Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker discussion thread (*** now contains spoilers ***)

[rteetz]

At this rate Indy is going to be using his whip to propel his wheelchair!

I don't understand why they don't at least put Dave Filoni in charge of the story direction - He's surely proven himself with Clone Wars and the Rebels (less so with Resistance but I suspect that's more due to management demands on what the series should be rather than Filoni himself)

And Filoni has a role in the Mandalorian

 

[Brianstl]

I’m not so sure. I do think though that Feige will have a role with Star Wars but he’s not running the place.

I also think maybe Star Wars is announcing things too early meaning wait until things are in actual development before doing so. They did this with the Obi Wan series. It was rumored forever but they waited until they had actual things set. I think that’s the route they need to take more often.

I am not a complete hater of the new movies. I really liked TFA and Rogue One. Solo wasn't awful. TLJ was bad, IMO. Disney has two big problems when it comes to Star Wars. First, ballooning budgets from production issues that have increased with every film. Particularly, increased production cost from reshoots when the story doesn't look good in editing or doesn't test well. That eats in to Disney's bottom line on a property that Disney admitted at the time they over paid for. Second, the new films have created a warring fan base that that isn't good for business.

 

[rteetz]

I am not a complete hater of the new movies. I really liked TFA and Rogue One. Solo wasn't awful. TLJ was bad, IMO. Disney has two big problems when it comes to Star Wars. First, ballooning budgets from production issues that have increased with every film. Particularly, increased production cost from reshoots when the story doesn't look good in editing or doesn't test well. That eats in to Disney's bottom line on a property that Disney admitted at the time they over paid for. Second, the new films have created a warring fan base that that isn't good for business.

Practically every film does reshoots these days. Marvel has reshoots, Disney studios films, other major companies too. I think people look too much into that.

That warring fan base is still selling out (in minutes) giant expo centers for fan events.

 

[BrianL]

Practically every film does reshoots these days. Marvel has reshoots, Disney studios films, other major companies too. I think people look too much into that.

That warring fan base is still selling out (in minutes) giant expo centers for fan events.

Yeah, outside of Solo, which had some production troubles, the reshoots were all pretty standard stuff. Solo still turned out to be a pretty good movie too! I still cannot for the life of me understand what was so bad about The Last Jedi. I mean, it isn't my favorite Star Wars movie, but nothing in it was "offensive" from a fan perspective. And believe me, I do understand when a franchise "betrays" a fan - it's happened to me a lot with comic books!

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I am not a complete hater of the new movies. I really liked TFA and Rogue One. Solo wasn't awful. TLJ was bad, IMO. Disney has two big problems when it comes to Star Wars. First, ballooning budgets from production issues that have increased with every film. Particularly, increased production cost from reshoots when the story doesn't look good in editing or doesn't test well. That eats in to Disney's bottom line on a property that Disney admitted at the time they over paid for. Second, the new films have created a warring fan base that that isn't good for business.

I agree about the ballooning budget - though do think some of it is a bit distorted due to all the reshoots that happened with Solo after they changed directors

But doing things on budget/with a reasonable budget is something I think Disney struggles with. They are like unable to make a move for less than $125m

 

[rteetz]

I agree about the ballooning budget - though do think some of it is a bit distorted due to all the reshoots that happened with Solo after they changed directors

But doing things on budget/with a reasonable budget is something I think Disney struggles with. They are like unable to make a move for less than $125m

It’s not just movies either it’s also the parks.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I still cannot for the life of me understand what was so bad about The Last Jedi. I mean, it isn't my favorite Star Wars movie, but nothing in it was "offensive" from a fan perspective.

i've chatted with a number of fans who did feel "betrayed" by Last Jedi - for the most part (to them at least) it is how Luke was handled and that he was a symbol of optimism for their generation and that he acted out of character and it ruined his development arc

I don't necesssarily agree with it (though I do think a few small changes could have improved things) but I can understand where, from their point of view, it was a pretty big deal

 

[BrianL]

i've chatted with a number of fans who did feel "betrayed" by Last Jedi - for the most part (to them at least) it is how Luke was handled and that he was a symbol of optimism for their generation and that he acted out of character and it ruined his development arc

I don't necesssarily agree with it (though I do think a few small changes could have improved things) but I can understand where, from their point of view, it was a pretty big deal

I guess so, but is that really all it is? I never quite saw it as out of character for Luke - I don't know that I ever saw him as an eternal optimist. He was never "all in" on the Jedi teachings anyway, and he kind of chose his own path. I still think Luke came off pretty cool at the end of TLJ - brushing off his shoulder and all. Yeah, it was a projection, but it took immense power and it saved the day!

I do agree that they could've elaborated a bit more on the circumstances that brought him there. TLJ is a little bit of a clunky movie in that regard, but I don't get how it ruins the franchise forever, nor how just because TLJ was bad it somehow makes Solo and Rebels and The Force Awakens bad too.

 

[Skywise]

i've chatted with a number of fans who did feel "betrayed" by Last Jedi - for the most part (to them at least) it is how Luke was handled and that he was a symbol of optimism for their generation and that he acted out of character and it ruined his development arc

I don't necesssarily agree with it (though I do think a few small changes could have improved things) but I can understand where, from their point of view, it was a pretty big deal

Luke did act out of character - for someone who risked his life to pull the light out of darkness then turn around and attempt to murder one of his students because he saw some darkness didn't make sense - especially with treating the whole thing in a 2 minute flash back.
But it wasn't just Luke - it was the trashing of the entire concept of the Jedi Knights and the light side of the force while giving the Sith a complete pass and all of the established lore and history as Rian flipped the fandom the bird. It might've even been given a pass if the story had been decent - but it wasn't even that. They still haven't established what the First Order IS in the galaxy except for the fact that it seems to have taken over the thousands of worlds in the Empire and all the rich people are perfectly happy with it while the resistance (helmed by the people that destroyed the Empire) grow weaker and weaker. But for all the vaunted power the First Order doesn't seem to understand basic military tactics like ordering a few ships IN FRONT of the fleeing resistance ship to cut it off at the pass.
MEANWHILE there doesn't seem to be any problem of having a shuttle take off and get away AND THEN COME BACK into the middle of a warzone with not one attack on it (golly, maybe they should've come back with multiple shuttles and flown the rest of the crew off!)
I'm not a perfectionist in storytelling by any means (C'mon... Ewoks... really?... but you have to get me to suspend belief and at least be entertaining)
To top it off - Disney seems hellbent on misunderstanding what Star Wars is with this inspid "end of the skywalker saga" nonsense. Star Wars was first and foremost a homage to SERIALS. Short (30 minutes or so) episodes to run before a main picture at the theaters, do some entertaining things and then hook you at the end to come back next week. You don't NEED to relate everything to Luke and Darth Vader but you can't retcon the storyline because its central to the mythology. Even Lucas understood that, which is why he wanted 7-9 to be about the journey of the Whills. But if you destroy that storyline there's no anchor to the Star Wars universe and you just have "Space Disney... with magic lightsabers!". The ultimate irony here is that they didn't HAVE to use the old characters - Episode 7 could've easily started 200 years after the fall of the Empire and gone from there but Disney wanted the easy cash but doesn't want to be beholden to the old mythos. Why? Because they don't want to pay licensing fees to Lucas?! Geez, PAY Lucas the licensing fee and use the original characters then use your "star wars stories" to test market new characters until you get one that works then phase them in and phase out the old characters. Don't kill the golden goose trying to get all the golden eggs at once!
The more you tighten your grip, the more dollars will slip through your fingers!

 

[kbelle8995]

On The Rise of Skywalker, I'm waiting until the film comes out before I make any judgement calls. I am less excited. I had Issues with TLJ but I didn't hate it. It was okay. The Rise of Skywalker had some moments that I really loved. Others not so much. I realize that I am probably the only one who is wary of any Kylo redemption. Kinda want him pay for what he has done. (I know I'm in the minority)

On the Other hand, The Mandalorian is out in two weeks. AND I AM SO EXCITED. So I am breaking my rule about not judging until I see it.

 

[BrianL]

Luke did act out of character - for someone who risked his life to pull the light out of darkness then turn around and attempt to murder one of his students because he saw some darkness didn't make sense - especially with treating the whole thing in a 2 minute flash back.
But it wasn't just Luke - it was the trashing of the entire concept of the Jedi Knights and the light side of the force while giving the Sith a complete pass and all of the established lore and history as Rian flipped the fandom the bird. It might've even been given a pass if the story had been decent - but it wasn't even that. They still haven't established what the First Order IS in the galaxy except for the fact that it seems to have taken over the thousands of worlds in the Empire and all the rich people are perfectly happy with it while the resistance (helmed by the people that destroyed the Empire) grow weaker and weaker. But for all the vaunted power the First Order doesn't seem to understand basic military tactics like ordering a few ships IN FRONT of the fleeing resistance ship to cut it off at the pass.
MEANWHILE there doesn't seem to be any problem of having a shuttle take off and get away AND THEN COME BACK into the middle of a warzone with not one attack on it (golly, maybe they should've come back with multiple shuttles and flown the rest of the crew off!)
I'm not a perfectionist in storytelling by any means (C'mon... Ewoks... really?... but you have to get me to suspend belief and at least be entertaining)
To top it off - Disney seems hellbent on misunderstanding what Star Wars is with this inspid "end of the skywalker saga" nonsense. Star Wars was first and foremost a homage to SERIALS. Short (30 minutes or so) episodes to run before a main picture at the theaters, do some entertaining things and then hook you at the end to come back next week. You don't NEED to relate everything to Luke and Darth Vader but you can't retcon the storyline because its central to the mythology. Even Lucas understood that, which is why he wanted 7-9 to be about the journey of the Whills. But if you destroy that storyline there's no anchor to the Star Wars universe and you just have "Space Disney... with magic lightsabers!". The ultimate irony here is that they didn't HAVE to use the old characters - Episode 7 could've easily started 200 years after the fall of the Empire and gone from there but Disney wanted the easy cash but doesn't want to be beholden to the old mythos. Why? Because they don't want to pay licensing fees to Lucas?! Geez, PAY Lucas the licensing fee and use the original characters then use your "star wars stories" to test market new characters until you get one that works then phase them in and phase out the old characters. Don't kill the golden goose trying to get all the golden eggs at once!
The more you tighten your grip, the more dollars will slip through your fingers!

He did not try to murder one of his apprentices - he had a moment where he considered it - but he didn't go through with it. He wasn't going to. Temptation by the dark side is something all Jedi have to deal with. I think it strengthens his character that he decided not to do it. I'm not really sure how the movie "gives the Sith a pass" on anything. Other than that, the rest of the issues seem pretty typical of fluffy sci-fi space operas - if we're going to start dinging them on the physics now, then I don't know what to tell you.

I do not believe they need to pay Lucas any kind of licensing fees as they own the franchise outright. There may be a matter of residuals, but that is routine and unlikely to amount to large amounts.

 

[Skywise]

My source for THE RUMOR of still paying licensing fees is here - https://boundingintocomics.com/2019...ause-george-lucas-still-financially-attached/
It would make a lot of sense for why Disney continues to go out of its way to dodge using old characters (EG getting rid of Darth Vader in jedi training) when they could easily be profiting off of them if they did own the entire franchise outright.

 

[fatmanatee]

My source for THE RUMOR of still paying licensing fees is here - https://boundingintocomics.com/2019...ause-george-lucas-still-financially-attached/
It would make a lot of sense for why Disney continues to go out of its way to dodge using old characters (EG getting rid of Darth Vader in jedi training) when they could easily be profiting off of them if they did own the entire franchise outright.

They're not really dodging old characters though. Darth Vader was in Rogue One, along with two other big characters that they had to digitally insert into the movie. They made an entire movie about one guy from the original trilogy. They're making a Disney+ series about another guy from the original trilogy. And a bunch of old characters are showing up in the current trilogy (it uhhhh... sometimes doesn't work out well for them but they *are* there). If this was really an issue they'd just ignore the original entirely but that hasn't been the case.

Anyway, the linked rumor comes from a Youtuber with 60k subscribers, and maybe he's right but I would tread carefully around this.

 

[Skywise]

Then why doesn't Star Wars land have any reference to the original series? (aside from the Millenium Falcon, Chewbacca and light sabers)

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Then why doesn't Star Wars land have any reference to the original series? (aside from the Millenium Falcon, Chewbacca and light sabers)

... and Yoda, and Luke's landspeeder, and R2-D2, and holocrons and specific lightsabers from those of the original series and the cartoon series

 

[DVCcurious]

I still cannot for the life of me understand what was so bad about The Last Jedi.

I don’t want to go on and on because I’m really trying not to be the resident troll who bashes Star Wars. I LOVED TFA. I watched it 24 times in the theater. The scene where Rey leaves the broken down Star Destroyer, slides down the hill, and drives into town is one of my top 3 favorite Star Wars scenes. I put it up there with Luke watching the twin suns and Shmi telling Anakin “don’t look back” as my top 3 Star Wars scenes.

I recommend 2 Fandom Menace YouTube videos: Mauler’s unbridled rage (discusses the many, many problems in the film) and How it Should Have Ended (shows how most of the problems could have easily been fixed without changing the story too much). You watch both of those and you’ll understand.

 

[BrianL]

My source for THE RUMOR of still paying licensing fees is here - https://boundingintocomics.com/2019...ause-george-lucas-still-financially-attached/
It would make a lot of sense for why Disney continues to go out of its way to dodge using old characters (EG getting rid of Darth Vader in jedi training) when they could easily be profiting off of them if they did own the entire franchise outright.

Lucas is definitely still financially attached - remember he got a ton of stock as part of the sale (the number is hard to nail down but it was worth about $2 Billion!). He is a major shareholder of The Walt Disney Company. Their success is money in his plaid, flannel pocket.

 

[Kaleidodad]

"My source claims"... "if this rumor is true"... "I think"

Pretty thin sourcing for this hilariously-false rumor, that's for sure. I seriously doubt any "insider" privy to this kind of bombshell hidden in the Disney/Lucasfilm acquisition would have kept mum for so long, only to trickle out the info to some small-potatoes youtuber.

 

[rteetz]

https://variety.com/2019/film/features/star-wars-kathleen-kennedy-david-benioff-db-weiss-1203388611/

 

[BrianL]

https://variety.com/2019/film/features/star-wars-kathleen-kennedy-david-benioff-db-weiss-1203388611/

Interesting read, but I think the article draws some wild conclusions. Not all of these situations were the same. Trank was fired very early after developing problems on set with Fox and delivering a poorly received movie. Colin Treverrow also left before production had begun. These things happen all the time. Lord & Miller had toruble delivering on time and had some radical ideas, but you've gotta know you're not going to have 100% freedom on a movie like this. It's happened at Marvel too - Edgar Wright didn't want an Avengers tie-in on Ant-Man. Marvel was like "of course there will be an Avengers tie-in - EVERYTHING is an Avengers tie-in!" Gareth Edwards hung around too and the talk of his basically being replaced is overblown. He put his ego aside and accepted help and delivered a great product. I really think all this talk of unrest at LFL is overblown.