thing. I don't know if everyone had this experience. All I can say is this was mine

 

[Rickat96]

This point makes no sense to me.

As a company and not an individual, Disney is both not "entitled" to anything and are "entitled" to do anything legal. It's their company and as a publicly traded company, they have an obligation to make money for their shareholders. They can do (they are "entitled" to do) whatever they legally want and should do whatever makes sense to earn money. That's not an entitlement - it's a legal right.

Basically you're saying Disney has a legal right to recoup losses for shareholders benefit, the part you miss is, those funds are gone.

 

[shawthorne44]

Lately Disney has been bursting at the seams to the point that they can not keep staffing up with the crowds. They do not want to spin up faster then they can support and that's already been happening to a degree. A controlled spin-up is far smarter.

But the reason they are bursting at the seams isn't demand. It is that the staffing is too low to handle the people they allow in. There aren't as many things to do to keep the Disney crowds occupied. Not only are things still closed, but the ride capacity isn't what it could be with more staff. The reason for the lack of staff is that they haven't called everyone back and they treated people badly when they laid them off.