State of Fast Pass Return (or replacement)

[igrsod]

There were no afternoon breaks for us on our last trip, there wasnt time for it. The parks closed too early for us to justify going back to the hotel for a couple of hours. We were more exhausted (maybe we're getting old) at the end of this trip than any other.

That is true. When the parks were open later, you could afford the time to eat at a restaurant, go shopping, go back to the hotel. Now with short hours and long lines and no fast pass, you need to spend all your time in lines in the park to ride the rides. This is not the reason we go to Disney. It's the other things that make Disney magical and different from other parks. I hope Disney doesn't lose sight of this, or they will see their loyal customers going elsewhere with their vacation dollars.

 

[rockinrollercoasters]

Or they'll go back to their hotel for a pool time or a nap if they've hit some of the rides they really wanted to.

Disney does needs to address the long wait times the parks are experiencing now.

I understand that they do not have shows, meet and greets, and parades up and running, but that hasnt stopped them from increasing park capacity. Those should should have been addressed prior to increasing capacity.

Indiana Jones and Beauty and Beast opening would be a big pressure relief on DHS.

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't understand why Indiana Jones can't be reopened. Even with people at the doors it can't have more than ten people working there, right? It isn't a big stage spectacular with dozens of performers. Just opening that would give crowds someplace else to go.

 

[CSLucas]

I think this could be a large reason (possibly the 1 main reason) why we haven't seen some form of fastpass return yet. A 3hr standby has much less people in it when FP+ is present vs. a 3 hr line when no FP+ is present (or any length line for that matter). I have seen many videos of recent crowds in and around the parks and it looks decently crowded...like normal summer crowds. I think if they were to bring back FP+ before opening more shows/ characters/attractions, open more restaurants and expand dining current restaurant capacity, the walkways, common areas,and shopping would instantly feel like 100% capacity on NYE.

I agree with this. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't character meet and greets and shows also available as fast passes? Without these open, I wonder if there even are enough fast pass attractions to eat up the crowd - certainly it would be great for the people who are able to get the available ones, but it seems to me that would still leave a lot of people in the "without" category. And, while I'm sure there are some people who would ride their 3 rides and leave the park, those are more likely to be people who visit Disney a lot and not those first-trippers who probably have more incentive to get their money's worth.

 

[New Mouse]

Labor costs are very hi

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't understand why Indiana Jones can't be reopened. Even with people at the doors it can't have more than ten people working there, right? It isn't a big stage spectacular with dozens of performers. Just opening that would give crowds someplace else to go.

Labor costs are very high and id imagine something to do with the union agreement as well.

 

[mshanson3121]

The sitting and waiting is particularly awful. That’s what local parks are for.

Heck, our local parks don't have anywhere near the lines that Disney does currently.

Our last late summer trip was brutal heat wise and we ended up just going night time, adding in After Hours. We could knock out every ride we wanted during after hours and if we did a park during the day we focused on indoor activities- shows etc. It was so nice to not have lines and not have to slather ourselves in sunblock. Sadly late night hours, after hours and entertainment are all gone and who knows when and if they'll ever return. Not having extended hours in the summer is a killer.

Just as an aside but have to talk to guest services to fix an issue on MDE. Called last night with an 1.5 hr estimated wait, gave up after 2 hrs 45. Back on the phone this morning first thing on a 1 hr 10 minute estimated wait...that's an improvement, right? But this is indicative of the issues with WDW. Imagine this being your first trip to WDW and you need help and you have to wait hour after hour after hour just to talk to someone. That's insane.

I agree with you and @newmouse that not having extended summer hours is also not helping. Like you guys, we loved the evening hours, and I think having more hours definitely helped spread the crowd out some. We can only travel in summer, and cannot do open to close. So we're rope drop to lunch, afternoon break, return for the evening people. We have done the occasional day where we rope drop and stay through till 3-4, but they definitely were not as enjoyable (too crowded in the afternoon, too hot/tiring). We enjoyed our days with an afternoon break much more. But when we did those afternoon break days, the parks opened at 8 or 9, and didn't close until 9 for EP, AK, HS and 10 for MK (12 with EMH).

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't understand why Indiana Jones can't be reopened. Even with people at the doors it can't have more than ten people working there, right? It isn't a big stage spectacular with dozens of performers. Just opening that would give crowds someplace else to go.

It can be reopened. Literally everything Disney has closed can be reopened. They're just choosing not to due to $$$.

 

[cakebaker]

Labor costs are very hi


Labor costs are very high and id imagine something to do with the union agreement as well.

I doubt it's the union that is the issue. They were able to call back some actors for the mini-version of FOTLK. It really is most likely they just don't want to shuck out the bucks for it. It certainly isn't safety concerns.

 

[Grumpy Mouse]

So here is an interesting exercise for those of you claiming that Disney has been pricing out the middle class for the past few years.

I was curious, so I looked at median income and ticket pricing over the years.

In the 70s,
A Ticket $0.10 ($0.67 today)
B Ticket $0.25 ($1.68 today)
C Ticket $0.50 ($3.35 today)
D Ticket $0.75 ($5.00 today)
E Ticket $0.80-0.90 ($5.25 - 6.00)
7 ride ticket book $4.50/4.00/3.50 ($30/27/24) so approx $3-4 per ride in today’s money when there was only a single park and a small pool of rides (much like Shanghai Disney now)

Here is the median household income and the average cost for a family of 4 (2 adults, one teen, one child) to spend 1 day in a Disney theme park in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001, 2011 and 2021. The income information is from the US Census Bureau and the ticket prices are from AllEars historical ticket pricing page. All tickets are base (for 1971 and 1981 this is general admission + lowest price ticket book, for 1991 and beyond it is a 1 day ticket with no add ons like park hopping etc)

1971
Median income = $9000
1 day for family of 4 = $27
That is approx 0.3% of the median household income

1981
Median income = $22,000
1 day for family of 4 = $61
That is approx 0.27% of the median household income

1991
Median income = $30,000
1 day for family of 4 = $119
That is approx 0.4% of the median household income. First major jump, but WDW now has 3 parks at this point.

2001
Median income = $42,000
1 day for family of 4 = $182
That is approx 0.43% of the median household income. Even though there are now 4 parks, we don’t see a large jump

2011
Median income = $50,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $320
That is approx 0.64% of the median household income. Between 2001 and this point, Magic Your Way tickets were introduced.

2021
Median income = $79,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $458
That is approx 0.57% of the median household income. This is the first decrease we’ve seen in percentage of income since 1982.

So in the 70s and 80s a single day at Disney (a one or two park property) was about 0.3% of annual income for the average family.

In the 90s and early 00s, that increased to about 0.4%. The 10s were the most expensive time to visit as far as % of household income and the 20s see our first decrease.

Just some food for thought when we say that Disney is getting totally out of line. The property has grown over the course of 50 years. The ticket prices have increased and it certainly costs more proportionately to go now than it did in 1971, but WDW then and WDW now aren’t an apples to apples comparison.

Late to the game, but just wanted to post this is a worthless comparison. Comparing it to 'median income' tells you nothing about how affordable it is for the average family because it in no way is able to assess true disposable income. And sadly you can't run a comparison against the government's definition of disposable income because they define disposable income as anything left over after taxes.

If you want a proper comparison, you must run it against 'real disposable income' - which is a difficult number to get at these days - but if you pay attention to business and economic news, you know this number has seen very little growth over the past 50 years. The costs that most Americans MUST pay for (beyond their optional Disney vacation), have far, far, outstripped inflation or wage growth. Just to name the big three (but other costs factor in as well):

1) Housing
2) Healthcare
3) College

I'll leave the numbers as an exercise for the reader, but you'll quickly find that the median household 'real disposable income' in America has just been decimated over the past 50 years. In 1970, on average only one member per household was working; in 2020, two members are working - and most families still are no better off.

I'll be kind and leave it at that - but I will say if you believe this comparison implies that Disney is just as affordable today as it was in 1970 - I've got a bridge to sell ya (it's cheap, hardly used)!

 

[elmwyn]

Just as an aside but have to talk to guest services to fix an issue on MDE. Called last night with an 1.5 hr estimated wait, gave up after 2 hrs 45. Back on the phone this morning first thing on a 1 hr 10 minute estimated wait...that's an improvement, right? But this is indicative of the issues with WDW. Imagine this being your first trip to WDW and you need help and you have to wait hour after hour after hour just to talk to someone. That's insane.

They farmed that out years ago for cheap so I don't see it improving anytime soon. Money wins over guest experience again.

 

[onelove8187]

I'll leave the numbers as an exercise for the reader

Inducing flashbacks to engineering textbooks in college

 

[cakebaker]

They farmed that out years ago for cheap so I don't see it improving anytime soon. Money wins over guest experience again.

It hasn't been good for a long time, but this is a new low. And no, I don't expect it to improve anytime soon. Btw- still on hold, 1 hr 20 minutes. Could they at least give accurate estimated wait times? Asking too much, aren't I.

 

[ST1TCH]

I sure wish @Remy is here was still with us...

Thanks to the DLP announcement last week, the boards are now rampant with people who think WDW is going to do the same thing. IMHO there's no way that WDW would go that same route.

What we can glean from what Remy had shared with us up until this point:
- A new FP module has been developed and it interacts with a whole host of other modules.
- That new FP module has not worked correctly in the live system.
- Because of that problem, it's holding other new systems up (AP's, etc).
- The prior FP+ module does work in the live system, but they're are holding it back in anticipation of getting the new system in place.
- They failed to implement the new module and when determining what needs to be done, saw it could be 3+ months in order to accomplish what they need so there was heavy discussion on bringing back FP+ as it was in the interim.

Based on what he shared about how this new module interacts with so many other things and is holding other pieces back, I think we're looking at a heavily tiered system where depending on your AP status, hotel category, DVC, etc will determine how many FP you get or when you can book them, etc etc. Also could mean certain levels can pay for more of them (like the concierge level used to). I would assume we're looking at a hybrid of X number of free FP to start with and then some method of either purchasing more per stay or per day, or being able to book more based on your tier, etc.

 

[::danielle::]

I sure wish @Remy is here was still with us...

Thanks to the DLP announcement last week, the boards are now rampant with people who think WDW is going to do the same thing. IMHO there's no way that WDW would go that same route.

What we can glean from what Remy had shared with us up until this point:
- A new FP module has been developed and it interacts with a whole host of other modules.
- That new FP module has not worked correctly in the live system.
- Because of that problem, it's holding other new systems up (AP's, etc).
- The prior FP+ module does work in the live system, but they're are holding it back in anticipation of getting the new system in place.
- They failed to implement the new module and when determining what needs to be done, saw it could be 3+ months in order to accomplish what they need so there was heavy discussion on bringing back FP+ as it was in the interim.

Based on what he shared about how this new module interacts with so many other things and is holding other pieces back, I think we're looking at a heavily tiered system where depending on your AP status, hotel category, DVC, etc will determine how many FP you get or when you can book them, etc etc. Also could mean certain levels can pay for more of them (like the concierge level used to). I would assume we're looking at a hybrid of X number of free FP to start with and then some method of either purchasing more per stay or per day, or being able to book more based on your tier, etc.

I agree with you. This seems like the most likely outcome

 

[Launchpad_Mcquack]

I sure wish @Remy is here was still with us...

Thanks to the DLP announcement last week, the boards are now rampant with people who think WDW is going to do the same thing. IMHO there's no way that WDW would go that same route.

What we can glean from what Remy had shared with us up until this point:
- A new FP module has been developed and it interacts with a whole host of other modules.
- That new FP module has not worked correctly in the live system.
- Because of that problem, it's holding other new systems up (AP's, etc).
- The prior FP+ module does work in the live system, but they're are holding it back in anticipation of getting the new system in place.
- They failed to implement the new module and when determining what needs to be done, saw it could be 3+ months in order to accomplish what they need so there was heavy discussion on bringing back FP+ as it was in the interim.

Based on what he shared about how this new module interacts with so many other things and is holding other pieces back, I think we're looking at a heavily tiered system where depending on your AP status, hotel category, DVC, etc will determine how many FP you get or when you can book them, etc etc. Also could mean certain levels can pay for more of them (like the concierge level used to). I would assume we're looking at a hybrid of X number of free FP to start with and then some method of either purchasing more per stay or per day, or being able to book more based on your tier, etc.

So pretty much exactly how Vegas does it? On the Disney Dish podcast with Len Testa and Jim Hill this week(which I reference often because I don't believe there are two more connected individuals than these two guys), they mentioned competing with things like Marriot Bonvoy points and that Disney was leaning hard towards this reward track as well. I think the writing is on the wall at this point and if you are correct about the software issues they might as well wait till after New Years at this point. Bringing back FP's for 3 months and then shutting them down again for the new program might not even be worth it to them with the confusion.

As some have mentioned, there may be some psychology involved as well in cutting off FP's for so long that people will think it's a huge treat and bargain to get them back even if they have to pay for them.

There is a ton of nuance here that it is hard to criticize them without knowing the details. This could be a subtle tier track that makes sense, or they could make it that only DVC and Deluxe guests get all the perks and everyone else be damned(like extra magic hours). I am also keeping my eye sharply on how they handle AP's. It seems to me those changes are going to be more seismic than even FP.

 

[Br'er Rabbit is the Best]

Regarding the comments about Disney not bringing back stage shows like Indy and Nemo or Parades or Fantasmic or Meet and Greets which in turn drives up standby lines, I actually think Disney isn’t at fault for that. You can go through my post history if you want and can see that I’m not one to overdose on pixie dust and defend them but I think I have to here.

The Biden administration and CDC were still warning us about “impending doom” as late as March 30 of this year. That’s just 3 and a half months ago. With the Biden administration signaling there would be no changes in social distancing and mask mandates and arguing cases were about to skyrocket, what exactly was Disney supposed to do? You have the director of the CDC saying on national television, “I'm going to pause here, I'm going to lose the script and I'm going to reflect on the recurring feeling I have of impending doom…” and further discussed “consistent and worrying spike in cases." Disney is supposed to listen to all this and then go out and hire a ton of stage performers to be ready for the summer?

They listened to the Biden administration which I don’t think you can blame them for and therefore were still militant with masking and social distancing until just a month ago. They didn’t drop indoor masks until June 15. It’s only July 15 now so it’s only been 30 days. That’s nowhere near enough time for them to put out casting notices, find performers who look like the characters they need, hire them and all the supporting cast and crew and then train them and have them rehearse.

Unfortunately, it’s going to take them a long time to get these things back up and running again. They can’t just pluck random people off the street at $15 an hour. I don’t look like Gaston or Indiana Jones so even if I’m interested, I’m not qualified.

This is no excuse for them going full speed ahead with packing the parks and raising capacity with such limited attractions and entertainment, but I don’t think them not having entertainment right now is due to pinching pennies. That said they should absolutely bring back FP+ for free right now to try and relieve guests.

 

[Brocktoon]

I doubt it's the union that is the issue. They were able to call back some actors for the mini-version of FOTLK. It really is most likely they just don't want to shuck out the bucks for it. It certainly isn't safety concerns.

I tend to agree ... remember that even PRE-COVID Disney was cutting various actors and musicians from the parks in the name of $$$. Some acts were replaced with probable lower cost subs, while others never came back.

 

[cakebaker]

Regarding the comments about Disney not bringing back stage shows like Indy and Nemo or Parades or Fantasmic or Meet and Greets which in turn drives up standby lines, I actually think Disney isn’t at fault for that. You can go through my post history if you want and can see that I’m not one to overdose on pixie dust and defend them but I think I have to here.

The Biden administration and CDC were still warning us about “impending doom” as late as March 30 of this year. That’s just 3 and a half months ago. With the Biden administration signaling there would be no changes in social distancing and mask mandates and arguing cases were about to skyrocket, what exactly was Disney supposed to do? You have the director of the CDC saying on national television, “I'm going to pause here, I'm going to lose the script and I'm going to reflect on the recurring feeling I have of impending doom…” and further discussed “consistent and worrying spike in cases." Disney is supposed to listen to all this and then go out and hire a ton of stage performers to be ready for the summer?

They listened to the Biden administration which I don’t think you can blame them for and therefore were still militant with masking and social distancing until just a month ago. They didn’t drop indoor masks until June 15. It’s only July 15 now so it’s only been 30 days. That’s nowhere near enough time for them to put out casting notices, find performers who look like the characters they need, hire them and all the supporting cast and crew and then train them and have them rehearse.

Unfortunately, it’s going to take them a long time to get these things back up and running again. They can’t just pluck random people off the street at $15 an hour. I don’t look like Gaston or Indiana Jones so even if I’m interested, I’m not qualified.

This is no excuse for them going full speed ahead with packing the parks and raising capacity with such limited attractions and entertainment, but I don’t think them not having entertainment right now is due to pinching pennies. That said they should absolutely bring back FP+ for free right now to try and relieve guests.

Then how did they manage to bring most of the cast back for FOTLK- the mini version.

Once cast had been fully vaccinated, there was no reason not to start call backs and preparing to open again. Just none. They haven't even started with call backs or casting notices. It's been 30 days since they couldn've opened fully. They didn't have to wait until they were ABLE to open to prepare to open. And as of today, they still aren't preparing from all accounts.

 

[ST1TCH]

Regarding the comments about Disney not bringing back stage shows like Indy and Nemo or Parades or Fantasmic or Meet and Greets which in turn drives up standby lines, I actually think Disney isn’t at fault for that. You can go through my post history if you want and can see that I’m not one to overdose on pixie dust and defend them but I think I have to here.

The Biden administration and CDC were still warning us about “impending doom” as late as March 30 of this year. That’s just 3 and a half months ago. With the Biden administration signaling there would be no changes in social distancing and mask mandates and arguing cases were about to skyrocket, what exactly was Disney supposed to do? You have the director of the CDC saying on national television, “I'm going to pause here, I'm going to lose the script and I'm going to reflect on the recurring feeling I have of impending doom…” and further discussed “consistent and worrying spike in cases." Disney is supposed to listen to all this and then go out and hire a ton of stage performers to be ready for the summer?

They listened to the Biden administration which I don’t think you can blame them for and therefore were still militant with masking and social distancing until just a month ago. They didn’t drop indoor masks until June 15. It’s only July 15 now so it’s only been 30 days. That’s nowhere near enough time for them to put out casting notices, find performers who look like the characters they need, hire them and all the supporting cast and crew and then train them and have them rehearse.

Unfortunately, it’s going to take them a long time to get these things back up and running again. They can’t just pluck random people off the street at $15 an hour. I don’t look like Gaston or Indiana Jones so even if I’m interested, I’m not qualified.

This is no excuse for them going full speed ahead with packing the parks and raising capacity with such limited attractions and entertainment, but I don’t think them not having entertainment right now is due to pinching pennies. That said they should absolutely bring back FP+ for free right now to try and relieve guests.

Agreed....and the CDC and media, etc are still wavering on what the new delta variant means, vaccinated people supposedly getting it, Orange County going back to recommending masks indoors, etc. Not trying to make this political or covid or masks.....but these are relevant points on why Disney isn't going full steam ahead on hiring everyone back and opening all shows, etc because it is still a fluid situation and there is more uncertainty ahead.

But it's not excusable that they are full steam ahead on adding more and more capacity. They could have easily controlled this summer better by keeping capacity at 40%ish and not have the crowd issues. Would people be upset they couldn't go to Disney? Sure....but those who were able to go would be happier with the crowds and lines.

 

[monstermash23]

I think there are a lot of valid points being made regarding the fluidity and abrupt changes of world situation reflecting on the hiring situation. I don’t think that plays a part in what they will be doing now and going forward anymore though (esp with recent capacity increases), despite the new “recommendation” from the OC mayor. But I do think the abrupt change of it all and breakneck pacing to be normal affected things between March and now in a much bigger way than this board often credits.

But no matter what, Disney NEVER should have increased capacity the way they did. The pace of capacity increase should have never outpaced the hiring/staffing issues and availability of attractions/shows. That is the bottom line for me.

 

[cakebaker]

but these are relevant points on why Disney isn't going full steam ahead on hiring everyone back and opening all shows, etc because it is still a fluid situation and there is more uncertainty ahead.

If safety issues were their concern, they wouldn't be cramming the parks full, telling guests to fill all available spaces. They can't play the Covid card just where it suits them.

 

[Br'er Rabbit is the Best]

Then how did they manage to bring most of the cast back for FOTLK- the mini version.

Once cast had been fully vaccinated, there was no reason not to start call backs and preparing to open again. Just none. They haven't even started with call backs or casting notices. It's been 30 days since they couldn've opened fully. They didn't have to wait until they were ABLE to open to prepare to open. And as of today, they still aren't preparing from all accounts.

I haven’t been able to see the new show since they brought it back, but if I’m not mistaken isn’t it modified for social distancing? You can’t really do that for Indy or Beauty and the Beast. Do we know for sure they aren’t doing casting notices for those yet?