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The Running Thread--2024

I remember reading there was an Olympic hopeful last year who was DQ’d because his coach handed him his water bottle.
This wouldn't shock me. I was listening to Ali on the Run and she was interviewing Des and she mentioned that she cannot take ANYTHING from ANYONE on the course. That's technically the rule for us plebeians, too, but clearly more likely to be enforced for someone who really has a shot at something big.
 
I think many of them use "bottles". They are prepared by each athlete with whatever works for them. The elites have designated tables to pick up their bottles from what I gather during races at the water stations. I think I remember des and karas podcast talking about at some time. Of course they could be doing something totally different..
I'll buy that. I'm guessing I'm not seeing these tables when I pass by hours later....

:-)
 
So I actually was pulled at last year's Boston from my fuel stop to work at the Elite's fuel stop around mile 22, so I can speak to the logistics. There are tables set up and their fuel is pre-packaged how they want it and set up at the stops they want (so they can choose not to take fuel at one of the stops). A lot of them will mark theirs with someone to make it obvious/easy to grab. I saw a lot of Maurten gels attached to a water bottle and a ribbon on the water bottle or tape to mark it or even pipe cleaners twisted together to form a handle. Volunteers cannot touch the fuel beyond putting it on the marked spot on the table, and then the elites grab it as they run by, volunteers cannot hand the fuel to them.
Lots of good and informative answers. I knew you guys would know.
Thank you.
 


This wouldn't shock me. I was listening to Ali on the Run and she was interviewing Des and she mentioned that she cannot take ANYTHING from ANYONE on the course. That's technically the rule for us plebeians, too, but clearly more likely to be enforced for someone who really has a shot at something big.

If you’re elite enough, you do get your own bottle passer. Apparently it’s only in Berlin for the majors, and for the top 15.

1706556153583.jpeg
 
So while I’m planning to do Halloween 1/2 for fun I had been looking for another fall race. And I think I found it because you can’t sell me on a race faster than the magic words of having our own traffic lane where I don’t have to deal with the terror of possibly crashing into another athlete who cuts into my path with zero warning because either they can't hear me coming or think they know our physics better than they actually do.

IMG_6198.jpeg
They are a brand new race so I’m curious to see how they will handle it. Still need to see about cost overall for travel but yeah probably going to finally do a full in GA

Race is this one for anyone curious: https://everywomansmarathon.com/?ga...tvIDj33Urmg2Zlgol2BoCCJwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

On a different note if anyone is curious what doing a full marathon normally looks like for a wheelchair for the faster people. Grandmas race route is from one of our POV's:

 


Let's see if it isn't too long

FINAL DECISION REGARDING THE DISQUALIFICATION OF ETHAN HERMANN'S
PERFORMANCE AT THE 2023 PHILADELPHIA MARATHON

I. INTRODUCTION

This document serves as a detailed list of events and subsequent rule violations
concerning the actions of elite athlete, Ethan Hermann, a member of the Philadelphia
Runner Track Club, during the 2023 Philadelphia Marathon held on November 19th,
2023, leading to his disqualification from the event.

II. BACKGROUND

Philadelphia Marathon Policies: The Philadelphia Marathon Races are USATF
sanctioned events. Additionally, two of the three races are World Athletics sanctioned
events with the third in process. As such, the Philadelphia Marathon works to adhere to
the rules and policies laid out by USATF and World Athletics that fit within the scope and
capabilities of the Philadelphia Marathon. The Philadelphia Marathon uses the policies
set forth by both USATF and World Athletics in tandem to create a fair and unbiased
race.

As a USATF and World Athletics Sanctioned Event, it is expected that every elite athlete
competing in a Philadelphia Marathon Race be familiar with the rules and policies set
out by USATF and World Athletics. The Philadelphia Marathon is not responsible for
making each athlete aware of every USATF and World Athletics policy and rule.
After reviewing USATF and World Athletics policies, Elite Athlete, Ethan Hermann, was
found to have violated USATF Rules 144.7, 145.2, 241.2(e), and 241.2(f) at the 2023
Philadelphia Marathon.

USATF Rule 144.7: No attendant or competitor who is not actually taking part in the
competition shall accompany any competitor on the mark or in the competition, nor
shall any competitor be allowed without the permission of the referee or judges to
receive assistance or refreshment from anyone during the progress of the competition,
except as provided by rules 144.3(b), 145.5, 232, or 241.

USATF Rule 145.2: Any competitor who shall refuse to obey the directions of the
Referee or other proper official, or who shall conduct himself/herself in an
unsportsmanlike manner, or who is offensive by action or language to the officials,
spectators, or competitors at any competition, or under Rule 162.17, shall render that
competitor liable to disqualification by the referee from participation in all further events
or rounds of events, including individual events of a Combined Event, simultaneous
events and relays, at the meet. If such disqualification occurs, any performance
accomplished up to that time in the same event session shall not be considered valid.
Performances accomplished in any previous event session, such as a qualifying round
or previous events of a combined event, shall stand. If the Referee thinks the offense
worthy of additional action, he/she shall promptly make a detailed statement of the
offense to the appropriate National or Association Officer.

USATF Rule 241.2(e): The organizing committee shall delineate, by barriers, tables, or
markings on the ground, the area from which refreshments can be received or collected.
It shall not be directly in the line of the measured route. Refreshments shall be placed so
that they are easily accessible to, or may be put by authorized persons into the hands
of, the athletes. Such persons shall remain inside the designated area and not enter the
course nor obstruct any athlete. No official shall, under any circumstances, move
beside an athlete while he is taking refreshment or water.

USATF Rule 241.2(f): A competitor who collects refreshment from a place other than a
refreshment station is liable to disqualification by the referee.

World Athletics Note Regarding Race Conduct (Rule 55): It is acknowledged that
following the practices of first giving a warning when applying relevant aspects of Rule
55 of the Technical Rules and where applicable Rules 6.2 and 6.3 of the Technical Rules
will create difficulties in implementation but where the opportunity arises, the Referee
should do so. It is suggested that one option might be that course or refreshment
station umpires be designated as assistant Referees and that they be in communication
with the Referee and each other to ensure the effective coordination of warnings and
disqualifications. But there remains the possibility as per the Note to Rule 6.2 of the
Technical Rules that in some circumstances, disqualification can, and should, occur
without a warning being given.

World Athletics Note Regarding Warnings & Disqualification (Rule 7): C. There will also
be some cases in which it is not practical or even logical for a yellow card to have been
issued. For example the Note to Rule 6.2 of the Technical Rules specially allows for an
immediate red card if justified in cases covered by Ruled 6.3.1 of the Technical Rules
such as pacing in races.

Elite Fluid Volunteers: Volunteers were instructed to “set up bottles on the table
according to the diagram” provided in writing by the Elite Coordinators. No Elite Fluid
Volunteers were authorized to hand personal fluids to elite athletes.
Elite Athlete Packet: In the Elite Athlete Packet given to every elite athlete, it is written
that there would be “personal fluids placed [on tables] along the course”. The Elite
Athlete Packet never makes allowance for bottles to be directly handed to the elite
athletes.

Elite Technical Meeting: In the Elite Technical Meeting, an Elite Coordinator instructed
the elite athletes on how the elite personal fluids would be arranged on each table,
stating that, as they ran by, every elite athlete would be “grabbing” their personal bottle
from their designated elite table. All elite athletes were asked if they had questions or
needed clarification regarding how Elite Fluid Stations would be set up and managed.
Mr. Hermann was in attendance at this meeting and had ample time to ask questions
regarding how he would acquire his personal fluids.
Note: Mr. Hermann was one of forty-one elite athletes receiving personal elite fluids at
the Philadelphia Marathon. Mr. Hermann was the only elite athlete who conspired to
have his bottles personally handed at the Elite Fluid Stations.

III. INCIDENTS AT ELITE FLUID STATIONS

A. Elite Fluid Station #1 (2.8 Mile Marker)

Mr. Hermann collaborated with Elite Fluid Station Volunteer Stephanie Fulmer, a
member of the same running club as Mr. Hermann (Philadelphia Runner Track Club), to
receive his elite fluids without gaining prior race approval. Ms. Fulmer admitted to
removing the bottle from the table and directly handing it to Mr. Hermann at the Elite
Fluid Station #1.

Ms. Fulmer, although a volunteer, was never authorized to hand personal fluids to elite
athletes.
These actions violates USATF Rule 144.7 as Mr. Hermann received assistance without
permission. USATF Rule 145.2 was also violated as Mr. Hermann gains an
unsportsmanlike advantage over his competitors who were not offered the same
assistance by having an unauthorized volunteer hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluids
and takes away the attention of the volunteers from the other elite athletes. USATF
Rule 241.2(e) was violated as Ms. Fulmer was not authorized to hand Mr. Hermann his
personal fluids.

B. Elite Fluid Station #2 (5.1 Mile Marker)

Mr. Hermann’s coach, Chris Namoli, approached Elite Fluid Station #2 carrying two
unknown bottles. Mr. Namoli approached Elite Fluid Station Volunteers Abby Marion and
Ellie Goldberg and asked if they were handing Mr. Herman’s his bottle. When told by Ms.
Marion & Ms. Goldberg that all bottles were to be left on the table, Mr. Namoli
proceeded to walk over to the elite fluid tables, examine, and move elite bottles not
belonging to Mr. Hermann, and add an unknown and unauthorized bottle to the elite
table. As reported by Ms. Marion, Mr. Namoli claimed that Mr. Hermann’s bottle was
unlabeled and moved Mr. Hermann’s bottle to the end of the fourth table. As Mr.
Hermann approached, Mr. Namoli took the bottle off the elite fluid table. Mr. Namoli
handed the bottle to Mr. Hermann as Mr. Hermann ran by the Elite Fluid Station. This
was all witnessed by Elite Fluid Volunteers Ms. Goldberg and Ms. Marion.
These actions violate USATF Rule 144.7 as Mr. Hermann received assistance without
permission and USATF Rule 241.2(e) as Mr. Namoli was not authorized to be on the
course nor was he authorized to hand Mr. Hermann his bottle.

C. Elite Fluid Station #3 (8.5 Mile Marker)

Mr. Hermann collaborated with Elite Fluid Station Volunteer Andy Potocek, a member of
the same running club as Ethan (Philadelphia Runner Track Club), to receive his elite
fluids without gaining prior race approval. Mr. Potocek admitted to removing Mr.
Hermanns bottle from the table and directly handing it directly to Mr. Hermann at Elite
Fluid Station #3.
These actions violate USATF Rule 144.7 as Mr. Hermann did not receive permission to
have his personal fluids handed to him at this Elite Fluid Station. USATF Rule 241.2 (e)
was also violated, as Mr. Potocek was not authorized by the race to hand Ethan his
personal fluids. These actions are also a violation of USATF Rule 145.2 as the action of
an unauthorized volunteer handing Mr. Hermann his personal fluids gives an
unsportsmanlike advantage over his competitors who were not offered the same
assistance and takes away the attention of the volunteers from the other elite athletes.

D. Elite Fluid Station #4 (11.8 Mile Marker)

Prior to the race, Mr. Hermann requested that Elite Fluid Station #4 Volunteer Joseph
Cutler, a member of the same running club as Mr. Hermann (Philadelphia Runner Track
Club), hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluids. However, Mr. Cutler stated that he did not
comply, leaving the bottle at its designated location on the table.
No rules appear to have been violated, but it should be noted that Mr. Hermann did
attempt to receive unauthorized support at Elite Fluid Station #4.

E. Elite Fluid Station #5 (15.8 Mile Marker)

At Elite Fluid Station #5, Mr. Hermann dropped his bottle and continued to run. Elite
Fluid Station Volunteer Dan Forry admitted to picking up Mr. Hermann’s Personal Bottle
from the ground and running approximately two hundred meters to catch Mr. Hermann
and hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluid bottle.
These actions violate USATF Rule 144.7 as Mr. Hermann received assistance without
permission. These actions also violate USATF Rules 241.2(e), as Mr. Forry was not
authorized to hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluids and Mr. Forry ran alongside Mr.
Hermann to hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluids. These actions also violate USATF
Rule 241.2(f) Mr. Hermann collected his personal fluids well outside of the designated
Elite Fluid Station area.

F. Elite Fluid Station #6 (18.9 Mile Marker)

Mr. Hermann collaborated with Elite Fluid Station #6 Volunteer Steve Hallman, a
member of the same running club as Mr. Hermann (Philadelphia Runner Track Club) to
receive his elite fluids without gaining prior race approval. Another Elite Fluid Station
Volunteer working at Elite Fluid Station #6, Claire Lapat, reportedly told Mr. Hallman that
Elite Fluid Volunteers were instructed to leave the personal fluids on the table. Mr.
Hallman responded by falsely claiming that he was given permission by Elite
Coordinator Colin Leak to hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluids. Mr. Hallman, as
witnessed by Ms. Lapat, removed Mr. Hermann’s personal fluids from the elite fluids
table and handed Mr. Hermann his personal fluids at the Elite Fluid Station.
These actions violates USATF Rule 144.7 as as Mr. Hermann did not receive permission
to have his personal fluids handed to him at this Elite Fluid Station. These actions
violate USATF Rule 241.2(e) as Mr. Hallman was not authorized by the race to hand
Ethan his bottle. These actions also violate USATF Rule 145.2 as the action of an
unauthorized volunteer handing Mr. Hermann his personal fluids gives an
unsportsmanlike advantage over his competitors who were not offered the same
assistance and takes away the attention of the volunteers from the other elite athletes.

G. Elite Fluid Station #7 (22.3 Mile Marker)

Similarly to the events that occurred at Elite Fluid Station #2, Mr. Namoli, Mr. Hermann’s
coach, approached Elite Fluid Station #7 without authorization from the race, removed
Mr. Hermann's bottle from the elite fluid tables, and handed it to Mr. Hermann as Mr.
Hermann ran by the Elite Fluid Station. This action was recorded on video, which was
brought to the attention of the Elite Coordinators.
These actions violate USATF Rule 144.7 as Mr. Hermann received assistance without
permission and USATF Rule 241.2(e) as Mr. Namoli was not authorized to be on the
course nor was he authorized to hand Mr. Hermann his personal fluids.

IV. POST-RACE ACTIONS

After learning that Elite Coordinators were aware of Mr. Hermann’s unauthorized actions
and violations, Mr. Namoli, the Philadelphia Runner Track Club, and by extension Mr.
Hermann, attempted to remove potentially incriminating posts on social media. A notice
was posted on the Philadelphia Runner Track Club Slack, a social media platform,
asking all members to not post anything on social media about Mr. Hermann. Mr.
Namoli states in the post, “There could be an appeal bc people handed him bottles and
that wasn’t offered to every runner. So we just need him to get accepted and race the
trials with no noise.”

These actions violate USATF Rule 145.2 as they are unsportsmanlike in nature, as they
confirm that the coach and athlete were aware of and attempted to cover-up the
violations.

V. CONCLUSION

This document attests to the observed incidents involving Mr. Hermann's performance
at the 2023 Philadelphia Marathon and outlines actions that contravene race
regulations, based on violations of the following USATF Rules:

144.7: Mr. Hermann received assistance from volunteers and/or Mr. Namoli without
gaining prior permission from the Elite Coordinators or the race. This action was
confirmed to have occurred at six out of the seven Elite Fluid Stations.

145.2: Mr. Hermann’s actions of colluding with Elite Fluid Volunteers that were
members of the Philadelphia Runner Track Club at Elite Fluid Stations #1, 3, 4, and 6 and
his coach to hand him his personal fluids at Elite Fluid Stations #2 and 7 is
unsportsmanlike in conduct. Not only does this give him an advantage of securing his
personal fluids at the Elite Fluid Stations, which was not provided to any of the elite
athletes in the field, but it also requires the volunteers at the station to prioritize Mr.
Hermann over the rest of the athletes. Additionally, this rule was violated after the race
when Mr. Namoli, The Philadelphia Runner Track Club, and by extension Mr. Hermann,
attempted to remove any evidence surrounding the direct handing-off of personal fluids
at the Elite Fluid Stations.

241.2(e): Mr. Hermann was directly handed his elite fluids by unauthorized persons
when he received his personal bottles from volunteers and/or Mr. Namoli during the
race. This action was confirmed at six out of the seven Elite Fluid Stations (#1, 2, 3, 5, 6,
7). Additionally, Mr. Forry ran alongside Mr. Hermann to hand off Mr. Hermann’s
personal fluids after Elite Fluid Station #5.

241.2(f): Mr. Hermann received his elite fluids from Mr. Forry two-hundred meters past
Elite Fluid Station #5, which is well outside the authorized Elite Fluid Station area.

Based on the collected body of evidence and numerous violations, the Philadelphia
Marathon deems it necessary to disqualify Mr. Hermann from the 2023 Philadelphia
Marathon and rescind his performance.
[/qupte}
 
So while I’m planning to do Halloween 1/2 for fun I had been looking for another fall race. And I think I found it because you can’t sell me on a race faster than the magic words of having our own traffic lane where I don’t have to deal with the terror of possibly crashing into another athlete who cuts into my path with zero warning because either they can't hear me coming or think they know our physics better than they actually do.

View attachment 829766
They are a brand new race so I’m curious to see how they will handle it. Still need to see about cost overall for travel but yeah probably going to finally do a full in GA

Race is this one for anyone curious: https://everywomansmarathon.com/?ga...tvIDj33Urmg2Zlgol2BoCCJwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
This one looks good. It definitely looks friendly to slower people at 7:45 max time and Savannah would be pretty to run through.

It looks like there would be 8 weeks between this one and MW. Is that enough recovery time? I’m trying to decide between going for Goofy again or step up to Dopey for 2025.
 
This one looks good. It definitely looks friendly to slower people at 7:45 max time and Savannah would be pretty to run through.

It looks like there would be 8 weeks between this one and MW. Is that enough recovery time? I’m trying to decide between going for Goofy again or step up to Dopey for 2025.

I was looking at this race as well. It is actually on a Dopey simulation weekend (4-10-23) for me so I'm thinking "what is a few more miles?" Running would require travel for me so that (and $$$) might be the determining factors.

The recovery time probably depends on how fast/hard you want to go in each. If one (or both) of the races is a "catered training run" or "PR in fun run," it is plenty of time.
 
This one looks good. It definitely looks friendly to slower people at 7:45 max time and Savannah would be pretty to run through.

It looks like there would be 8 weeks between this one and MW. Is that enough recovery time? I’m trying to decide between going for Goofy again or step up to Dopey for 2025.
It’s definitely closer than I’ve done before. But I’ve done NYC to Dopey before with the only issue being related to the shows at the time. And while it’s two weeks closer to Dopey than NYC it’s relatively close.

Savannah is pancake flat aside from the bridges according to a friend whose run in the area before. So at the very least it won’t be a hard 26.2 if your more worried about MW

Me personally MW is always the goof off race weekend. And since I will be turning around to do DL two weeks later I won’t be looking for time either races.

Basically Every Woman’s would be my last big race of 23 (with maybe an easy 10k for fun on Thanksgiving) and probably for at least a couple of months in 24.
 
Question: what’s a good plan of attack for returning to running after a short-ish break - let’s say 4 weeks off? I’m not training for anything longer than a 10K and was doing 9-11 miles as my longest runs prior to the break. I’d like to get back t 40-45 min mid-week runs, but feel like it would be smart to start at 30mins for a couple weeks - does that sound good? And do I just leave it at that, or do some other exercise for 10-15 mins in addition to get closer to an hour a day of exercise - maybe some cardio fitness like jumping jacks, mountain climbers, etc.?

I’m starting to get the itch to run again. My knees aren‘t really improved with the time off: some days one hurts, some days the other, some days both, and some days neither. I’ve tried to find a pattern but can’t connect it to anything other than maybe hormonal shifts, but I struggle to know when those are in effect, so it’s still pretty mysterious. I don’t think running or not running makes any difference. But my over all state of being could really use the boost from some running back in the mix!
 

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