Splash Mountain to become Princess and the Frog ride

[JacknSally]

I rarely watch tv and didn’t watch The Simpsons until I went on the ride at Universal a couple years ago. Truthfully, couldn’t get through an episode and didn’t quite get the draw to the show but it’s evidently popular given the time it’s been running.

I had no idea Disney owned it. I’m going to check this out now because I’m curious.

Their ownership is new - it was part of the Fox acquisition.

 

[Rory607]

It’s one thing to say you explained something. It’s another to say it. I know plenty of parents that ask their kids if they understand something, and the kids just nod their heads. But when you ask you ask the kid to explain it back, they end up not really getting it. So what did you say? No kid wants their rides changed.

Are you serious? If the parent is sitting there crying because Splash Mountain is being changed, the kid will probably be upset. If the parent explains that it is based on a movie that is from a long time ago and explains racism at an age-appropriate level, the kid will be fine. Hopefully, the parents have already been having conversations with their kids about racism and this is not brand new information to them. It's not to my kids. Not saying I'm a perfect parent, but we have these conversations in my house and my kids are in 4th grade and kindy. My kids are entitled to their feelings and emotions, but I'm not going to model crying over a theme park ride. Be upset, but learn why it's wrong and look forward to the future.

 

[Mit88]

"Just for Fun" is a misnomer

I laughed at that when I saw it. Lol. Some sick people having “fun” in there

 

[Alicefan]

I think Disney is well aware how popular this ride is and that they have to do a good job with it. Let's give Disney the benefit of the doubt that they can make this work
I think in the coming years Disney will probably try to boost the popularity of the non-caucasian princesses. This is one way.

I can't imagine it's going to be an overlay like with Nightmare before Christmas in the Haunted Mansion in DL. Most likely the track will remain the same. And I think the emotional flow of the ride will remain the same: where there is a happy scene now, there will be a happy scene after the refurb, scary scene = scary scene. They will probably keep the riverboat as that matches PotF.

Yeah people! It's Disney for crying out loud! They couldn't possibly mess this up! (cough cough...Imagination...cough) lol

 

[chasgoose]

Uh, nobody is promoting Joel Chandler Harris and Uncle Remus. You are moving the goal posts.

I'm not saying anyone is "promoting Joel Chandler Harris or Uncle Remus" but that is the source material for Song of the South and Splash Mountain, not the original versions of the folktales that existed in Africa pre-slavery and continued to be retold and passed down there by people who weren't forced into human bondage. Those versions that existed and continue to exist today are obviously going to be very different as they weren't told and retold by generations of people who were enslaved for centuries by the time Joel Chandler Harris began his Uncle Remus project.

It's moving the goal posts, it's you by arguing that the African versions of the Br'er Rabbit stories are remotely relevant to the question of whether the version of those stories presented on Splash Mountain are racially problematic. Disney based the Song of the South and the versions of the Br'er Rabbit stories depicted in that movie and Splash Mountain on the Joel Chandler Harris Uncle Remus stories. Disney chose to give the ride a vaguely Southern theme and have the characters speak in the southern African-American vernacular largely imposed on the stories by Harris. There is no evidence that the original African versions of the stories were remotely on Disney's radar either when making the film or designing the ride. No one was thinking of the African origins of the stories when they went on the ride (I mean, up until very recently, DL and MK maps still bizarrely referred to Song of the South in the ride description). The only thing that matters was the African-American context of the stories and that was one of slavery followed by state-sponsored terrorism and apartheid that still existed when the movie was released. To pretend otherwise is just ignoring reality.

 

[rteetz]

Yeah people! It's Disney for crying out loud! They couldn't possibly mess this up! (cough cough...Imagination...cough) lol

To be fair the second iteration was worse than the current one.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

I'm not saying anyone is "promoting Joel Chandler Harris or Uncle Remus" but that is the source material for Song of the South and Splash Mountain, not the original versions of the folktales that existed in Africa pre-slavery and continued to be retold and passed down there by people who weren't forced into human bondage. Those versions that existed and continue to exist today are obviously going to be very different as they weren't told and retold by generations of people who were enslaved for centuries by the time Joel Chandler Harris began his Uncle Remus project.

It's moving the goal posts, it's you by arguing that the African versions of the Br'er Rabbit stories are remotely relevant to the question of whether the version of those stories presented on Splash Mountain are racially problematic. Disney based the Song of the South and the versions of the Br'er Rabbit stories depicted in that movie and Splash Mountain on the Joel Chandler Harris Uncle Remus stories. Disney chose to give the ride a vaguely Southern theme and have the characters speak in the southern African-American vernacular largely imposed on the stories by Harris. There is no evidence that the original African versions of the stories were remotely on Disney's radar either when making the film or designing the ride. No one was thinking of the African origins of the stories when they went on the ride (I mean, up until very recently, DL and MK maps still bizarrely referred to Song of the South in the ride description). The only thing that matters was the African-American context of the stories and that was one of slavery followed by state-sponsored terrorism and apartheid that still existed when the movie was released. To pretend otherwise is just ignoring reality.

SoS and Uncle Remus have long been removed by Disney.
I don't even see an animatronic of Uncle Remus in Splash Mountain as far as I can tell, although there are a ton of animatronics so he might be in there somehwere.

To hurt the Bre'r Rabbit brand however and calling that racist does damage to West African and African American culture. You really think that someone could go to schools and offer to tell Bre'r Rabbit stories without some parent complaining that Bre'r Rabbit is racist.

 

[Krandor]

Are you serious? If the parent is sitting there crying because Splash Mountain is being changed, the kid will probably be upset. If the parent explains that it is based on a movie that is from a long time ago and explains racism at an age-appropriate level, the kid will be fine. Hopefully, the parents have already been having conversations with their kids about racism and this is not brand new information to them. It's not to my kids. Not saying I'm a perfect parent, but we have these conversations in my house and my kids are in 4th grade and kindy. My kids are entitled to their feelings and emotions, but I'm not going to model crying over a theme park ride. Be upset, but learn why it's wrong and look forward to the future.

I'm going to go slightly off topi (sorry rteetz).

This is where we really do miss Mister Rogers. That man had a way of explaining complicated subjects like this (and I know he did racism. I know he'd do a show about current things going on. It was a gift that few have but he was amazing at it.

If you have never seen the pool clip here is it. It was from a time when whites didn't want blacks at their pools. The symbolism in powerful even today.

We could use more of that today.

 

[JacknSally]

I'm going to go slightly off topi (sorry rteetz).

This is where we really do miss Mister Rogers. That man had a way of explaining complicated subjects like this (and I know he did racism. I know he'd do a show about current things going on. It was a gift that few have but he was amazing at it.

If you have never seen the pool clip here is it. It was from a time when whites didn't want blacks at their pools. The symbolism in powerful even today.

We could use more of that today.

I love this clip!

I haven't had a chance to watch the Sesame Street special about racism from a few weeks ago, but the Elmo clip I saw was really good. I know it's intended for kids, but I think adults could benefit from it, too.

 

[always]

To hurt the Bre'r Rabbit brand however and calling that racist does damage to West African and African American culture. You really think that someone could go to schools and offer to tell Bre'r Rabbit stories without some parent complaining that Bre'r Rabbit is racist.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Stop trolling and move on the the Community Board. No one is buying what you're selling in here.

 

[chasgoose]

Well the racism of Apu and the Simpson is relevant since Disney owns the Simpson's catalog.
It's a very hurtful character and I suggest everyone watch the Problem with Apu.

You are absolutely right that the character of Apu is incredibly offensive and insulting. I could play oppression olympics and address how Apu's depiction is merely offensive and stereotypical while Song of the South (including Br'er Rabbit) is of a piece with depictions of black people explicitly designed to enforce a white supremacist ideology (even if that wasn't Disney's intent, that's where those stereotypes came from and they knew they were problematic even then) but no one wins at that game.

Frankly, I don't know what should be done about The Simpsons and Apu. I know Hank Azaria, who voices him, will no longer do so, but aside from that it's Disney's call. All I know is that Disney did decide to do something about the problematic aspects of Splash Mountain and I would understand if they did something to address Apu as well, but to suggest that addressing one without addressing the other is wrong reeks of whataboutism. We all know that Splash Mountain is not the only problematic thing in Disney's catalogue or the parks and Disney is not going to suddenly purge all of that at once in one fell swoop. . Disney probably will and should take a hard look at Apu and determine how best to deal with that going forward, but the fact that they addressed Splash Mountain now without simultaneously addressing Apu and other things doesn't make their decision to address Splash Mountain any less correct.

Also, Rteetz feel free to delete this.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Stop trolling and move on the the Community Board. No one is buying what you're selling in here.

You can close your eyes all you want but you can't have an honest conversation on racism if you do that or really address racism.

 

[Krandor]

I love this clip!

I haven't had a chance to watch the Sesame Street special about racism from a few weeks ago, but the Elmo clip I saw was really good. I know it's intended for kids, but I think adults could benefit from it, too.

Just because something is targeted for kids doesn't mean there are not things adults can learn too. Sometimes it is the simple lessons we forget about as we grow up.

 

[Krandor]

You can close your eyes all you want but you can't have an honest conversation on racism if you do that or really address racism.

You are not trying to have an honest conversation though.

 

[JacknSally]

To hurt the Bre'r Rabbit brand however and calling that racist does damage to West African and African American culture. You really think that someone could go to schools and offer to tell Bre'r Rabbit stories without some parent complaining that Bre'r Rabbit is racist.

@Hummingbird addressed your ...concerns earlier. They already said removing this version of Br'er Rabbit doesn't hurt the "brand" because Black families are still passing down the actual story of Br'er Rabbit. @Hummingbird also said your insistence otherwise is insulting. Listen to @Hummingbird. I've quoted the posts below for your convenience.

Are you Black/African American/or West African?

I can assure you these tales are still being passed down orally amongst us. The real tales and fables, NOT the white-washed versions that were stolen and watered down.

It’s very insulting. So much so that was what made me ask/respond to the poster honestly.

And I also wanna note, I don’t take any issue with anyone having loved this ride, being saddened by the change, and even expressing that. Because I myself went through a mourning period when I decided a few years ago not to ride it anymore. My issue has been with the few (very few) that have tried to trivialize my (and apparently a lot of other BPOC) feelings as merely cancel/PC culture in an effort to prove why it should not change. People can miss it and be nostalgic but to see people so angry because something that is harmful is being changed is very disheartening.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

To be fair the second iteration was worse than the current one.

Going on expecting something close to the original ride that you adored, being surprised with that 2nd version, then exiting to the worst replacement for the Imageworks playground they could “imagine” was something.

It was so long ago that 2nd version feels like a weird fever dream. They’ve been priming me since that fateful day to question every refurb they ever do.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

You are absolutely right that the character of Apu is incredibly offensive and insulting. I could play oppression olympics and address how Apu's depiction is merely offensive and stereotypical while Song of the South (including Br'er Rabbit) is of a piece with depictions of black people explicitly designed to enforce a white supremacist ideology (even if that wasn't Disney's intent, that's where those stereotypes came from and they knew they were problematic even then) but no one wins at that game.

Frankly, I don't know what should be done about The Simpsons and Apu. I know Hank Azaria, who voices him, will no longer do so, but aside from that it's Disney's call. All I know is that Disney did decide to do something about the problematic aspects of Splash Mountain and I would understand if they did something to address Apu as well, but to suggest that addressing one without addressing the other is wrong reeks of whataboutism. We all know that Splash Mountain is not the only problematic thing in Disney's catalogue or the parks and Disney is not going to suddenly purge all of that at once in one fell swoop. . Disney probably will and should take a hard look at Apu and determine how best to deal with that going forward, but the fact that they addressed Splash Mountain now without simultaneously addressing Apu and other things doesn't make their decision to address Splash Mountain any less correct.

Also, Rteetz feel free to delete this.

I'm glad you responded to this.

The point that essentially brings up is do we get rid of the offensive aspects of Splash Mountain (SoS, Uncle Remus) while keeping the cute animals and West African cultural heritage of Bre'r Rabbit or do we just get rid of all of it. And you can see how this applies to Apu and Simpsons. Is it enough just to get rid of the offensive/racist material or revoice him with an Indian American actor or do we have to cancel and remove the whole show?

IMO, and I mentioned this more succinctly in a post a while back is you keep Splash Mountain, but you have a West African pavilion at Splash Moutain where West African cast members can explain the history and stories of Bre'r Rabbit as well as a pavilion on slavery and how the Bre'r Rabbit stories were corrupted by the white guy's Uncle Remus novels and SoS versions of it as well as how Bre'r Rabbit was used as a form of rebellion by the slaves against the white slave masters who tried to eradicate all culture/education/and linkage West Africa.

 

[chasgoose]

SoS and Uncle Remus have long been removed by Disney.
I don't even see an animatronic of Uncle Remus in Splash Mountain as far as I can tell, although there are a ton of animatronics so he might be in there somehwere.

To hurt the Bre'r Rabbit brand however and calling that racist does damage to West African and African American culture. You really think that someone could go to schools and offer to tell Bre'r Rabbit stories without some parent complaining that Bre'r Rabbit is racist.

Somehow I don't think you really care about whether children learn about African folklore and this is just concern trolling, but for the sake of argument It's not like Br'er Rabbit is the only West African folktale character out there and its not like most American schools are going to offer curriculums featuring a complete review of regional African folklore. Even so, the specific "Br'er Rabbit brand" offered by Disney is not all Br'er Rabbits, it's the specific Br'er Rabbit that comes from a racist compilation of stories that was turned into a racist movie. In fact accepting as such could offer a good lesson for kids in how oral folklore traditions change based on the circumstances of their storytellers through comparison and how African-American culture was further co-opted by white Americans to further their own racist narratives about black people.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

Going on expecting something close to the original ride that you adored, being surprised with that 2nd version, then exiting to the worst replacement for the Imageworks playground they could “imagine” was something.

It was so long ago that 2nd version feels like a weird fever dream. They’ve been priming me since that fateful day to question every refurb they ever do.

what was the 2nd version. Are we on the 3rd version.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Just because something is targeted for kids doesn't mean there are not things adults can learn too. Sometimes it is the simple lessons we forget about as we grow up.

we watched it with our kids and was a good prompt to have these conversations with them - I'll admit we aren't in the most diversified town and they have been pretty sheltered from it so they were pretty shocked to hear about the pain people feel on a daily basis and how people of color feel constantly. My oldest daughter was in tears as she has a few friends who are people of color (which I'll be honest I wasn't fully aware of) and she couldn't understand why people would view them differently than they would view her.

It's 30 mins of pretty frank discussion - they don't get too heavy but they also don't sugar coat things. I think think it was a good use of time for all of us