The Running Thread--2024

[Naomeri]

"time for the 10K. I know how to do this because I did this two days ago."

I do this at half marathons at mile 10 “only a 5K left, and I can do a 5K in my sleep”

 

[prncssjas]

once the mind decides that you're finished, the body will immediately follow suit. Once the mind has given up, it's extremely difficult if not possible to "come back" from that.

100% so so so true!!!! This statement resonates very deeply!! This is where you will find me at Mile 2 of a 5k, Mile 4 of a 10k, Mile 10 of a half and Mile 22 of a full. ALL THE TIME. Thanks for sharing this.

 

[PrincessV]

I signed up for a gym membership a few summers ago so I would keep running despite the heat, and learned that I would rather run in the heat than run on a treadmill. Eventually* I cancelled the gym membership altogether.

Now I'll run when it's 85* and humid, or 25 degrees and sleeting. Just give me real life!

*Many songs will be sung, and tales written, of the trials of Caleb the Foolish and his escape from the clutches of LA Fitness. Long did he strive against his dark foe, ere he was victorious.

Every time I start thinking about dropping $$$ to replace my 30yo treadmill, I make myself run on it… that takes care of the urge real quick! There is no treadmill on earth that will make me enjoy it more than being outdoors. I’ve reached a point where if there’s lightning and I really cannot run outside, I’ll find some other indoor exercise to do instead.

Heart Rate Training Question:
I'm coming off the Disneyland Half Marathon with no other races planned, so as I transfer my focus to strength training I wanted to do some easy running. I decided to give Heart Rate Training a try. I'm doing about two 3 mile easy runs per week and one longer with some intervals.

Specifically during the 3 mile easy runs.....I like to have a pretty good cadence, or "quick turnover". I figure if I'm meant to be going slow I should at least have good form. But sometimes this gets me going a little too fast or if it's very cold and I maybe didn't get warmed up properly, my heart rate gets a bit too high and I need to take a walk break to get it back down into the prescribed zone.
If I try to just slow down my running or transition into a "jog" my speed slows down a bit, my cadence gets worse, the run isn't very fun, and even still I need some walk breaks.

So what do you think is best when it comes to heart rate training for an easy run.....going as slow as needed (despite form) in order to maintain a constant speed and HR in the Easy Zone - OR - keep great form, somewhat higher speed, but then needing to walk sometimes to reduce the HR?

Secondary question.....regardless of which method above I use I'm probably going to need a walk break at some point to return my HR to the correct zone, so do you find it better to walk just long enough to get a few points back into the correct zone, or walk long enough to get to the very bottom of the correct zone before I return to running or jogging?
*I'm using a Garmin Venu watch to see my heart rate zones during the run.

Caveat: I don’t actually do heart rate training, but I do keep an eye on HR while I train. It may be a subtle difference, but I want to be upfront!

I HAVE to take walk breaks for 2 big reasons: 1. Lung damage = diminished capacity to run for more than a few minutes at a time, and 2. Extreme heat for 6 months of the year (FL). I also have a high cadence run and find running slower to be both physically painful and unenjoyable., so I get where you're coming from

I’ve dabbled - and continue to dabble - with intervals, so I can offer my own experiences...

I am MUCH happier running with good form and my naturally high cadence than attempting to slow that down to reach a HR zone. Depending on my body and the weather, that might mean shorter run intervals, longer walk intervals, or both. There have been cool winter days when I found myself skipping walk intervals often and staying in a lower HR zone, and summer days when I couldn’t run more than 20 seconds before spiking and then needing 3x as long to walk it back down.

I’ve learned to adjust on the fly to meet the conditions. The great thing about using :30/:30 intervals is that it’s super easy to ditch them for however long I need to and then pick them back up if I want, without having to stop to re-enter settings on my app or watch. In an hour run, I might do periods of :30r/:30w, :30r/1:00w, 1:00r/:30w, 1:00r,1:00w, 2:00r/2:00w, etc. I rarely need to look to know what my HR is doing: I can mostly go by feel alone. But I’ll spot check and can say that by the time I feel done with a walk interval and ready to run again, my HR is usually at the bottom of the zone, or top of the next zone down.

Hope this helps a little!

 

[RunWI1265]

I am asking because I remember a great discussion with @DopeyBadger a while back when I asked about beets and their benefits and he shared a lot of really good research about how what's effective is really based on what makes the run seem easier.

Beets??? <<insert office gif here>>

I don't really do anything to make things easier, but I do listen to podcasts every run which I enjoy. I'm very much a solo runner. I do 99% of my training alone. But this years MW and DL races I ran with people and the miles just flew by. It was really nice! I think I will still prefer to train alone but I'll probably try to run with people again next year races.

On an unrelated note, anyone else struggling with motivation post C2C/MW/DL? I have yet to string together a 5 run week. And when I am running its 4 miles and I'm done. I forced myself to run 5 yesterday which is the longest run I've done since DL half. I'm on this loop of telling myself I deserve this rest and then telling myself what I waste it is to lose the fitness I worked so hard for.

 

[sandam1]

On an unrelated note, anyone else struggling with motivation post C2C/MW/DL? I have yet to string together a 5 run week. And when I am running its 4 miles and I'm done.

I know that last year, I struggled post-Dopey. I could get the runs in, but the results were poor and the effort was a lot higher than it should have been. Then at the end of February, it was like a light switch and everything came back together. Then I realized what it was - you know how they say one day of recovery for every mile of racing? Well, almost exactly 48 days out from Dopey, I felt better. I don't know if that was coincidence or what, but now I give myself grace for those recovery days. And even through I had a limited training cycle between Dopey and Springtime, the fitness didn't just magically disappear. I got to Springtime still feeling like I retained some of the benefits of my Dopey training.

 

[Naomeri]

Beets??? <<insert office gif here>>

I don't really do anything to make things easier, but I do listen to podcasts every run which I enjoy. I'm very much a solo runner. I do 99% of my training alone. But this years MW and DL races I ran with people and the miles just flew by. It was really nice! I think I will still prefer to train alone but I'll probably try to run with people again next year races.

On an unrelated note, anyone else struggling with motivation post C2C/MW/DL? I have yet to string together a 5 run week. And when I am running its 4 miles and I'm done. I forced myself to run 5 yesterday which is the longest run I've done since DL half. I'm on this loop of telling myself I deserve this rest and then telling myself what I waste it is to lose the fitness I worked so hard for.

I have yet to complete all scheduled runs in a week since DL, so you aren’t alone.

I’m actually trying to figure out a way to make running part of my official work goals so I have added accountability. For our personal goal, it offers a suggestion of ”Enhance your wellbeing” by completing offerings through one of our company-offered wellbeing things, and it just so happens that my chosen wellbeing goal for the year in the company health app is “Be Ready to Run the 2025 Dopey Challenge” so I think it should count. I haven’t figured out how to make it work yet, and I’d really like to be able to my weekday runs on company time (I mean, if my personal goal was to improve my excel skills through available courses, I’d be able to do that on company time so…why not running?) but I don’t actually expect that to work

 

[FFigawi]

Since I’m not currently training for anything, I’ve decided to give something new a try and use a running plan from Stryd that uses their “running power” metric to guide various workout intensities. I’ve had their footpod for awhile (I love gadgets) but have only used their “modeling” to compare it to what I expect for race times. I’ve found it to be pretty good so figured I would give their plans a try as some new variety. Starts with two weeks of “testing” (running in various zones and some fitness testing) to help make sure the zones it has calculated for me already are accurate, then I will move to one of their base-building plans. I understand calculation of running power is pretty subjective at this point between various platforms using it, but the theory behind the plans, which are developed by Steve Palladino (who I admit I have never heard of and know nothing about) is consistent with many others (e.g. run most volume at an easy pace with remainder at “hard” paces). The running power is supposed to help make sure those easy runs are easy and hard ones are the right degree of hard without over/under doing it. So sounds similar to HR training (or other plans like those done by @DopeyBadger) but based on lower-leg feedback instead of HR. Volumes feel low compared to what I would otherwise plan to do, but will see how it goes.

Curious if anyone on here has used one of their training plans before and your feedback.

I’ve been using a Stryd for about 18 months. I don’t use a Stryd plan. I get my workouts from my coach, and he provides the power target for each session and interval. I find it hard to feel a specific power without having to think about it, unlike a given pace where muscle memory comes naturally. That said, the easy sure is easy and the hard sure is hard. Since I use power for all my bike workouts too, that’s okay with me.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

100% so so so true!!!! This statement resonates very deeply!! This is where you will find me at Mile 2 of a 5k, Mile 4 of a 10k, Mile 10 of a half and Mile 22 of a full. ALL THE TIME. Thanks for sharing this.

You're welcome. One of the very last things I did before going to bed the night before my first marathon back in 2019 was to listen to a podcast interview with Jared Ward where he shared that. I've found it very helpful over the years to help cope with fatigue and work through it.

The simple reality is that when we're running a race of whatever distance that will test us, we are going to reach a point where we feel the fatigue set in and may be tempted to quit. So we remind ourselves why we wanted to do this and what we hope to achieve, and trick out bodies into following suit.

Due to an unexpected hospital stay last October, I was undertrained heading into the marathon last month. So I was not totally surprised when fatigue started to set in much earlier than normal during the marathon for me. When the fatigue did come around mile 12 or 13, I knew how to deal with it. I had to pull out all sorts of tricks as the fatigue mounted to help me keep going. And they worked.

 

[prncssjas]

Due to an unexpected hospital stay last October, I was undertrained heading into the marathon last month. So I was not totally surprised when fatigue started to set in much earlier than normal during the marathon for me. When the fatigue did come around mile 12 or 13, I knew how to deal with it. I had to pull out all sorts of tricks as the fatigue mounted to help me keep going. And they worked.

Amazing job getting through it--it's never easy. I hope you are in good health now! I will have to look up the podcast--sounds great. Thank you for sharing.

 

[PrincessV]

Sharing something odd and unexpected…

I drastically decreased my mileage over the last year. Not once did I think that would impact… my shoe size?!?! Yep, ALL of my shoes are about a 1/2 size too big now. Running and street shoes. Old shoes and new shoes. Everything I’ve bought over the last 10ish years of high mileage is roomy. One pair of ancient Chuck Taylor’s I haven’t worn in ages because they started feeling too tight? Now fit perfectly again.

It makes sense, I guess. For decades, my running shoes were a 1/2 size bigger than street shoes and they were just right. After a year or so of much higher mileage, I went up another 1/2 size in running shoes, and not long after started buying street shoes a 1/2 size larger, too. I just assumed it was mostly aging and feet continue to slowly grow over time. But maybe it was the extra mileage? Or do our feet start shrinking again at some age?!

 

[azrivest]

On an unrelated note, anyone else struggling with motivation post C2C/MW/DL? I have yet to string together a 5 run week. And when I am running its 4 miles and I'm done. I forced myself to run 5 yesterday which is the longest run I've done since DL half. I'm on this loop of telling myself I deserve this rest and then telling myself what I waste it is to lose the fitness I worked so hard for.

Yup

I'm hoping for cooler weather for Princess than last year, otherwise I'll really struggle through the half.

 

[Cabius]

It makes sense, I guess. For decades, my running shoes were a 1/2 size bigger than street shoes and they were just right. After a year or so of much higher mileage, I went up another 1/2 size in running shoes, and not long after started buying street shoes a 1/2 size larger, too. I just assumed it was mostly aging and feet continue to slowly grow over time. But maybe it was the extra mileage? Or do our feet start shrinking again at some age?!

Did all the running pound your feet flat? I've noticed the same thing. I have an old pair of Vans that I keep in the back yard as gardening shoes, and though I wore them for years, now my toes jam against them!

 

[Sleepless Knight]

Amazing job getting through it--it's never easy. I hope you are in good health now! I will have to look up the podcast--sounds great. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you. If memory serves, the podcast episode in question was from December of 2018. I know I listened to it on the eve of the 2019 Marathon as a prepare myself mentally for tomorrow kind of thing. I don't remember the name of the podcast since it was so long ago.

I think my health is basically back to normal. I don't think my running fitness is back to pre pneumonia level yet, but I had enough fitness to finish all 7 Walt Disney World Marathon Weekend and Disneyland Half Marathon Weekend races, so I'm extremely grateful for that! After being in the hospital, I revised all goals to not get swept and cross that finish line regardless of time.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Heart Rate Training Question:
I'm coming off the Disneyland Half Marathon with no other races planned, so as I transfer my focus to strength training I wanted to do some easy running. I decided to give Heart Rate Training a try. I'm doing about two 3 mile easy runs per week and one longer with some intervals.

Specifically during the 3 mile easy runs.....I like to have a pretty good cadence, or "quick turnover". I figure if I'm meant to be going slow I should at least have good form. But sometimes this gets me going a little too fast or if it's very cold and I maybe didn't get warmed up properly, my heart rate gets a bit too high and I need to take a walk break to get it back down into the prescribed zone.
If I try to just slow down my running or transition into a "jog" my speed slows down a bit, my cadence gets worse, the run isn't very fun, and even still I need some walk breaks.

So what do you think is best when it comes to heart rate training for an easy run.....going as slow as needed (despite form) in order to maintain a constant speed and HR in the Easy Zone - OR - keep great form, somewhat higher speed, but then needing to walk sometimes to reduce the HR?

Secondary question.....regardless of which method above I use I'm probably going to need a walk break at some point to return my HR to the correct zone, so do you find it better to walk just long enough to get a few points back into the correct zone, or walk long enough to get to the very bottom of the correct zone before I return to running or jogging?
*I'm using a Garmin Venu watch to see my heart rate zones during the run.

First thing to check is that your HR zones are reasonably accurate. Because bad HR zones would force you to run faster/slower than you should. My preferred method is Heart Rate Reserve as it takes into account one's max and resting HR. And for max HR, make sure it's something coming from your data, and not from the 220-age calculation. Best way to go about it is to sort all your activities in the Garmin desktop version by max HR based only on your current watch. Look at each individual run and see if the HR is a gradual increase to that value and isn't cadence lock. Use the "do I believe it". Look for the 3-5 highest values you believe with your current watch, and use that as your max HR unless you have strong data to say otherwise. You can always adjust this once you get additional data.

My second recommendation once you have proper HR zones set up is to try and run as slow as you comfortably can. See where that ends up. Course changes, temperature, stress, etc. will impact HR, so keep that in mind. If you find that the "ASAYCC" pace is still putting you above the proper HR zone, then add in structured walking breaks to the run to see if that can drop the overall average HR of the run closer to the desired average. In my experience, not all runners will be able to go slow enough at their ASAYCC pace, and have to have walking breaks to go slow enough. While I don't use HR training, it's not dissimilar in some respects from having a desired pace goal with the understanding that effort should remain static. Hence, when on an easy run and the goal is a 9 min/mile on a flat surface, the expectation is not that a 9 min/mile up the side of a mountain is still easy. Therefore, the effort dictates the necessity to slow down beyond the 9 min/mile to stay easy. Similarly, if the goal is <130 bpm, then you may find yourself needing to slow way way down on the uphills to maintain that goal HR, or similarly on a really hot day.

To answer the last question, I wouldn't hawk the HR too much mid-run. I would advise to find a structured run/walk that yields the desired HR zone for your easy pace. So that might be 45/30, it may be 15/30, or it may be 120/30. It'll come down to the relationship of your ASAYCC HR vs the goal HR and how far apart they are. I think you'll find the structured nature will be the likeliest best path forward. After the completion of the run, evaluate what the goal was vs what occurred. Too fast, then reduce the run length or increase the walk length, whichever is more tolerable to you. Based on Galloway's data, the ideal situation would be to try and manipulate the run length to be shorter first. But I've found some runners just have a minimal run duration threshold before it becomes a bother to them to do it. If it's too slow, then you have nothing to worry about, because it's hard to train too slow for most recreational runners based on how we're wired.

At the end of the day, we do this for fun. So balance the goal of the run (like slowing down) with the knowledge that as long as you're close enough and still having fun doing it, then you're in the right area. If slowing down to the proper area is causing you to start to dislike running or miss runs, then it's time to find a pivot on how to go about things a little differently. Find ways to balance the goal of getting better with the motivation to still get out there and do it. Consistency is king.

 

[PrincessV]

Did all the running pound your feet flat? I've noticed the same thing. I have an old pair of Vans that I keep in the back yard as gardening shoes, and though I wore them for years, now my toes jam against them!

Nope, same medium height arches as ever! With the odd exception of Birkenstocks, I’ve never been able to tolerate a rigid arch in shoes, and all of my non-running shoes (except the Birks) are flats. They're all too long now! There’s this one pair of NB 880s that ran short and I didn‘t size up, so they were strictly a running errands shoe with thin socks… but now they fit better than anything else and with my preferred thick socks. I’m currently trying to find a way to make the Keds I bought last year less roomy because I’m cheap and unwilling to buy another pair a 1/2 size smaller, lol! I don’t; know if there's any hope for my Saucony Rides - they were bordering on a smidge long to start and now I really feel it. I feel like the obvious answer is run more mileage, so it would be nice if my bum knees could get with that program.

 

[prncssjas]

At the end of the day, we do this for fun. So balance the goal of the run (like slowing down) with the knowledge that as long as you're close enough and still having fun doing it, then you're in the right area. If slowing down to the proper area is causing you to start to dislike running or miss runs, then it's time to find a pivot on how to go about things a little differently. Find ways to balance the goal of getting better with the motivation to still get out there and do it. Consistency is king.

You sound just like my running coach. Love it!

 

[LorrieAnn5]

Thank you PrincessV & DopeyBadger - I'm trying to learn how to do the run in the prescribed zone more by feel. The watch still vibrates if HR goes too high, but I'm trying.
I do think my HR zones are reasonable accurate. I'll will work on figuring out how slow I can comfortably run, and come up with RWR intervals that yield the desired average HR throughout the run.
I'll keep your advice in mind. Thanks!

 

[Dopey 2020]

Sharing something odd and unexpected…

I drastically decreased my mileage over the last year. Not once did I think that would impact… my shoe size?!?! Yep, ALL of my shoes are about a 1/2 size too big now. Running and street shoes. Old shoes and new shoes. Everything I’ve bought over the last 10ish years of high mileage is roomy. One pair of ancient Chuck Taylor’s I haven’t worn in ages because they started feeling too tight? Now fit perfectly again.

It makes sense, I guess. For decades, my running shoes were a 1/2 size bigger than street shoes and they were just right. After a year or so of much higher mileage, I went up another 1/2 size in running shoes, and not long after started buying street shoes a 1/2 size larger, too. I just assumed it was mostly aging and feet continue to slowly grow over time. But maybe it was the extra mileage? Or do our feet start shrinking again at some age?!

Interesting, I always bought 1/2 size up for running, a couple years ago had to go 1/2 up from that on one particular shoe, and lately all my new shoes are up an extra half. I was guessing manufacture changes but now I have to wonder. I’ve been running about seven years and continually increasing mileage. I’ve always been told try on shoes in the afternoon because your feet swell during the day. Maybe after so many years/miles they swell more? No idea, mine still measure the same but I need more room in my shoes when I run.

 

[marty3d]

Interesting, I always bought 1/2 size up for running, a couple years ago had to go 1/2 up from that on one particular shoe, and lately all my new shoes are up an extra half. I was guessing manufacture changes but now I have to wonder. I’ve been running about seven years and continually increasing mileage. I’ve always been told try on shoes in the afternoon because your feet swell during the day. Maybe after so many years/miles they swell more? No idea, mine still measure the same but I need more room in my shoes when I run.

I absolutely went up a half size when I started moving from half to full marathon training. In some shoes (especially boots) it's a full size.

 

[kps7795]

I’m going to attempt to give my first race report for the Publix A1A Fort Lauderdale Half Marathon later on, but I wanted to give a brief summary initially. I don’t know how they screwed this up so badly, but this was a 13.43 mile half marathon! Initially, I thought that it was my Apple Watch giving me a bad reading, but I was talking to other runners after the race who wore Garmins and they had the same mileage. According to my Apple Watch, I would have finished a 13.1 half marathon in 1:49:56, but my chip time was 1:52:23. There‘s nothing like absolutely unnecessary stress after running 13 miles. If they could get the distance right in the future, I would absolutely recommend this course. You run along the beach with the sun rising over the ocean after running past the cruise ships docked at Port Everglades.

Unfortunately, I didn’t see a PR bell. I was quite excited to ring one as the last half marathon that I raced (runDisney doesn’t count) was 2:08:52 in April 2022.

Place Overall: 490/3354
Place Male: 367/1729
Place Male Masters (I really hate that term!): 185/1000
Place M50-54: 40/207