Vent: school systems, IEPs, and parents (super long)

[Forevryoung]

Maybe you guys can offer suggestions. This is NOT my daughter so I do not have much say in the outcomes. As you can tell, I love this child dearly and truely want what's best for her.

I am super close with a family whose 10 year old daughter has CP (I went to Disney with them in June... it's the same child who is still in a stroller). They moved to North Carolina from NY three years ago. Let me say, NY schools are awesome and NC schools stink in terms of IEP and services available. She is in 5th grade in a regular classroom with a one-on-one. She needed summer-school badly because she falls very far behind over the summer but the school "does not provide a summer-program" unless the child is severely learning disabled. I think Chris should classify but apparently she doesnt. Chris still has trouble subtracting 2 and 3 digit numbers when you have to carry. She has a lot of short term memory issues and has trouble following a basic story. Chapter books require a lot of effort. She has learned to write down a key sentence from each chapter. She has difficulty spelling basic words because she mixes up letters. It is the seventh week or so of school and she is completely lost already. I feel so bad for her because she is totally frustrated and she has a lot of homework so it isn't like it is just at school. Currently besides the one-on-one in the classroom she has 10 sessions of resource room a week. One for reading and one for math. So that would suggest the school admits that she needs extra help.

The issue lies in the fact that it was very difficult for her to pass the end of year exams in fourth grade and her mom doesnt think that she can pass the fifth grade ones. I am not even going to think about what she needs for sixth grade (middle school). I say they can't hold her back because of a learning disability and that her IEP needs to be rewritten NOW and not later. Possibly even retest her learning disability. I suggested Chris's mom call for a meeting for when I am there in October (Im not even in the same state). Her mom is procrastinating of course because she doesnt want to take care of it or put up a fight. I know there is nothing else I can do but it feels good to tell you guys. If this was my daughter I wouldnt have let it get this bad and I know you guys wouldn't have either. Sorry this is so long, thanks for reaching the end.

 

[roseprincess]

to you and Chris.
I remember a few months back, you had posted about the family situation in Chris's family. I remember you had mentioned Chris's mother wasn't supportive of her. I can't remember if her dad was supportive or not. I remember something about a house that was being built for them that was not w/c friendly or disabled friendly?
I'm so sorry Chris is going thru all this in school. The only suggestions I can think of is if the father can be her advocate for her, her mom not doing it. Get the dad more involved with the school system for Chris, instead of the mom. Also another suggestion would be to hire a professional advocate that you and the mom can agree with, that can come to the IEP meetings. I don't know if Chris's mom or dad will go for that, but it's worth a try. The third suggestion would be, would they have any way to move back to NY? I'm guessing the dad has a steady job already in NC?

I guess I don't quite understand why the mom and dad are not Chris's advocate, to fight for her to get certain services, etc? I know so many moms and dads, mostly moms, in my area, that fight for everything for their special needs child, whether it's certain sevices or summer school, etc.

Maybe other people here, if there are any special ed teachers that read these boards, can offer up other advice for you.

I'll keep Chris in my thoughts and needing PD

Rosemarie

 

[Michigan]

Has anyone mentioned a cross categorical classroom? The class room has fewer students and moves at a slower pace while still keeping the child in the grade they would be in if they were only in regular ed.

 

[Forevryoung]

Has anyone mentioned a cross categorical classroom? The class room has fewer students and moves at a slower pace while still keeping the child in the grade they would be in if they were only in regular ed.

That was my idea- at this point it would be a blow to her self-esteem since she has been in regular ed since she started school. I thought even having her do that "part time" and having lunch and art and everything else with her friends.

 

[teacherforhi]

I teach in a cross-categorical classroom in NC. In my classroom, we don't really move at a 'slower pace'. We concentrate on the skills that my students need to know. If the student in question actually passed the 4th grade EOGs, then the cross categorical classroom may not be the place for her. All of my students are alternatively assessed because of their inability to work on grade level.

Also, the purpose of an IEP is not to help the student pass the EOGs. In fact, if the child is in 5th grade, for example, the goals written should not be for fifth grade. If the child was capable of performing on grade level, he or she shouldn't need an IEP. Accomodations for taking standardized tests are listed on the IEP, but that is the extent that they are addressed.

As far as Extended School Year is concerned, there are five factors that must be considered. 1) Has there been a severe interruption of services during the school year? 2) Does the student fail to regain information lost over a vacation in two weeks? 3) Is the student's disability so severe that the system would not be providing a free, appropriate, public education if services are not provided in the summer? 4) Has the student failed to make adequate progress on IEP goals during the school year? 5) Is the parent committed to making the child available and providing transportation during the summer?

In order to qualifity, an IEP team would need to answer YES to four of those five questions. Unfortunately, numbers 3 and 4 are subjective. Also, it sounds as if, in this particular case, the parent may not be a strong advocate for the child.

And as a sidenote, NC schools don't stink just because you don't agree with the decisions made by the IEP team. The parents need to be strong advocates for their child if they think that the IEP is inappropriate. Some schools are better than others in any state that you visit.

 

[HaleyB]

I have found that my school here in Texas got a whole lot more responsive to my child's needs AFTER I had him assessed myself. It was very interesting because the report from our team of doctors got to me about a week after the report from the school tests... My son did not qualify for serves when the school first tested him. He now is protected under 504 and has an IEP.

Teacherforhi, please do not take offense regarding the OP statement about NC schools. New York has one of the best public school systems in the country and it is a shock to go to another state. I am sure there as many wonderful teachers in every state, but the system is so much better in NY.

 

[newtowdw1]

Hi! I'm a Mom and a teacher in NYstate. I teach IEP students in my regular Biology program. This is obviously just my opinion, but it sounds to me as though Chris is, according to NY, a learning disabled student. As though there is some organic issue with her ability to learn. As such, she needs more support than she is currently getting. However, NC seems to have a different definition. Chris may have to get 'behind' to qualify for further services.

That said, she needs a tutor. She needs someone to work with her one-on-one every afternoon to reinforce the skills she is lacking. Most likely, her folks can't afford it...just seems the way of the world! She also needs to set different goals for herself. Is it reasonable for her to do EVERY math problem. Maybe her grade won't be as high, but what if she did a third correctly. More helpful, IMO, than rotely doing 20 or 30 problems and getting exhausted and frustrated. Better to do a few correctly than do a lot wrong.

I'm also guessing that her mom is easily intimidated by teachers and schools. SHe probably hates conflict. We see a lot of it here!

Good luck with your friend. I don't know that you would be allowed to attend an IEP meeting.

 

[Forevryoung]

I teach in a cross-categorical classroom in NC. In my classroom, we don't really move at a 'slower pace'. We concentrate on the skills that my students need to know. If the student in question actually passed the 4th grade EOGs, then the cross categorical classroom may not be the place for her. All of my students are alternatively assessed because of their inability to work on grade level.

You are correct, she passed her 4th grade EOG's but it was more of a struggle than it should have been. I think she is missing a lot more information that people think.

Also, the purpose of an IEP is not to help the student pass the EOGs. In fact, if the child is in 5th grade, for example, the goals written should not be for fifth grade. If the child was capable of performing on grade level, he or she shouldn't need an IEP. Accomodations for taking standardized tests are listed on the IEP, but that is the extent that they are addressed.

I understand this- goals are more generalized toward education as a whole. I believe she gets to dictate her essays and she definitely gets extended time but those are for test taking. I am just making an example out of the 5th grade EOG's because that was what her mother brought up to me. If we are already guessing she wont be able to pass them then she needs help NOW, not once she fails. That is what I am saying.

As far as Extended School Year is concerned, there are five factors that must be considered. 1) Has there been a severe interruption of services during the school year? 2) Does the student fail to regain information lost over a vacation in two weeks? 3) Is the student's disability so severe that the system would not be providing a free, appropriate, public education if services are not provided in the summer? 4) Has the student failed to make adequate progress on IEP goals during the school year? 5) Is the parent committed to making the child available and providing transportation during the summer?

1) During the summer she does NOT receive much needed OT and PT.
2) It takes her a long time to catch up again. Her mother makes sure that she does something every day to maintain.
3) She has a severe disability in my mind
4) Yes
5) Yes

In order to qualifity, an IEP team would need to answer YES to four of those five questions. Unfortunately, numbers 3 and 4 are subjective. Also, it sounds as if, in this particular case, the parent may not be a strong advocate for the child.

And as a sidenote, NC schools don't stink just because you don't agree with the decisions made by the IEP team. The parents need to be strong advocates for their child if they think that the IEP is inappropriate. Some schools are better than others in any state that you visit.

It's the fact that the opportunities in NY were so much better than what is available in NC. For example, in NY we have teacher/teachers aide/high school student run activity programs 5 days a week after school. Some days it is tutoring with a high school student, some days it's adaptive phys ed., every Friday they go swimming one on one with a high school student in the pool (a highlight of the week).

It might JUST be the school and the people who are doing the assessments but I read a Physical therapist wrote "Child only needs services ONE time a week because they have cerebral palsy and will never improve" on her IEP reccommendations. I am not exageratting. It made me so upset that someone would write that about a third grader (at the time). So it was a fight to get PT 2x's a week because it is obvious the child will never walk (their mindset). I think that is disgusting.

Thanks for your input!

 

[TiggerCate]

Please forgive me if this is short and not well thought out, but I am very tired tonite! My son is autistic and with a couple of school districts we have had to fight to get him summer school. Usually, there have been two arguments we have been able to use in the past to get it successfully for him- 1) That he loses way too many skills during time off. You can use past history to show a loss of skills over breaks. 2) Last year, we argued for it (and won) because his teacher and OT said he was having emerging skills that could be lost over the summer. I don't know if that's just in Washington state, but both school districts were really stingy with services (esp. summer classes) and ended up giving it to him. Good luck!

 

[missypie]

If the mom isn't willing to fight - or to hire an advocate to fight for her - things are only going to get worse as time goes by; certainly not better. The public schools will do just about everything they can to avoid giving special services. It's expensive.

 

[SueM in MN]

Here's a good website:
www.pacer.org
PACER is based in Minnesota, but it is a national resource for Parent Advocacy Coalition for Educational Rights. It has link to helpful information about IEPs, services, and advocates in each state - this link should get you to the advocacy group for NC:
http://www.taalliance.org/centers/region2.htm#VA

 

[seashoreCM]

It seems to me impossible for a group of children to go through a school curriculum at a much slower pace year after year and still advance to the next grade each and every fall.

How easily could a tutor be obtained (or is this the underlying topic of the post)?

>>> rotely doing every math problem

Would it help if a slower learner took/did/performed fewer subjects during each school year (and made up the missed subjects in a later fall/winter/spring timeframe and took longer to graduate at 6'th grade, 8'th or 9'th grade, and 12'th grade respectively)?

Is the student able to do any independent study, or rather any study independently, however slow, perhaps with supervision from a parent or sibling?

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

I was trying out for the track team back in high school. Practice included "wind sprints" where we were in three groups evenly spaced (120 degrees apart for you mathemeticians) as we proceeded around the track with spurts of fast running. I found I could not keep up with my group and every now and then dropped back to the group behind me and ran along with that group for awhile, then dropped back again, and so on.

 

[nwdisgal]

Actually, I was surprised about the comment on NC schools. I don't have a child in that school system, but I've followed some noted experts on learning disabilities out of Chapel Hill - Mel Levine being one of them.

I've heard the University of North Carolina is noted across the country for their research in learning disabilities. I'm puzzled that all the work they are doing isn't having some influence/trickle down effect on the local schools with their proximaty to that particular resource.

 

[mlwear]

Lots of good comments here.
I will add a few of my own. First, if the parents won't be proactive, the kid will get trampled on by the system. Harsh, but a reality. The squeaky wheel...At times it has been a near full time job for me to get the services my child needs. I would like for him to have better services, but I have to settle for what he needs and what is appropriate as that is all he is entitled to by law. I have supplemented these services at my own expense.
Regarding the states. I have lived in NY when my oldest son had a speech delay and I have lived in Virginia battling special ed. services. Someone once told me that it really doesn't matter where you live because the educational needs of the child are governed by Federal laws, so you can get the same thing no matter where you are. This is true. I have seen kids in Virginia get next to nothing (typically, kids whose parents just let the schools take over) and I have seen kids who get EVERYTHING. That being said, I did find that NY was more willing to offer services. I believe this is because taxes are higher and they have more money to do so. Regarding North Carolina, particularly in the field of autism, it would be my choice of states to move to because my son (autistic) uses TEACCH primarily.
Regarding ESY. I would be concerned regarding a comment made in another post. My son's ESY recommendation paperwork says (I just checked to be sure) that if he meets ANY of the criteria then ESY should be considered by the IEP team. His lists 6. States may have different forms, though, but 4 out of 5 seems very rigid. In order to get ESY, you must DOCUMENT and document and document. Right now, mom needs to record in every way the regression of the child since last school year. I can't remember off the top of my head the exact rule, but the regression must be to the degree that it cannot be made up within a certain amount of time. Use some sort of communication book with the teacher to get her notes showing regression. Mom or advocate will need to be able to compare from the end of last school year to the beginning of next. ESY services are hard to get here. The big battle. Last year, I had many IEP members who were on my son's side and he received a good amount. His regression is very obvious, though. Having many members on the IEP team on your side helps. Central office was not happy, but it was 6 against 1 and the principal stayed neutral.
Re: Repeating fifth grade. It might be something to keep in the back of mom's mind. Often if the child is expected to attend public school until age 21, fifth grade is often a grade students repeat.
Remind mom and dad that they are part of the IEP team. They are their daughter's voice.
They are so fortunate to have you as a good friend and a willing advocate. It would be great if Mom would call for an IEP meeting while you are present. At the very least, maybe she can request a "team meeting" to discuss the child's progress and if IEP accomodations are being implemented or could be implemented in different ways while you are there. Maybe if mom and dad see how you go into the meeting with confidence, it will inspire them and they will not feel so akward.

 

[Forevryoung]

Thank you Mlwear- your post was very helpful.

Maybe it is because I am a perpetual optimist that I have always dreamed of her graduating with the rest of her class and moving in with me to go to a community college (or other suitable higher learning institution). Maybe my dreams wont turn out that way but if given the life-skills I truely believe that she would be able to take care of herself. PT and OT have not given her basic living skills.

For example: She was never taught how to open a door. To get into her house she has to have someone home who hears that she is at the door (one day her sister was watching TV upstairs and didn't hear the doorbell). Instead, the occupational therapist "wasted" time teaching her how to tie shoes. She can tie shoes but the shoe has to be placed on her lap facing her . She can't reach her foot to tie her own shoes but she can tie mine!

We shall see what the future will bring. I have little say anyway
Thanks guys for your support.

 

[rjthkids]

I would like for him to have better services, but I have to settle for what he needs and what is appropriate as that is all he is entitled to by law. I have supplemented these services at my own expense.
Regarding the states. I have lived in NY when my oldest son had a speech delay and I have lived in Virginia battling special ed. services. Someone once told me that it really doesn't matter where you live because the educational needs of the child are governed by Federal laws, so you can get the same thing no matter where you are. This is true. I have seen kids in Virginia get next to nothing (typically, kids whose parents just let the schools take over) and I have seen kids who get EVERYTHING.

I just want to second this. Before I became a full time SAHM, I was an educational advocate for the Department of Youth Services in Massachusetts. I had over 389 kids on my caseload in twenty school districts, and it was my job to make sure that all of them received the maximum educational benefits allowed by law. I have taken more than one school system to court for lack of services.

That being said, special education services are primarily regulated by Federal statues and not state statutes. IDEA is the cornerstone of rights granted to special education students under federal law. A few years back, there was a significant change to SPED law, in which the standard of education went from "maximum educational benefit" to "free and appropriate education."

I can not begin to tell you how much of a difference there is between MEB and FAPE. With MEB, the pressure was on a school district to prove that an educational service had no value for a student if they wanted to deny a parents request. With FAPE, the burden is basically on the parents to prove that a child will suffer educational harm or be blocked from an appropriate education without the proposed services. Of course, the word "appropriate" is ultimately subjective and ultimately ends up being decided by the courts when there is a dispute that goes that far. "Appropriate" education has thus far been legally defined in court challenges to refer to equal educational access as nondisabled peers. In order to receive summer school from a resistant school district, one would need to be able to prove that the skills she would lose over the summertime are *greater* than the skills a nondisabled student would lose, AND that losing these skills would deny her access to an equal and appropriate education when school resumed. It can't just be your opinion, you would need to have her evaluated at the very end of the school year and the very beginning of the next school year. With FAPE, the onus of proof is now the on the parents and the family. That being said, if a parent can prove that their child has been systematically denied FAPE, they are entitled to amelioration.

I don't know what her parents health insurance looks like, but I would highly suggest looking to get supplemental instruction through them. I homeschool my blind daughter and we receive 2500 dollars a month for special education services each month(orientation and mobility, speech and language, occupational therapy, braille equipment). I know not everyone is as fortunate in that regard, but I've totally passed on any services through our LEA and I do it all myself.

I also wanted to mention, it is the parents who have to take the lead in this. As much as you want to help, unless they are willing to press or fight for services, sadly there isn't much you can do. If they are willing to let you pay for an educational advocate, that could help so long as the educational advocate is specifically representing her parents and her. But, as a friend of the family's, you would have next to no standing at an IEP meeting.

 

[teacherforhi]

Regarding ESY. I would be concerned regarding a comment made in another post. My son's ESY recommendation paperwork says (I just checked to be sure) that if he meets ANY of the criteria then ESY should be considered by the IEP team. His lists 6. States may have different forms, though, but 4 out of 5 seems very rigid. In order to get ESY, you must DOCUMENT and document and document. Right now, mom needs to record in every way the regression of the child since last school year. I can't remember off the top of my head the exact rule, but the regression must be to the degree that it cannot be made up within a certain amount of time. Use some sort of communication book with the teacher to get her notes showing regression. Mom or advocate will need to be able to compare from the end of last school year to the beginning of next. ESY services are hard to get here. The big battle. Last year, I had many IEP members who were on my son's side and he received a good amount. His regression is very obvious, though. Having many members on the IEP team on your side helps. Central office was not happy, but it was 6 against 1 and the principal stayed neutral.

Four out of five of the objectives aren't really difficult to meet because many times they go hand-in-hand. If a child regresses a significant amount over time, then they aren't going to be making adequate progress toward their IEP goals. If there has been an interruption in service, then they probably won't be making adequate progress either. If the student regresses significantly, then it would be hard to say that the school system was providing FAPE if the student had to start over every school year. One of the five is also that a parent agree to make their child available. So really, you only have to prove three of the other conditions.

ESY should always be considered by an IEP team. But just because it is considered, doesn't mean the child will qualify. Unfortunately, one of the hardest things to prove is regression. That's why it's important to make sure that there is documentation following your child from one school year to the next.

 

[wide awake]

As the parent of an autistic child and a teacher I've sat on both sides of the desk. The PP's statements that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" are true. If the parents or a strong advocate aren't willing to fight at the IEP the child will get the least amount the school district can possibly get by with. Now I'll say something that isn't so easy to say or for you to read...5th grade is a BIG deal...by that time students should be able read to learn, not learn to read, the analytical skills are coming in...perhaps this student cannot do it right now, no matter how much help is given...and perhaps mom understands this on some level and is afraid of a showdown...I don't know the child or the parents so I could be WAYYY off base. Lots of times I read letters from parents on the DIS, and you can tell they don't want to know yet...sort of sifting around the edges.

 

[Forevryoung]

As the parent of an autistic child and a teacher I've sat on both sides of the desk. The PP's statements that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" are true. If the parents or a strong advocate aren't willing to fight at the IEP the child will get the least amount the school district can possibly get by with. Now I'll say something that isn't so easy to say or for you to read...5th grade is a BIG deal...by that time students should be able read to learn, not learn to read, the analytical skills are coming in...perhaps this student cannot do it right now, no matter how much help is given...and perhaps mom understands this on some level and is afraid of a showdown...I don't know the child or the parents so I could be WAYYY off base. Lots of times I read letters from parents on the DIS, and you can tell they don't want to know yet...sort of sifting around the edges.

So true- 5th grade is a huge year and if she has to repeat it then so be it BUT she should have all the supports in place on the FIRST try- not just the second. She has extreme difficulty "reading to learn" because she has short term memory issues but I dont think anyone (in the school system) has helped her find a way to combat the issues. I wish I could teach her myself but I am too far away. She has trouble with common sense things. I guess I just dont want to see her emotionally destroyed because everything wasn't done by the school system and her parents. I understand that sometimes these things are necessary and life isn't always fair

About the IEP meeting- I have no say and I understand that but at least I can try to figure out possible solutions to suggest to the parents. They have been dealing with school districts for 6+ years to get her services and I still feel more educated then them If they need to have this meeting anyway and I can be present, I think it would be a huge help to the parents to have that support there.

 

[SueM in MN]

For example: She was never taught how to open a door. To get into her house she has to have someone home who hears that she is at the door (one day her sister was watching TV upstairs and didn't hear the doorbell). Instead, the occupational therapist "wasted" time teaching her how to tie shoes. She can tie shoes but the shoe has to be placed on her lap facing her . She can't reach her foot to tie her own shoes but she can tie mine!

We shall see what the future will bring. I have little say anyway
Thanks guys for your support.

I just wanted to mention that being able to tie is many times not taught because it's expected the person will be able to tie their own shoe. It's more often taught because it's a pretty complex fine motor skill with quite a few steps. It helps with finger dexterity, motor planning and hand-eye coordination. So, even though it looked like "wasted" time to you, learning to do it helps build other skills that might be more useful to the person.

Also, opening the door may or may not have been something they worked on at school. Not being able to open it may be because of many factors other than not having been taught (how heavy is the door, is the doorknob accessible enough for the person to turn it, does the person have the range of motion to turn it enough to open it, is there space to bring the wheelchair into position to turn the knob, get the door open and get thru the door with the wheelchair, etc).
My DD was never taught specifically how to open a door and get her wheelchair thru, but since she has worked on motor planning and wheelchair driving skills over the years, she figured out how to do it herself. But, even though she knows how, because of all the factors I mentioned, she isn't able to open every door she comes to.

An additional factor is what the schools were told they could teach. In my DD's case, we said the school could work on any self help skills. But, her Special Ed teacher told me that I was one of the few parents who said that. A lot didn't want their children working on specific things like cooking, laundry, etc. because their children would not be capable of doing it totally independently (and always using good judgement while doing it).