Service Dogs (found one rule that looked suspicious, not at any Disney park)

[kdonnel]

The ADA is so broad in definition and treatment of service animals so as to not create an undue burden on the disabled.

To me the idea that someone would need to prove a disability everytime they left their home with their service animal is deeply offensive. Requiring "papers" of the animal is requiring proof of disability of the animals owner.

What has happened is the idiots who want to bring their pets with them everywhere have taken advantage of the law. As I mentioned in my first post, how do you punish those people without creating a burden on the disabled? I don't see how you can.

 

[mrodgers]

curious. what would be acceptable proof? I'm thinking of other things that require a license and there's significant red tape to go through. Many trades and professions require licensing. Driving requires a license. All of these things need to have rules and regulations along with licensing boards associated with them. So...to license a service dog...what would that look like?

It looks like discrimination towards those disabled and needing a service dog which is why it is against regulations to require it.

 

[vanillagirl]

The zoo peeps are wrong.

A vest means nothing.

My daughter has a guide dog from Guiding Eyes for the Blind. Look them up.. A TOP place to get a guide dog in the USA. Her guide dog doesn’t wear a vest. He wears his official harness from the school with their name imprinted in the leather. THEY DO NOT WANT THEIR DOGS IN VESTS. They want ignorant people to be educated. How about that?

To the person who said if a dog can’t wear a vest all day then he isn’t trained enough - how about you be required to wear a rubber raincoat all day at work? Dogs get hot and uncomfortable. The vest can also be restrictive and unsafe. The dogs don’t need their mental space bogged down with worrying about an itchy hot uncomfortable vest when their job is life or death.

My daughter actually had a recent zoo experience. She left her dog at home as a courtesy to the animals and used her white cane. Was followed by a zoo peep then AGGRESSIVELY approached and asked rudely and loudly MAAM WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT STICK?!? She replied IM blind.

It is not the disabled persons duty to educate stupid people. The disabled are so abused and discriminated against still, you people have no idea.

 

[AndreaA]

The ADA is so broad in definition and treatment of service animals so as to not create an undue burden on the disabled.

To me the idea that someone would need to prove a disability everytime they left their home with their service animal is deeply offensive. Requiring "papers" of the animal is requiring proof of disability of the animals owner.

What has happened is the idiots who want to bring their pets with them everywhere have taken advantage of the law. As I mentioned in my first post, how do you punish those people without creating a burden on the disabled? I don't see how you can.

I don’t see how it’s in any way a burden for some sort of paperwork to be required of a service animal. I readily admit that I think the ADA is WAY too loosely written and it is WAY too easy for people to lie and take advantage. That’s exactly why “emotional support” animals are popping up even in places where they shouldn’t be allowed.

I’m also curious as to how gun ownership is literally inscribed as a right in the US Constitution, and yet there are multiple rules/laws around it (and rightfully so), and there is a right to free speech, but there are rules/laws about that (ie hate-speech), etc., but putting any rules on service dogs would somehow violate rights of the disabled… That makes no sense at all.

 

[vanillagirl]

FYI. Guide dogs are free. They are raised and trained on donations. So having a dog doesn’t mean you are flush. Her dog also did come with a small notecard. Guiding Eyes told her keep it with you but you should never be asked for proof and never have to show it as proof. And to call the school and report any business that does ask. Ironically the only place that ever asked was the Disney store in our local mall.

It is very difficult for many disabled to live daily lives and do simple things that sighted people find no issue. We are lucky my daughter is highly educated and has a great job but she still faces ignorance and discrimination every single day.

Did you know it is legal to pay disabled people less than minimum wage? So buying a vest and acquiring the paperwork and training some entitled folks here think is so easy may be a hardship for some. Many blind people actually live in poverty.

This thread is really a snapshot of the ignorance she deals with in her daily life.

 

[GAN]

At no point should you EVER have to prove a service animal has had any training.

If someone refuses to allow you into their place of business as required by the ADA -you have the right to file a lawsuit. The court will require you to establish that you have followed the ADA guidelines, so if you can't PROVE that the service animal was properly trained for your disability you will lose your case. Granted, if you're cheating the system it's unlikely you will file a lawsuit -but that's why the wording is the way it is and hopefully provides an honor system. On the other hand -you'd need a business owner with enough guts to refuse you.

 

[kdonnel]

If someone refuses to allow you into their place of business as required by the ADA -you have the right to file a lawsuit. The court will require you to establish that you have followed the ADA guidelines, so if you can't PROVE that the service animal was properly trained for your disability you will lose your case. Granted, if you're cheating the system it's unlikely you will file a lawsuit -but that's why the wording is the way it is and hopefully provides an honor system. On the other hand -you'd need a business owner with enough guts to refuse you.

The training could be something that took 5 minutes to teach the animal by the owner. There is no professional training requirement.

 

[GAN]

The ADA allows for any person to train their own service dog. There is no certification or registration.

This is true, but teaching a dog to sit doesn't make a dog a service animal.....

 

[GAN]

The training could be something that took 5 minutes to teach the animal by the owner. There is no professional training requirement.

I guess if you found a judge that would buy it ...but not likely. I would think a judge would want to see something a little more substantial than a 5-minute training. It has to be training for whatever disability you have ...which is vague, but that leaves it open to a judge's interpretation

 

[kdonnel]

This is true, but teaching a dog to sit doesn't make a dog a service animal.....

A dog that barks and runs around like crazy when the doorbell rings is a service animal for someone with hearing difficulties. Not a lot of time and effort needed to train but a very valuable service.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I would think that a person who requires a service dog would WANT that dog to be wearing a vest. The vest identifies the dog as a service animal and not an average dog anyone would routinely distract or pet.

FWIW there are people who respect that a service dog is a service dog who is there to do a job, then there are people who do not respect this and in fact identifiers of the dog being a service dog may entice them to come over and want to pet the dog, or to ask the person about such and such. Have you run into people who despite the owner telling them not to pet they still try to? That happens to people with identifiers of the animal being a service animal.

Rarely as it is I do agree with kdonnel on this, part of the reason there is a less rule by rule with these things is by the very nature of someone needing it.

No one with a disability should ever feel embarrassed or ashamed. But if others are not aware of another person's disability, it could lead to unintended misunderstanding that could cause embarrassment for all involved.

That's your opinion of it but it's just an opinion. We don't get the right to decide what others should feel embarrassed about or ashamed on disabilities nor should someone with a disability have to be concerned with the embarrassment of others..it's not about others.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

??? His dog most definitely was a registered dog WITH paperwork. No they aren't required to wear anything, but typically responsible service dog owners DO have something stating that the dog is working. I'm sure that the paperwork is not required because no one ever wants to see it, but it does exist, and most people that actually NEED a service dog, will have these things. I can't imagine that too many people that rely on these dogs don't bother to register their animal. Even if to simply make life easier in the rare case that it IS required to show the papers, like we did at Biltmore. His dog wouldn't have been allowed in without it and rightfully so IMO.

Considering it's against ADA to require paperwork how would it make someone's life easier to register something that which is illegal to require? Perhaps they should have filed a complaint with the Biltmore on that (and maybe they did). If they had issues with the service animal being there because of the nature of the mansion and the grounds that's one thing.

 

[GAN]

A dog that barks and runs around like crazy when the doorbell rings is a service animal for someone with hearing difficulties. Not a lot of time and effort needed to train but a very valuable service.

I agree. Not very useful when visiting a restaurant, as you don't here many doorbells there, though.... LOL. It's definitely an interesting(to me anyway) way to look at it. In that case, technically it's a service animal, so I suppose the rules would apply even if the "training" is totally useless in any other environment.

I think what almost everyone wants is that people use it properly -clearly not everyone does. Which isn't fair to the truly disabled or to the animal involved. As far as I'm concerned, if someone has a dog that helps them in some capacity it's enough for me. But the dog should know how to act in a public and in unusual situations -that indicates enough "training" for me.

 

[Orion Nebula]

A dog that barks and runs around like crazy when the doorbell rings is a service animal for someone with hearing difficulties. Not a lot of time and effort needed to train but a very valuable service.

Ya but the only place in public that it's sole service could be used is in the door bell aisle at Home Depot. =P

 

[GAN]

I'm interested in this discussion from a legal standpoint, so looked a little deeper into it out of curiosity. I came across the attached that sums up quite a bit of the ADA and provides case examples that have been tested in court over the last several years ..if bored it's a good read! In general, the courts seem to rule toward the businesses when it becomes a question of training and need/purpose. Some decisions I was a little surprised with how strict the courts were with the decisions. So.... if you're deaf and you train your animal to answer the door for you, it seems like you wouldn't necessarily be allowed to bring the dog into a restaurant with you -as the dogs purpose doesn't help you eat a meal(general example). So training for a specific purpose is actually very key in their decisions it appears. Interesting info if anyone cares.....

https://adata.org/legal_brief/legal...als-disabilities-under-americans-disabilities

 

[bcla]

I'm interested in this discussion from a legal standpoint, so looked a little deeper into it out of curiosity. I came across the attached that sums up quite a bit of the ADA and provides case examples that have been tested in court over the last several years ..if bored it's a good read! In general, the courts seem to rule toward the businesses when it becomes a question of training and need/purpose. Some decisions I was a little surprised with how strict the courts were with the decisions. So.... if you're deaf and you train your animal to answer the door for you, it seems like you wouldn't necessarily be allowed to bring the dog into a restaurant with you -as the dogs purpose doesn't help you eat a meal(general example). So training for a specific purpose is actually very key in their decisions it appears. Interesting info if anyone cares.....

https://adata.org/legal_brief/legal...als-disabilities-under-americans-disabilities

It really odd as DoJ guidance on disabilities is that a business can't necessarily ask what someone's disability is (even though it may be apparent) but with a service dog they can ask what said service animal is trained to do to determine if it may be excluded when that need is no longer required.

For example, I've met a few people with service dogs where they looked a lot like pets but they were trained to deal with certain situations. One would use its sense of smell to determine if the handler might pass out and then seek help from other people upon the onset, but before actually passing out. Another said that she had seizures where she might be groggy when waking up, but the dog was trained to guide her back home. Still - it would have been very difficult to explain what the dog does without also explaining the disability.

 

[GAN]

Another thing I plucked out of that, was failure to "control" the service animal disqualifies you from protection under the ADA. Basically, you can be asked that the dog leave, the person with disability would be allowed to stay -just not with the dog.

 

[Moliphino]

I agree. Not very useful when visiting a restaurant, as you don't here many doorbells there, though.... LOL. It's definitely an interesting(to me anyway) way to look at it. In that case, technically it's a service animal, so I suppose the rules would apply even if the "training" is totally useless in any other environment.

I think what almost everyone wants is that people use it properly -clearly not everyone does. Which isn't fair to the truly disabled or to the animal involved. As far as I'm concerned, if someone has a dog that helps them in some capacity it's enough for me. But the dog should know how to act in a public and in unusual situations -that indicates enough "training" for me.

And the ADA does allow businesses to ask someone with a service dog to leave if the dog is misbehaving / not under the control of the handler.

 

[AndreaA]

FYI. Guide dogs are free. They are raised and trained on donations. So having a dog doesn’t mean you are flush. Her dog also did come with a small notecard. Guiding Eyes told her keep it with you but you should never be asked for proof and never have to show it as proof. And to call the school and report any business that does ask. Ironically the only place that ever asked was the Disney store in our local mall.

It is very difficult for many disabled to live daily lives and do simple things that sighted people find no issue. We are lucky my daughter is highly educated and has a great job but she still faces ignorance and discrimination every single day.

Did you know it is legal to pay disabled people less than minimum wage? So buying a vest and acquiring the paperwork and training some entitled folks here think is so easy may be a hardship for some. Many blind people actually live in poverty.

This thread is really a snapshot of the ignorance she deals with in her daily life.

Guide dogs may be free, but many/most service animals are not. For example there was a ton of local fundraising to acquire a service dog for a diabetic child in town. In any event, even OWNING a dog isn’t cheap between food, vet, license, etc.. Having some sort of proof of training and identifiable vest/collar/leash/harness would be a drop in the bucket to the lifetime expense of pet ownership.

I’m sorry that your daughter and others suffer from discrimination because of their disability - I have multiple hearing impaired/deaf family members myself. It’s also unfortunate that idiots without disabilities have made it more difficult for those truly in need by taking their untrained and unneeded animals everywhere they please. I was in Homegoods just a couple of weeks ago and there were TWO ”unmarked” dogs in the store, one big pit-bull mix and one smaller Pomeranian-type. The pit-bull wanted to lunge after the other dog. The owner said he was “in training”. Okay, exactly how long are people allowed to say that?

 

[PrincessShmoo]

How does anybody else feel about this?

I agree with this:

Opinion? I think all service animals should be properly trained/tested and have to wear a vest when on duty.