*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

[OtherScott]

A stay at a WDW resort is relaxing. Very ex*****ive, but relaxing.

A trip to the busiest theme park in the world with $100 million rides isn't usually sought out for someone wanting to relax.

-Jason

Relaxing in the relative sense, this is where your opinion diverges with Disney's. More that a few posters have reported feeling "more" relaxed (relative to other Disney trips) by knowing they don't have to work for a satisfactory experience.

But at least Disney driving more schmoes out of their beds and into rope drop lines has quieted those who suggested just that as a remedy to the schmoes whining about being iced out of FPs.

 

[Davey Jones II]

This thread reports a 220 minute wait for Soarin':

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3254295

Even for spring break, that is a freakish wait time -- particularly when spring break crowds are dispersed this year. How can FP+ not be aggravating the situation?

 

[OtherScott]

This thread reports a 220 minute wait for Soarin':

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3254295

Even for spring break, that is a freakish wait time -- particularly when spring break crowds are dispersed this year. How can FP+ not be aggravating the situation?

130 on touring plans 8 minutes ago.

EDIT: 220 minutes was yesterday

 

[KatieCharlotte]

I agree that it hasn't hit the peak yet, but I think that's whats so interesting. So many people complaining about way bigger lines than they are used to, but spring breaks don't look as impactful as they should be.

Of course, we don't have any hard data on wait times for the last couple weeks, only anecdotal reports, but, after reading so many of them they are becoming quite convincing.

Wondering what the thoughts are on this.

I'm not at all surprised. Just a few of the many factors involved: (1) FP was used most by people who cared most about avoiding lines (and were more likely to complain about lines online) -- Now we're limited in how many lines we can avoid, and people who don't care so much are using more FP. (2) Tiers mean outrageous numbers of people use FP+ for rides that they might not otherwise have even bothered to ride. (3) FP+ is not efficient and especially slows down loading on certain rides. (4) FP+ has significantly changed crowd flow, making it frustrating for people who could predict those things based on past data. (5) Lines for kiosks and FP+ return create clogged walkways.

I would also not be surprised if attendance was up in general. But not because exciting FP+ ads are drawing in guests.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I'm not at all surprised. Just a few of the many factors involved: (1) FP was used most by people who cared most about avoiding lines (and were more likely to complain about lines online) -- Now we're limited in how many lines we can avoid, and people who don't care so much are using more FP. (2) Tiers mean outrageous numbers of people use FP+ for rides that they might not otherwise have even bothered to ride. (3) FP+ is not efficient and especially slows down loading on certain rides. (4) FP+ has significantly changed crowd flow, making it frustrating for people who could predict those things based on past data. (5) Lines for kiosks and FP+ return create clogged walkways.

I would also not be surprised if attendance was up in general. But not because exciting FP+ ads are drawing in guests.

Dare we hope that Disney will learn, once and for all, what really draws guests to their parks?

HINT: It has something to do with new rides and attractions.

 

[mmbl]

Dare we hope that Disney will learn, once and for all, what really draws guests to their parks? HINT: It has something to do with new rides and attractions.

Dare we hope they actually care?

 

[Shaden]

I'm not at all surprised. Just a few of the many factors involved: (1) FP was used most by people who cared most about avoiding lines (and were more likely to complain about lines online) -- Now we're limited in how many lines we can avoid, and people who don't care so much are using more FP. (2) Tiers mean outrageous numbers of people use FP+ for rides that they might not otherwise have even bothered to ride. (3) FP+ is not efficient and especially slows down loading on certain rides. (4) FP+ has significantly changed crowd flow, making it frustrating for people who could predict those things based on past data. (5) Lines for kiosks and FP+ return create clogged walkways.

I would also not be surprised if attendance was up in general. But not because exciting FP+ ads are drawing in guests.

Some very solid points !

We know that attendance isn't really up though, Josh at easy wdw noted there has been a 1.5% increase, which can not account for the increases in wait times noted in the first link from this thread.

Dare we hope that Disney will learn, once and for all, what really draws guests to their parks?

HINT: It has something to do with new rides and attractions.

Dare we hope they actually care?

I am with you both.
I still think Disney is going to get a long time return on the investment in MM+ ... FP+ ... well that is another story, I have a feeling this is going to look more and more like FP-, but with online pre-booking, which will admittedly still be a significant difference.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Some very solid points !

We know that attendance isn't really up though, Josh at easy wdw noted there has been a 1.5% increase, which can not account for the increases in wait times noted in the first link from this thread.

As discussed earlier in this thread, even that tiny attendance increase is directly attributable to the godawful winter that has smacked the east coast. As just one example, I've read news stories about an increase in the number of Canadians fleeing south this winter. Of course WDW will get their share.

I don't know if Disney was delusional enough to think that FP+ would actually lead to an increase in attendance. But what really bothers me is this: the WDC always seems so painfully reluctant to build new attractions, crying poverty when it comes to expansions and seldom going all out on the few projects that they do greenlight. Yet, when someone dangled the prospect of installing an IT system that they believe will manipulate guests into buying more merch, they had no trouble finding over a billion dollars to spend on THAT.

They don't seem to care if overcrowding makes guests miserable or if there are enough rides to absorb the crowds, or if there is not much new since the last time we visited. Their priority was to continue treating the parks like a giant mall.

It pains me to write stuff like this, because I really do love the parks, and my theme park vacations mean more to me than any jaded, out-of-touch board of directors will ever know. And I still prefer Disney to Universal, but man is the competition closing the gap. Universal gets it; they understand the business they're in. They're building and building at a frantic pace, while Disney seems more concerned with their endless and stubborn campaign to get us to buy Duffy and Glow with the Show ears.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Uh oh. The Thread Killer strikes again

 

[Shaden]

Hahahaha, I figured the same thing.

This was a good discussion though, even with the data about expected Spring break crowds, people are still arguing its just that spring break has been worse than last year this year because more schools are out (though that doesn't appear to be the case) ...

I think a lot was hashed out, in the newer threads people keep discussing this issue as if we don't have data on wait times, like

"Wait times haven't increased, they are the same as last year"
of "If wait times increase ..."
or
"there has been a huge spike in attendance..."

And I have tried time and time again to just point people to the links with the data, and then they just ignore them

 

[Davey Jones II]

Human nature. People believe what they want, and ignore evidence that contradicts their point of view. And there are certainly people on these boards who want to believe that Disney can do no wrong.

 

[MaryKatesMom]

Relaxing in the relative sense, this is where your opinion diverges with Disney's. More that a few posters have reported feeling "more" relaxed (relative to other Disney trips) by knowing they don't have to work for a satisfactory experience.

But at least Disney driving more schmoes out of their beds and into rope drop lines has quieted those who suggested just that as a remedy to the schmoes whining about being iced out of FPs.

I spent quite a bit of time scheduling my FP+ ahead of time add that to trying to fit in our must do TS restaurants for lunch and dinner.

I am also checking every day for the Parade to be added which will, of course, eliminate PoTC from my schedule.

I find NONE of that relaxing.

In addition, I am even more scheduled out than I want to be. I do relax at the waterparks however, with the limited flexibility, I can not wake up and decide day of if I want to go. Can't lose those FP+ because I won't be able to reschedule my FP+ during crowd 9-10 levels.

If I want a relaxing by the pool/beach/golf vacation there are better options and other places I prefer. I don't like feeling the "Theme Park" has gone out of my "Theme Park Vacation".

I'm not at all surprised. Just a few of the many factors involved: (1) FP was used most by people who cared most about avoiding lines (and were more likely to complain about lines online) -- Now we're limited in how many lines we can avoid, and people who don't care so much are using more FP. (2) Tiers mean outrageous numbers of people use FP+ for rides that they might not otherwise have even bothered to ride. (3) FP+ is not efficient and especially slows down loading on certain rides. (4) FP+ has significantly changed crowd flow, making it frustrating for people who could predict those things based on past data. (5) Lines for kiosks and FP+ return create clogged walkways.

I would also not be surprised if attendance was up in general. But not because exciting FP+ ads are drawing in guests.

Yep. I will come clean and admit I do not like standing in line. If a restaurant does not take reservations. I would never go there on a Sat. night. I've been on every ride at WDW none of them are now worth an hour wait.

Figment now has a standby line with a wait time! All I can say is WOW!

I agree with everything you've said and add one. FP+ starts at park opening which it never did before. RD just got harder. I would bet between 9:45 and 10:15 AM there is a huge FP+ line at Soarin'.

 

[Davey Jones II]

What we're seeing is grotesque distortions in the usual wait time patterns, which is the result of Disney manipulating the public through FP+. Sad that they prefer to play manipulative games rather than simply giving us what we want.

The following article does a great job of breaking down exactly what Disney is doing, and why. I posted a link to this article in another thread, but it certainly belongs here, too:

http://micechat.com/62433-disneys-m.../News+(MiceChat:+A+Different+Look+At+Disney+)

 

[tlady]

What we're seeing is grotesque distortions in the usual wait time patterns, which is the result of Disney manipulating the public through FP+. Sad that they prefer to play manipulative games rather than simply giving us what we want.

The following article does a great job of breaking down exactly what Disney is doing, and why. I posted a link to this article in another thread, but it certainly belongs here, too:

http://micechat.com/62433-disneys-m.../News+(MiceChat:+A+Different+Look+At+Disney+)

Wow. That article is a real eye opener. Basically, it pretty much confirms a lot of what I had been suspecting about the true intent behind Disney's new MDE system and especially about the FP+ aspect of it. I find it sad, depressing, and disgusting all at the same time. But, most of all, it angers me to no end.

I do suspect WDW will "tinker" with the FP+ system, but that's all it will be doing - tinkering with it. MDE and the horrid FP+ is not going away and, short of building new rides (which this article makes clear is not Disney's new goal), there is not much they can do to mitigate the disaster that FP+ has created in the parks.

This article also confirms what I've been thinking and saying for some time now - As long as Disney can lure in new customers (who don't know enough to realize how badly things have changed) and can continue to lure back enough Disney die-hards despite the deteriorating park experiences, they have ZERO incentive to change anything. Again, it's always about the bottom line, not about your experience as a paying guest.

One thing I've already decided is that, whenever my family next returns to the Orlando area, 100% of our time will be spent at Universal. As it now stands, we are already dividing up our next trip (in 2 weeks), spending nearly equal amounts of time at WDW and Universal. Beyond that trip, it will be Universal all the way for us, unless WDW shows real signs of a major overhaul in their marketing strategy.

 

[tlady]

As discussed earlier in this thread, even that tiny attendance increase is directly attributable to the godawful winter that has smacked the east coast. As just one example, I've read news stories about an increase in the number of Canadians fleeing south this winter. Of course WDW will get their share.

I don't know if Disney was delusional enough to think that FP+ would actually lead to an increase in attendance. But what really bothers me is this: the WDC always seems so painfully reluctant to build new attractions, crying poverty when it comes to expansions and seldom going all out on the few projects that they do greenlight. Yet, when someone dangled the prospect of installing an IT system that they believe will manipulate guests into buying more merch, they had no trouble finding over a billion dollars to spend on THAT.

They don't seem to care if overcrowding makes guests miserable or if there are enough rides to absorb the crowds, or if there is not much new since the last time we visited. Their priority was to continue treating the parks like a giant mall.

It pains me to write stuff like this, because I really do love the parks, and my theme park vacations mean more to me than any jaded, out-of-touch board of directors will ever know. And I still prefer Disney to Universal, but man is the competition closing the gap. Universal gets it; they understand the business they're in. They're building and building at a frantic pace, while Disney seems more concerned with their endless and stubborn campaign to get us to buy Duffy and Glow with the Show ears.

Just curious - when will your anger and frustration levels reach a point where they dwarf your love of the parks and WDW? Enough so that you take your $$ and spend it elsewhere?

Because, unless enough people react in this way (saying "ciao" to WDW even if only temporarily), Disney will continue merrily on its way.

I have already reached that point and have decided my next trip to WDW (in 2 weeks) will be my last for a long time. Even at that, we are splitting this next trip between WDW and Universal. Went to Universal a couple of years ago for Spring Break and loved it. The experience at Uni keeps improving, whereas the one at WDW keeps declining, for me.

I agree with you that Universal is fast closing the gap with Disney. They do GET IT. They truly understand that what keeps people coming back to their parks are the new rides and experiences that they keep creating, not some costly new technology that turns a Mickey "green" or looks cool on your wrist.

 

[akadada]

Just curious - when will your anger and frustration levels reach a point where they dwarf your love of the parks and WDW? Enough so that you take your $$ and spend it elsewhere?

First off: what a fantastic thread. I just spent the last half hour doing my best to follow and I think it's been a great debate.

We're relatively pro-Disney, although converted to offsite rental about five years ago because the onsite experience lost its appeal.

We went last October and had a decent time, overall relatively fun, nothing like we experienced in the past, but enough to plan a trip for late Fall 2014.

We then unexpectedly went again in February because my work sent me to Orlando for a week and so we added a few days to do Disney. We went to MK for just one day and had a good time meeting talking Mickey, MSEP parade and CRT, but the overall rest of the day was basically a mess; CM were absolutely horrible and our overall memory was negative. The lines were not fun as well. The FP+ system for offsite was ridiculously chaotic and crowded; so we didn't even bother. People were incredibly rude as well leaving the park. And did I say CM were horrible?

Anyway, we decided not to buy anymore park days after that and then just stayed at the hotel pool and explored non-Disney things and hotels which was pretty fun! But I don't need Disney to find a good hotel with a pool.

Long story endless, and to your question: we just called off our Fall 2014 trip at this point. None of us are excited to do it after February. My daughter doesn't even want to go; and she's 5! She had a really bad experience with a POS CM, while the crowds scared her at night because parents were losing their cool, primarily because CM were of no help in controlling crowds.

We're going to take a break from Disney for a while.

I still like this board though and also have hope that if enough people do get frustrated, good changes could come. I'm also anxious for Star Wars VII, so I can't go too far.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone offering such great thoughts, opinions, and solutions.

 

[akadada]

What we're seeing is grotesque distortions in the usual wait time patterns, which is the result of Disney manipulating the public through FP+. Sad that they prefer to play manipulative games rather than simply giving us what we want.

The following article does a great job of breaking down exactly what Disney is doing, and why. I posted a link to this article in another thread, but it certainly belongs here, too:

http://micechat.com/62433-disneys-m.../News+(MiceChat:+A+Different+Look+At+Disney+)

Great read. It felt right if I anecdotally bench marked our last 8 visits since 2005. The quality has certainly deteriorated while the costs have gone up quite a bit, and the magic seems to all but disappeared.

 

[xie]

First off: what a fantastic thread. I just spent the last half hour doing my best to follow and I think it's been a great debate.

We're relatively pro-Disney, although converted to offsite rental about five years ago because the onsite experience lost its appeal.

We went last October and had a decent time, overall relatively fun, nothing like we experienced in the past, but enough to plan a trip for late Fall 2014.

We then unexpectedly went again in February because my work sent me to Orlando for a week and so we added a few days to do Disney. We went to MK for just one day and had a good time meeting talking Mickey, MSEP parade and CRT, but the overall rest of the day was basically a mess; CM were absolutely horrible and our overall memory was negative. The lines were not fun as well. The FP+ system for offsite was ridiculously chaotic and crowded; so we didn't even bother. People were incredibly rude as well leaving the park. And did I say CM were horrible?

Anyway, we decided not to buy anymore park days after that and then just stayed at the hotel pool and explored non-Disney things and hotels which was pretty fun! But I don't need Disney to find a good hotel with a pool.

Long story endless, and to your question: we just called off our Fall 2014 trip at this point. None of us are excited to do it after February. My daughter doesn't even want to go; and she's 5! She had a really bad experience with a POS CM, while the crowds scared her at night because parents were losing their cool, primarily because CM were of no help in controlling crowds.

We're going to take a break from Disney for a while.

I still like this board though and also have hope that if enough people do get frustrated, good changes could come. I'm also anxious for Star Wars VII, so I can't go too far.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone offering such great thoughts, opinions, and solutions.

You definitely don't need Disney to find a good hotel with a pool. In fact, in those two respects - the hotel being "good" and a pool - there are many finer options in the area than Disney's resort properties, and for a lower cost.

We also had some really bad experiences in January. Disney does not have enough staff on property, neither in the parks nor the resorts. And the staff they do have are overwhelmed, overworked, and apparently afraid to do anything about out-of-line guests. There were two times I was afraid for my family's safety due to the behavior of other guests last trip, and honestly that's a new experience for me at WDW. It didn't used to be a place where I felt I needed to be hyper aware of other people, if you know what I mean. I do believe that if Disney doesn't get a handle on the crowding that there are going to be some more "road rage" type incidents in their parks.

 

[flicx]

What we're seeing is grotesque distortions in the usual wait time patterns, which is the result of Disney manipulating the public through FP+. Sad that they prefer to play manipulative games rather than simply giving us what we want.

The following article does a great job of breaking down exactly what Disney is doing, and why. I posted a link to this article in another thread, but it certainly belongs here, too:

http://micechat.com/62433-disneys-m.../News+(MiceChat:+A+Different+Look+At+Disney+)

Great article. It is what so many of us have been saying for so long now! Seems like more and more of these are cropping up. Disney could have some giant choices in the near future!

 

[Silock]

Just curious - when will your anger and frustration levels reach a point where they dwarf your love of the parks and WDW? Enough so that you take your $$ and spend it elsewhere?

We reached that point just recently. We were there in Feb of this year and did the whole MB and FP+ thing. It sucked. This was a relatively short 1 week trip.

We, along with several family members and friends, had been planning a long 14 day trip in October of next year. We had several thousand dollars saved for the trip.

We decided to cancel the trip and spent the money toward other vacations today. We will not be going back to Disney any time soon. And we go every year. Maybe 2018 or 2019 when things have worked themselves out with FP+ and Pandora has opened. But not before then. Too many attractions are in need of repair, too many stale attractions, FP+ sucked for us, and just a general feeling of the magic just not being there in the park or in its cast members.