UY Question - in Final Year

[Stargazer65]

Do you think no one would do it?

Sure...dues are like DVC taxes, and everybody has to pay taxes!

*Everybody* has to pay taxes!- Even businessmen, that rob and steal and cheat from people everyday, even *they* have to pay *taxes*! -Lennie Pike

 

[Simba's Mom]

What happened to OKW extension that made it a disaster?

The whole thing was a disaster for us, but no one else has mentioned this, so maybe I should. When we were contacted by our guide, I pointed out that since we'll be in our 90s in 2042, we had no interest in an extension. He said all members had to respond, and now that we had, we'd be receiving our "gift". Shortly thereafter, we received a nice OKW lithograph. Just before our next vacation we received ANOTHER call, this time from MS, admitting that some of those lithographs had been sent out by mistake(!), that they were only to be sent to those members who had extended their contract to 2057, and those who didn't had to come to their offices and sign something, or send something notarized refusing the extension. So we had to take time from our vacation to take the bus to SSR to sign the documents. I felt we were really being pressured to extend to 2057. Did anyone else who didn't extend have any secondary call?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

The whole thing was a disaster for us, but no one else has mentioned this, so maybe I should. When we were contacted by our guide, I pointed out that since we'll be in our 90s in 2042, we had no interest in an extension. He said all members had to respond, and now that we had, we'd be receiving our "gift". Shortly thereafter, we received a nice OKW lithograph. Just before our next vacation we received ANOTHER call, this time from MS, admitting that some of those lithographs had been sent out by mistake(!), that they were only to be sent to those members who had extended their contract to 2057, and those who didn't had to come to their offices and sign something, or send something notarized refusing the extension. So we had to take time from our vacation to take the bus to SSR to sign the documents. I felt we were really being pressured to extend to 2057. Did anyone else who didn't extend have any secondary call?

Did any of your reservations get canceled ?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Just thinking out loud here,
dont the original un modified deeds still say they expire on 1/31/42?

for they owners that didn’t op in to the extension, there deed expires then…. What give them the right to keep using points they don’t own anymore ?

I admit that I haven’t put any research into this but, I must be missing something

 

[Genie+]

I doubt they’ll sell 15 year or similar extensions near expiration time. The price per point per year would need to be much higher. Right now active direct is selling around $3 to $4pp (broken down over the length of 40 or 50 year contracts). Getting our money today toward usage decades from now is similar to the difference between a 15yr and 30yr mortgage where interest paid can triple or more. It’s kinda the flipside of that, where we are the ‘lender’. The longer ahead we are buying, the more value that money today is for them.

OKW - depends on what else is going on across DVC and ratio of quitclaims. My guess is some very attractive incentives tied to ‘flipping’ 2042 contracts into whatever new resorts happen. Buying back last points is interesting too, could work to their overall advantage. In the years right before 2042, will people prefer ‘Flipping Incentives’ or ‘Magic Endings’ over the unknown of how unextended contracts play out. And dues that make trading out hurt is a big reason more people don’t buy for 10pt/nt studios and huge 35pt 2BRs. Get that ratio of quitclaims up then let holdouts pay the higher than average dues that keep the sprawling resort functional. This could go down quieter than expected. In the end they might just fight people testing their luck at not paying dues after 2042, and I don’t think that risks negative publicity.

Pretty sure adjustments will be made specifically to address point usage and dues in the final stretch of 2042 resorts. Somehow they’ll need to make sure dues get paid on borrowed points. They’ll have to manage demand and availability to avoid a tsunami. They’ll position themselves to take advantage of the opportunity to sell new contracts.

 

[Genie+]

Just thinking out loud here,
dont the original un modified deeds still say they expire on 1/31/42?

for they owners that didn’t op in to the extension, there deed expires then…. What give them the right to keep using points they don’t own anymore ?

I admit that I haven’t put any research into this but, I must be missing something

There’s also other wording

The date in question is Jan, 2042. Technically as I read the POS, the ending date on the contract is the expiration of the ground lease, not necessarily the date itself. That is the reason that they need those declining to sign over a deed rather than just an ackowledgement. In a sense they did strong arm the issue with the threat of a special assessment, which as I read the POS, they do not have the authority to enforce. I do realize their predicament given the setup of the system in trying to come up with an extension plan, esp if they were going to charge for it.

This is what opened the can of worms. If the original owners’ contract says expiration of the ground lease and DVD extended that 2057… then were the original contracts inadvertently extended as well.

 

[kilik64]

So based on some actual numbers around ~25% of okw is extended as of now. (Roughly 19% of owners bought, another 5% or so of points sold direct with the new extended date since the extension was done.) There is no real data on how many signed the quitclaim deeds right? So complete guess and assumption, but lets say 10% never signed. Let's also say another 5% of points turnover via direct sale with the new date, we are now up to around ~45% of the points covered after 2042. (could be lower if those who never signed quitclaim lose the proposed court battle that it'll bring (which at that point could be the heirs of the original owners, lets face it the OG owners are getting old...))

Da heck is DVC gonna do with over half the resort that they cant just package up and sale easily? Will there be a firesale for okw direct points? Its not a huge cash resort draw, so if they dont do something will a lot of it just sit unoccupied for those 15 years? Since dvc would own the points they'd be on the hook for over half the dues for the resort at that point. Would they just make the cash rates pretty cheap just to get people there to help fray those costs in some way?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

There’s also other wording



This is what opened the can of worms. If the original owners’ contract says expiration of the ground lease and DVD extended that 2057… then were the original contracts inadvertently extended as well.

Great, what is that other wording, and how does it make a deed that should expire in 2042 survive until 2057...


Edit: Never mind I found a deed and the ground lease.....

whoops, wonder if any one got fired?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

So based on some actual numbers around ~25% of okw is extended as of now. (Roughly 19% of owners bought, another 5% or so of points sold direct with the new extended date since the extension was done.) There is no real data on how many signed the quitclaim deeds right? So complete guess and assumption, but lets say 10% never signed. Let's also say another 5% of points turnover via direct sale with the new date, we are now up to around ~45% of the points covered after 2042. (could be lower if those who never signed quitclaim lose the proposed court battle that it'll bring (which at that point could be the heirs of the original owners, lets face it the OG owners are getting old...))

Da heck is DVC gonna do with over half the resort that they cant just package up and sale easily? Will there be a firesale for okw direct points? Its not a huge cash resort draw, so if they dont do something will a lot of it just sit unoccupied for those 15 years? Since dvc would own the points they'd be on the hook for over half the dues for the resort at that point. Would they just make the cash rates pretty cheap just to get people there to help fray those costs in some way?

Rent for cash,
Bulldoze and build something new. Riviera is built on what was once part of CBR.

The art of aggravation was originally going to be three decades of the pop... Disney has a way of hooking a left when it sees a squirrel

 

[Sandisw]

But Disney told owners that to get the extension they had to pay. But having extended the lease, they already had rights to the extension. Disney sold them what they already had. Could someone cry "fraud"?

Potentially, they could. I just don’t think it’s would that easy because someone would have to already taken it to court that they get to keep it to 2057 for free…assuming Disney decided to block those owners.

It is a double edge sword for sure. I think Disney will have to decide what option is the least disruptive and less costly.

 

[chalee94]

Rent for cash,
Bulldoze and build something new. Riviera is built on what was once part of CBR.

The demand isn't really there to rent for cash. It's a very very large resort.

While there has been speculation that they might like to try to shutter half of the resort to save money, technically, the remaining 50% of OKW-2057 owners would still likely own parts of the actual units across the entire resort. So shuttering (much less bulldozing) whole buildings would probably not be a legal option.

(Maybe Disney could use the points they own to house college student CMs temporarily or something...)

Owning OKW-2057 does come with some question marks.

This is why it makes me laugh when newbies suggest that Disney might extend one of the other 2042 resorts...

 

[Robbie Cottam]

The demand isn't really there to rent for cash. It's a very very large resort.

While there has been speculation that they might like to try to shutter half of the resort to save money, technically, the remaining 50% of OKW-2057 owners would still likely own parts of the actual units across the entire resort. So shuttering (much less bulldozing) whole buildings would probably not be a legal option.

(Maybe Disney could use the points they own to house college student CMs temporarily or something...)

Owning OKW-2057 does come with some question marks.

This is why it makes me laugh when newbies suggest that Disney might extend one of the other 2042 resorts...

I'm sure they could do some type of deed swap. Get all of the owners in as few buildings as possible?
Although, that might lead to the same issue....

 

[chalee94]

Great, what is that other wording, and how does it make a deed that should expire in 2042 survive until 2057...

Yeah, there are also several old threads that get into the details.

Edit: Never mind I found a deed and the ground lease.....

whoops, wonder if any one got fired?

They got canned later for the Aulani dues debacle but it was basically the same group of over-aggressive execs...

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/201...s-amid-financial-issues-with-hawaiian-resort/

However, on August 12, 2011, Disney suspended Aulani's timeshare sales and dismissed three executives, including Disney Vacation Club president Jim Lewis. This action was taken after senior management realized the (announced) annual dues had been set too low to cover maintenance costs.

Edited to add: the OKW extension apparently pulled in (some say) $20 million in revenue from something they didn't legally have the right to sell, so that's a pretty good return from one perspective...

The execs in the early 2040s may have some big headaches but those guys from 2007 will long be retired to a private island by then...

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Yeah, there are also several old threads that get into the details.


They got canned later for the Aulani dues debacle but it was basically the same group of over-aggressive execs...

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/201...s-amid-financial-issues-with-hawaiian-resort/

However, on August 12, 2011, Disney suspended Aulani's timeshare sales and dismissed three executives, including Disney Vacation Club president Jim Lewis. This action was taken after senior management realized the (announced) annual dues had been set too low to cover maintenance costs.

Edited to add: the OKW extension apparently pulled in (some say) $20 million in revenue from something they didn't legally have the right to sell, so that's a pretty good return from one perspective...

The execs in the early 2040s may have some big headaches but those guys from 2007 will long be retired to a private island by then...

Wasn't that about the same time they played with the points charts and got sued, also?

 

[chalee94]

Wasn't that about the same time they played with the points charts and got sued, also?

I want to say the sketchy adjustments to the point charts (magic words: "lockoff premium") were just the past few years.

They did reallocate points between weeknights and weekends around that time, but as sweet as 8 pts per night at OKW used to be, it was definitely a valid change.

There was a sketchy change with SSR where they reallocated points with the treehouses that probably should have resulted in a lawsuit but seems like the SSR owners just went with it...

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I want to say the sketchy adjustments to the point charts (magic words: "lockoff premium") were just the past few years.

They did reallocate points between weeknights and weekends around that time, but as sweet as 8 pts per night at OKW used to be, it was definitely a valid change.

There was a sketchy change with SSR where they reallocated points with the treehouses that probably should have resulted in a lawsuit but seems like the SSR owners just went with it...

I'm an SSR owner I don't actually remember that...... I do remember when they declared preferred and standard locations. I agreed with it, and I'm ok with it, but I could see how some could get bent out of shape over it..... Is that what you are referring too>?

 

[chalee94]

I'm an SSR owner I don't actually remember that...... I do remember when they declared preferred and standard locations. I agreed with it, and I'm ok with it, but I could see how some could get bent out of shape over it..... Is that what you are referring too>?

I don't own SSR so didn't pay attention to details - zavandor probably knows.

The treehouses were originally marketed as being a great deal when they were sold as a new addition to SSR.

Then later treehouse point charts were increased across the board...with the extra points allocated to the treehouses benefiting the former SSR owners who saw cheaper studios and such available.

Not sure they had the right to do that but it benefited most owners so not a lot of legal pushback.

Edited to add: DVC definitely has the right to reallocate point charts across seasons, but reallocating across room types (resulting in higher treehouse villa costs for every season) technically violated the contractual language and early marketing materials, IIRC.

 

[Sandisw]

Rent for cash,
Bulldoze and build something new. Riviera is built on what was once part of CBR.

The art of aggravation was originally going to be three decades of the pop... Disney has a way of hooking a left when it sees a squirrel

They can’t bulldoze any of the buildings until 2057 since there are owners who have extended contracts in every building.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't own SSR so didn't pay attention to details - zavandor probably knows.

The treehouses were originally marketed as being a great deal when they were sold as a new addition to SSR.

Then later treehouse point charts were increased across the board...with the extra points allocated to the treehouses benefiting the former SSR owners who saw cheaper studios and such available.

Not sure they had the right to do that but it benefited most owners so not a lot of legal pushback.

Edited to add: DVC definitely has the right to reallocate point charts across seasons, but reallocating across room types (resulting in higher treehouse villa costs for every season) technically violated the contractual language and early marketing materials, IIRC.

The legality of reallocating the points across units for bookings has never been tested in the courts. Some think it can’t be done and others do, as long as total points sold stay correct.

I have not found enough info to support strongly one way or the other as much of what I find deals with sale of points. I tend to lean that the benefit to the membership to reallocate the entire resort makes it allowed, but can’t say for sure.

With the treehouses, they basically increased it because of the demand on those units..they booked so quickly year round that it made sense. But, it certainly was marketed as a 3 bedroom for the same points as a 2 bedroom…and the change was done pretty quickly after it sold out which is what upset people.

 

[mclayton1965]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't find the answer. What happens in the final year of ownership if you have a late UY? Let say for example, the contract is for a 2042 property. On Jan 2041, you are charged your membership dues--or start paying them monthly--but if you have a UY of December, you only have a short time to use your points before your entire contract expires on Jan 31, 2042. Either something is going to be worked out about this situation or there's going to be a mad, mad rush to use points in that two month window before they expire at the end of Jan--especially for those with large contracts? I'm sure that I'm missing something obvious. Just point me in the right direction. This question is one more of curiosity than anything else. My current contracts are Feb and Sept, but I was eying some other contracts and wondering, How would that work?

I was hoping someone could answer this question for me, too. I just became a DVC member and I asked the resale agent this same question because I have a December UY and was concerned that I would have to use ALL my December 2041 points by January 31st, 20242. He told me that I would have full use and benefits of my points . Meaning they would not expire until November 30th, 2042 and I would still have the benefit of banking my points by July 31st, 2042 and that those banked points wouldn't expire until November 30th, 2043. Now I'm wondering if I've been misinformed or if I misunderstood the agent??? If anyone can shed some more light on this I would Greatly appreciated!