The Running Thread—2023

[DisneyParrothead]

ATTQOTD: I tried the Saucony in the store and me feet said no. I have sensitive (or picky) biomechanics so I stayed with the Brooks and Saucony's I already use. The plated shoes just felt weird and I didn't like it. I'm also stubborn and want to know the times I get are my hard work and not due to some plates in the shoes.

 

[MissLiss279]

ATTQOTD:
I have used Nike VaporFly Next% 2’s for a few half marathons. They have been okay. They are not the most comfortable for me, but they aren’t painful. I just don’t think I would want to run a full marathon in them. Time-wise, I’m not sure they have really improved my time - I don’t think I set any PRs - I came within 30 seconds of one about 3 months after the PR.
I usually run in ASICS Noosa Tri’s, so I thought I would try the ASICS ‘super shoe’ - Metaspeed Sky+. They are very squishy/bouncy; however, I wore them for a 6 mile run, and one of my feet ended up in a lot of pain. I think I need a little more stability than they provided. I haven’t tried any others and have decided (at least for now) to continue to run in my usual shoes.

 

[Guidman]

Had my favorite race of the year yesterday: Pittsburgh 10-miler. The weather was great for it, 45 and sunny. The course is just the reverse of the first 10 miles of the marathon here. You have a good mix of hills, bridges, some rollers and the last three miles are pretty flat. Finished in 1:06:50. I really enjoy that race distance. Far enough to get into a pace and cruise for a bit but short enough to push it for a handful of miles too.

ATTQOTD: I've been using the Endorphin Pros 1 or 2 for races. I do think a carbon plate helps with getting through your turnover quicker. I wouldn't wear them for daily miles though.

With a lot of these super shoes, I think the secret sauce is in the foam composition. Running in these foams (PEBA, TPU, nitrogen-infused, etc.) vs. EVA, you'll notice more response and energy. A lot of the shoe companies are putting these foams in daily trainers now too, so you can a lot of benefits without having to deal with the stiffness of a carbon plate. I can't imagine if you put a carbon plate in a 40mm, EVA shoe that the ride would be enjoyable.

 

[dis_or_dat]

@fatmanatee I distinctly remember the mile 8 crowd, you guys were so amazing I made a mental note to remember what mile it was! thank you!!!

@huskies90 I only use "supershoes" for racing, but I agree with @Guidman I think it's actually the foam more than anything. Mine (next %) are about 1.5 years old and they didn't feel very bouncy for NY. I used to run in Nimbus for all my training too, but they keep changing the toebox and the last version was so painful I had to stop. I run generally in Glycerins now (super cushioned) and Pegasus (for speed/tempo).

 

[accm]

I agree that the posted HR zones seemed a bit high. @accm, have you gone in and made sure that the watch is using the %HRR method for setting your zones? Garmins seem to come with a weird default setting out of the box, if you haven't changed it.

If not, you'll need to switch the watch to %HRR (heart rate reserve) monitoring and know your resting and maximum heart rates. You then find your heart rate reserve, essentially your "working range":

HRR = Max HR - Resting HR

The zone ranges (or at least starting points of each zone) are then calculated as follows:

Zone 1 = Resting HR + (50% x HRR)
Zone 2 = Resting HR + (60% x HRR)
Zone 3 = Resting HR + (70% x HRR)
Zone 4 = Resting HR + (80% x HRR)
Zone 5 = Resting HR + (90% x HRR)

I have not done that. I'll change it now and see if it makes a difference on my next few runs.

Thanks everyone for the help!

 

[jmasgat]

Back from my final marathon (NYC)....the result was middling, with more walking than should have occurred, but hey, I am not injured, so that's a win. I guess I will be in the minority who don't have stars in their eyes for NY Marathon. It was......a marathon and marathons are tough. Yes, lots of crowds, but at times I found it unbearably loud and would have given anything to be on a barren stretch of roadway (you know, Disney!) Also, the walk after the finish was cruel.

I will stick to my plan and be done with the distance. It's just more than my body--and brain--want to handle. And I have nothing left to prove to myself. (And no, there is NO way I will sign up for another even though my time would let my in to both NYC and Chicago if I wanted) Kudos to the older runners who still can and want to compete.

 

[The Expert]

Belated ATTQOTD -- I've run two Dopeys in my New Balance Fuel Cell Elite v2s and can't say enough good things about them. (I had two pair with similar wear in different colors that I swapped between for each race.)

I am a slow runner and not making any PR attempts in those long distances, so for me it is about energy return and comfort for the long hours on my feet. These don't flare my morton's neuroma and my feet generally don't hurt even after the longest runs (including 6+ hour marathons). I do use them for long runs in training, because for me those are often 3 hours.

Both conditions impacted my training and had me worried about the MCM, and still have me worried about MW. But they were a non-factor in the MCM, so I can't say enough about PT or the Hokas.

I'm curious about your Hokas and what you ended up getting. The FCE v2s are getting hard to find and the v3 isn't as comfortable, so I'm possibly in the market again after the January races.

 

[DisneyParrothead]

Back from my final marathon (NYC)....the result was middling, with more walking than should have occurred, but hey, I am not injured, so that's a win. I guess I will be in the minority who don't have stars in their eyes for NY Marathon. It was......a marathon and marathons are tough. Yes, lots of crowds, but at times I found it unbearably loud and would have given anything to be on a barren stretch of roadway (you know, Disney!) Also, the walk after the finish was cruel.

I will stick to my plan and be done with the distance. It's just more than my body--and brain--want to handle. And I have nothing left to prove to myself. (And no, there is NO way I will sign up for another even though my time would let my in to both NYC and Chicago if I wanted) Kudos to the older runners who still can and want to compete.

Kudos to you too! I've never done a marathon and have no desire to. The shorter distances are fun and they don't require the training load of a marathon.

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Belated ATTQOTD -- I've run two Dopeys in my New Balance Fuel Cell Elite v2s and can't say enough good things about them. (I had two pair with similar wear in different colors that I swapped between for each race.)

I am a slow runner and not making any PR attempts in those long distances, so for me it is about energy return and comfort for the long hours on my feet. These don't flare my morton's neuroma and my feet generally don't hurt even after the longest runs (including 6+ hour marathons). I do use them for long runs in training, because for me those are often 3 hours.



I'm curious about your Hokas and what you ended up getting. The FCE v2s are getting hard to find and the v3 isn't as comfortable, so I'm possibly in the market again after the January races.

Hoka Cliftons. I bought two different pairs and have been alternating them for training runs.

I have some almost new Glycerins, and ought to go try them again now that my Mortons has diminished.

 

[StarGirl11]

Well looks like Grandmas is a go. But now I'm instead looking for a half because surprise they actually seed the wheelchair field. Even the non elites. So time to go find a half unless they'll take the 10k I'm doing in a couple of weeks. I'm registered for a couple of the Disney halves but I have no plans on doing them for time.

Honestly part of me expected I would eventually have to find a race specifically for time. But I was thinking this was a speed bump I would hit with the majors. Not Grandmas.

Though I might be considering a major for the fall anyway so it probably wouldn't have been that far off.

Kind of wish the bigger TX races that are good with racers weren't on or right next to my Disney race weekends (Houston and Austin). But not much I can do about that.

 

[dis_or_dat]

@jmasgat NY was definitely a tough marathon. Everyone I talked to afterwards said they cramped around mile 24 and they hadn’t cramped at any other marathon prior. Crowds were overwhelming at times, spilling over the sidewalk and into the streets causing huge bottlenecks with only enough room for 3-4 runners so I got stuck a lot. I’m impressed w anyone who PRs there. But they really helped me when I started lagging and enjoyed the energy.

The walk back was definitely rough. I read a lot about it prior so was not surprised but it didn’t make it any less painful. Took me over an hour to shuffle back to the train.

The teal portion is what you have to walk through after finishing.

 

[avondale]

I have questions about what folks do after long runs. When I say "long run", I mean a run that's long for you and you definitely feel tired in your legs and body. The actual distance/time may vary for each person.

1. Do you have trouble sleeping the night after a long run? If so, do you have any strategies that help you sleep?

2. Do you get muscle spasms or twitchiness in your legs after long runs? Again, if so, do you have any strategies that help with this?


To answer my own questions and explain why I'm asking:

1. Yes, I often have trouble sleeping the night after a long run. I always do the run before dinner (if not earlier), so I have lots of time to decompress. I never drink coffee, and I think I'm one of those people not affected by caffeine much, anyway. I haven't figured out what to do to help myself sleep. I'd prefer not to take meds, although I'd be interested if something seems effective. I just toss and turn.

2. This was occasionally an issue for me in the past after very long/hard runs, but it's become more recurrent lately for some reason. I generally stay very hydrated, which was my first thought - yesterday, for example, I drank about 120 ounces. And I got the twitchiness after my run. If I put on compression calf sleeves, that helps, but I will be living in them, if things continue this way. I would love to hear ideas.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I have questions about what folks do after long runs. When I say "long run", I mean a run that's long for you and you definitely feel tired in your legs and body. The actual distance/time may vary for each person.

1. Do you have trouble sleeping the night after a long run? If so, do you have any strategies that help you sleep?

2. Do you get muscle spasms or twitchiness in your legs after long runs? Again, if so, do you have any strategies that help with this?


To answer my own questions and explain why I'm asking:

1. Yes, I often have trouble sleeping the night after a long run. I always do the run before dinner (if not earlier), so I have lots of time to decompress. I never drink coffee, and I think I'm one of those people not affected by caffeine much, anyway. I haven't figured out what to do to help myself sleep. I'd prefer not to take meds, although I'd be interested if something seems effective. I just toss and turn.

2. This was occasionally an issue for me in the past after very long/hard runs, but it's become more recurrent lately for some reason. I generally stay very hydrated, which was my first thought - yesterday, for example, I drank about 120 ounces. And I got the twitchiness after my run. If I put on compression calf sleeves, that helps, but I will be living in them, if things continue this way. I would love to hear ideas.

I've not had any trouble sleeping after long runs, but I typically do mine in the morning or maybe early afternoon if it's winter and I want to be warmer. Curious if you still have issues falling asleep if you do your long run earlier in the day?

I don't know if it's the same, but I have had brief hamstring cramps while doing yoga/Pilates/stretching lately, and my guess for that is just fatigue from overall training load. For most people I'd probably suggest strength training, but we're both doing that already so I don't know what to think

ETA foam rolling does help a little with loosening up my muscles, so that might be worth a try if you haven't done it already.

 

[SheHulk]

@jmasgat NY was definitely a tough marathon. Everyone I talked to afterwards said they cramped around mile 24 and they hadn’t cramped at any other marathon prior. Crowds were overwhelming at times, spilling over the sidewalk and into the streets causing huge bottlenecks with only enough room for 3-4 runners so I got stuck a lot. I’m impressed w anyone who PRs there. But they really helped me when I started lagging and enjoyed the energy.

The walk back was definitely rough. I read a lot about it prior so was not surprised but it didn’t make it any less painful. Took me over an hour to shuffle back to the train.

The teal portion is what you have to walk through after finishing.

NYC sounds like fun in the abstract, and I love New York, but the start/finish logistics make it sooo unappealing to me. And it sounds like a hard course on top of everything! I still have it as a bucket list race, but I don't know when I'm going to be in the mindset to get excited for it.

Chicago on the other hand was great, and London sounds like a blast.

Maybe a QOTD: Are there any other large-field, big city marathons that folks recommend?

 

[kps7795]

NYC sounds like fun in the abstract, and I love New York, but the start/finish logistics make it sooo unappealing to me. And it sounds like a hard course on top of everything! I still have it as a bucket list race, but I don't know when I'm going to be in the mindset to get excited for it.

Chicago on the other hand was great, and London sounds like a blast.

Maybe a QOTD: Are there any other large-field, big city marathons that folks recommend?

Berlin also sounds amazing. I can't wait to run through Brandenburg Gate someday.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I have questions about what folks do after long runs. When I say "long run", I mean a run that's long for you and you definitely feel tired in your legs and body. The actual distance/time may vary for each person.

1. Do you have trouble sleeping the night after a long run? If so, do you have any strategies that help you sleep?

Only if I do them in the evening (so like....after 4pm.) Melatonin (1mg usually gets me there, but if it doesn't work, I take 2 more for a total of 3mg)

2. Do you get muscle spasms or twitchiness in your legs after long runs? Again, if so, do you have any strategies that help with this?

Is it like Restless Leg Syndrome twitchiness? If so, magnesium. That could be done with a lotion, or an epsom salt bath.

 

[GreatLakes]

Talk to me about perceived effort vs heart rate. Even on my easy runs, where I don’t feel like I’m pushing hard, my heart rate is in the 160s, which puts me in zone 4.
Should I be running off of perceived effort? Or should I pay more attention and try to keep my heart rate lower?

These are the methods you can set in Garmin Connect:



I remember reading somewhere, possibly TrainingPeaks, that %Max HR is the least accurate and to go with one of the other two. I know I read that %LTHR was better but not all that different from %HRR but I really can't remember where. Also possibly TrainingPeaks.

To the original question, I use perceived effort in conjunction with HR. My chest strap always seems more accurate based on actual HR vs perceived but it is a learning process. Over time you'll learn what effort and HR match up.

I have questions about what folks do after long runs. When I say "long run", I mean a run that's long for you and you definitely feel tired in your legs and body. The actual distance/time may vary for each person.

1. Do you have trouble sleeping the night after a long run? If so, do you have any strategies that help you sleep?

2. Do you get muscle spasms or twitchiness in your legs after long runs? Again, if so, do you have any strategies that help with this?


To answer my own questions and explain why I'm asking:

1. Yes, I often have trouble sleeping the night after a long run. I always do the run before dinner (if not earlier), so I have lots of time to decompress. I never drink coffee, and I think I'm one of those people not affected by caffeine much, anyway. I haven't figured out what to do to help myself sleep. I'd prefer not to take meds, although I'd be interested if something seems effective. I just toss and turn.

2. This was occasionally an issue for me in the past after very long/hard runs, but it's become more recurrent lately for some reason. I generally stay very hydrated, which was my first thought - yesterday, for example, I drank about 120 ounces. And I got the twitchiness after my run. If I put on compression calf sleeves, that helps, but I will be living in them, if things continue this way. I would love to hear ideas.

I don't experience either of those issue but I always foam roll and use my TheraGun after long runs so maybe that is helping me clear out anything stuck in the muscles.

 

[avondale]

Is it like Restless Leg Syndrome twitchiness? If so, magnesium. That could be done with a lotion, or an epsom salt bath.

Yes, similar. I do take calcium + magnesium daily, but I could look into something more specific.

 

[Scootin'By]

I don't know if it's the same, but I have had brief hamstring cramps while doing yoga/Pilates/stretching lately, and my guess for that is just fatigue from overall training load. For most people I'd probably suggest strength training, but we're both doing that already so I don't know what to think

I get the same spasms/cramps sometimes doing yoga the evening after a run or sometimes the day after. I think it's something about the specific pose and some fatigue. If I shift a little bit it will usually go away.

@Herding_Cats:
Melatonin (1mg usually gets me there, but if it doesn't work, I take 2 more for a total of 3mg)

1mg?! I can't take anything less than 10mg to feel the affects at all.

 

[Herding_Cats]

1mg?! I can't take anything less than 10mg to feel the affects at all.

oh my gosh I don't even wanna know what 10mg would do to me. I don't usually take anything unless I've been laying awake for 3+ hours already and am super exhausted but just can't get to sleep.