School violence

[tzolkin]

Veering a bit off topic, but I don’t think “having a weapon” should be an automatic expulsion offense. I could definitely see where a kid could have a pocketknife in their pocket or backpack completely by accident and never had any intent to use it.

It just makes no logical sense to me why a kid who actually engages in physical violence against another student would only receive detention or suspension, but a kid accidentally bringing something in his backpack would be expelled without exception.

 

[wenrob]

Veering a bit off topic, but I don’t think “having a weapon” should be an automatic expulsion offense. I could definitely see where a kid could have a pocketknife in their pocket or backpack completely by accident and never had any intent to use it.

It just makes no logical sense to me why a kid who actually engages in physical violence against another student would only receive detention or suspension, but a kid accidentally bringing something in his backpack would be expelled without exception.

I don’t know, the rules are pretty clear and that should be something that’s ingrained. My kids won’t even pack a plastic butter knife in their lunch for fear they’d be accused of bringing a weapon to school. I do come from the days when every boy had a pocket knife in his pocket and I always had a Girl Scout knife in my bag. My DH and I both stopped carrying them when venues started banning them. That’s been decades now. I suppose it will depend on where you’re from and what the norm is.

 

[sam_gordon]

I don’t know, the rules are pretty clear and that should be something that’s ingrained. My kids won’t even pack a plastic butter knife in their lunch for fear they’d be accused of bringing a weapon to school. I do come from the days when every boy had a pocket knife in his pocket and I always had a Girl Scout knife in my bag. My DH and I both stopped carrying them when venues started banning them. That’s been decades now. I suppose it will depend on where you’re from and what the norm is.

I think PP's point is it shouldn't be like that. And I personally agree.

 

[wenrob]

I think PP's point is it shouldn't be like that. And I personally agree.

And I’m saying with rules like that it’s kind of hard to believe a kid would forget they had an actual knife on them. Should they be expelled? I honestly don’t know and am kind of torn on the subject. How does administration decide who innocently forgot and who had intent? It’s not like a kid who does have intent to harm someone is going to cop to it. They’re going to say it was a joke or they forgot or whatever it takes to get themselves out of trouble. Does administration let it slide? What if that kid comes back and actually hurts someone? I can see why “no tolerance” is in place even if I don’t 100% agree with it. This is coming from a mom who’s kid lost recess in kindergarten for a week for bringing a pencil onto the playground. I thought it was over the top but rules are rules. I know my kid didn’t intend to harm anyone but it’s kind of hard to make those kinds of calls when you’re dealing with hundreds of kids on a daily basis.

 

[DisneyOma]

Your son did the right thing and told you. What a tremendous accomplishment for him to confide in you. Keep up the good work!!

AND keep on the principal. This can not be kept from any parents/guardians of children in the school building. In my district, these kids are probably expelled temporarily if not permanently!

Only a certain amount of information can be released due to the age of the students involved.

This is what I expect. Whatever happens, if anything will be done quietly and privately, which is what I think any one would want if it was their kid. I try to think of it from that prespective as well. I want my kid to be safe. But if my kid did something stupid like that, I wouldn't want it spread around the county to everyone. I'd want to know and i'd expect punishment, but I'd hope not to be shamed for it.

Seriously? Not be shamed for it? Parents who don't want their kids to feel shame can end up with kids who do whatever they want, whenever they want, because the parents let them get away with feeling okay about it all. My guess is that the parents don't want to be outed as the ones with a kid who thought it was cool to bring a knife to school.

When my kids stepped out of line in public, they got reprimanded in public. If they acted up in school, I went to the school and we (teacher/admin/me) figured out what the punishment should be. When my older daughter and a friend messed up a table in the school library, I hauled her back to the library, made her apologize and clean the table. When she kicked a kid in the nuts at recess, she had to sit in the principal's office and miss art class, and then I made her write an apology letter to the kid, and deliver it in person. There were no more issues with her behavior after that, and her younger sister had none. If they had brought a knife to school, they would have had backpacks and pockets emptied every morning before school, at home and in the front office if necessary, for months, maybe even years. We'd talk about it, constantly, and find the root of the concern, but my kids would have known weapons were not cool (no guns on my property) and there'd have been a lot of discussion about why the knife was brought in.

 

[MrsPete]

So how to you talk to your elementary aged kids about stuff like this?

Like other big, difficult topics, you talk about it in a series of short, repeated conversations. It's not a "one and done" thing -- you should talk about it in simple terms with small children, in more complex detail with teens. It will come up naturally as you hear news stories, etc. Talk frequently about HOW TO HANDLE these situations: tell an adult if you know something, etc.
You should aim for a mid-point: don't blow it off or make it a joke, but you also shouldn't allow it to become a constant fear for your child.

I agree with @Southernmiss. Sit your son down and tell him how proud you are of him for doing the right thing by telling you.

Yes, talking to your kids is rarely the wrong choice -- and if you talk to them, they'll talk to you.

IMO, the only thing that should be told other parents is "A child brought a knife to school" *IF* even that. And I disagree with expulsion for bringing a pocket knife. I get it's probably the policy and probably some kind of "no exception policy". I still disagree with it.

That being said, I can support the school investigating to see if Kid 3 *DID* want the knife to hurt someone. But I don't think I'm (as an uninvolved parent) entitled to find out the results of their investigation.

Something that doesn't ring true about this story: If Kid 3 really did want a knife "to hurt someone", why go through the complicated steps of passing it from kid to kid? Pretty much every kid has access to a steak knife in the drawer at home. Most kids could probably find a pocket knife at home too.
Makes me think that something "blew up" as the story was passed from person to person.

And I’m saying with rules like that it’s kind of hard to believe a kid would forget they had an actual knife on them.

I can see that a kid might be carrying a pocket knife in his pocket at home, then wear the same pants to school the next day -- and if I did that, I'd be so quiet and good all day and never let anyone know I'd brought it by accident. But why would any kid ever have a pocket knife in his school backpack?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Something that doesn't ring true about this story: If Kid 3 really did want a knife "to hurt someone", why go through the complicated steps of passing it from kid to kid? Pretty much every kid has access to a steak knife in the drawer at home. Most kids could probably find a pocket knife at home too.
Makes me think that something "blew up" as the story was passed from person to person.

At least from what the OP's son said they were speaking to Kid 1 (they sat next to each other on the bus) who is the one who said they were the one to give it to Kid 2 to give to kid 3 so kid 3 could hurt someone. As far as complicated steps? I mean depends on how it went down.

Because we don't know the conversation it's hard to know but could have easily been like kid 1 saying they have a knife and because they couldn't see kid 3 (not in the same class or something like that) but kid 2 could so it was passed from person to person.

Makes sense to me.

Not everyone has a pocket knife at home.

 

[wenrob]

At least from what the OP's son said they were speaking to Kid 1 (they sat next to each other on the bus) who is the one who said they were the one to give it to Kid 2 to give to kid 3 so kid 3 could hurt someone. As far as complicated steps? I mean depends on how it went down.

Because we don't know the conversation it's hard to know but could have easily been like kid 1 saying they have a knife and because they couldn't see kid 3 (not in the same class or something like that) but kid 2 could so it was passed from person to person.

Makes sense to me.

Not everyone has a pocket knife at home.

I thought it was Kid 3 on the bus. But anyway, yeah, that’s how kids do especially at that age. The plan probably made sense to them even if it doesn’t make sense to us.

 

[tzolkin]

And I’m saying with rules like that it’s kind of hard to believe a kid would forget they had an actual knife on them.

I think it’s pretty easy for a kid to forget. When my kids were little they misplaced things all the time. Even adults misplace or forget things.

When my son was in BoyScouts (maybe age 7) they were given knives and told to practice whittling so they all carried knives often. It would have been very easy for any of those kids to pick up a pair of previously worn jeans that had the knife in the pocket and toss them on in a morning rush for school. I’m doing laundry this morning and a knife just fell out of a pocket from the hamper. This happens all the time.

I think the bolded part perhaps makes the difference. You’re thinking of it as a weapon, in which case, yes, it would be more difficult to forget. If I carrried a gun certainly I would be very aware of where it was at all times. But if I casually carry a pocketknife, I may forget whether it’s in my purse or my jeans or my coat. I know my husband has forgotten that he has one on him several times. Thank God he wasn’t immediately arrested with a “no tolerance/no exceptions” policy.

But why would any kid ever have a pocket knife in his school backpack?

Perhaps it’s his only backpack and not used exclusively for school. My kids will use their backpacks if we go hiking or on a trip. I’ve even used their backpacks myself when traveling. Some backpacks have loads of little compartments within compartments and an item or two may be overlooked when emptying it out.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I thought it was Kid 3 on the bus

This is where I got the info from "But on the bus ride home Kid 1 who shares a bus seat with my kid, told him that she brought the knife to give to kid 3 so kid 3 could hurt someone."

But anyway, yeah, that’s how kids do especially at that age. The plan probably made sense to them even if it doesn’t make sense to us.

Yeah I was trying to think back to my schooling days how it probably went down. I don't know how the interactions are with Kid 1,2 and 3 as far as how close they are but I could totally see this passing along for one reason or another. What seems complicated to us probably didn't seem very complicated to them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But if I casually carry a pocketknife, I may forget whether it’s in my purse or my jeans or my coat.

A 10 or 11 year old is probably going to feel the weight of an object in their pocket. Even so let's say you're so used to the weight of it because you carry it all the time you aren't doing that every day because you're in school where you know you're not supposed to bring that in there. Innocently forgetting it is probably going to be less likely if 5 days out of the week you're in school.

Some backpacks have loads of little compartments within compartments and an item or two may be overlooked when emptying it out.

I think that was the point of talking about the rules. If you know the rules is no knives on school property you would also know not to put it in your backpack you take to school. It's a conscious decision to put it in your backpack that will be taken to school.

 

[wenrob]

I think it’s pretty easy for a kid to forget. When my kids were little they misplaced things all the time. Even adults misplace or forget things.

When my son was in BoyScouts (maybe age 7) they were given knives and told to practice whittling so they all carried knives often. It would have been very easy for any of those kids to pick up a pair of previously worn jeans that had the knife in the pocket and toss them on in a morning rush for school. I’m doing laundry this morning and a knife just fell out of a pocket from the hamper. This happens all the time.

I think the bolded part perhaps makes the difference. You’re thinking of it as a weapon, in which case, yes, it would be more difficult to forget. If I carrried a gun certainly I would be very aware of where it was at all times. But if I casually carry a pocketknife, I may forget whether it’s in my purse or my jeans or my coat. I know my husband has forgotten that he has one on him several times. Thank God he wasn’t immediately arrested with a “no tolerance/no exceptions” policy.


Perhaps it’s his only backpack and not used exclusively for school. My kids will use their backpacks if we go hiking or on a trip. I’ve even used their backpacks myself when traveling. Some backpacks have loads of little compartments within compartments and an item or two may be overlooked when emptying it out.

The words “actual knife” were used in relation to a plastic butter knife. I think of pocket knives as tools. I didn’t know a boy growing up who didn’t have one and as I said in a previous post I had the Girl Scout version myself. That said, this isn’t the ‘70s and ‘80s anymore and no tolerance policies in public schools have been in place for decades. The SCHOOL classifies them as weapons and at the end of the day that’s all that matters. I didn’t make the policy and I’ve stated twice I’m not 100% sure I’m onboard with it. And again, how does administration decide? The most streamlined way is not to allow it at all.

As far as forgetting, it’s going to depend on how common it is in your area to carry one. My kids have Leathermans, we don’t allow them to carry them because it could get them into trouble and it's not a common thing around here.

 

[DisneyHardin]

OP - that's great that your son opened up and told you all about the situation.

I work at an elementary school and we have had similar situations before. Our policy is that the student's involved get a several day suspension - no one is really ever "expelled" from a public school because public schools have to provide an education, so the school would have to find an alternate way for that child to be educated. I work in a huge district, so we do have some alternative schools where kids can be sent, but never for a single incident like bringing a pocket knife to school. There would have to have been lots of incidents and lots of documentation before a child is recommended for alternative school. Also, at our school, the parents of the entire school would not be notified of the incident unless it caused the school to go on lockdown.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

no one is really ever "expelled" from a public school because public schools have to provide an education, so the school would have to find an alternate way for that child to be educated.

That does not appear to be how it works in my state.

Here's the state law: "A pupil who has been suspended or expelled from school by any school district may be refused admission to school in any other school district, regardless of residency, until such time as the period of suspension or expulsion has expired."

Specifically for the weapon aspect: "Each board of education shall prepare an annual report on a form prescribed and furnished by the state board of education that contains a description of the circumstances surrounding any expulsions imposed on pupils pursuant to a policy adopted under subsection (a), including the name of the school or schools concerned, the number of pupils expelled, and the type of weapons concerned. The report shall be submitted to the state board of education in such manner as the state board shall require and at a time to be determined and specified by the state board."

I have found no such law in my state that says upon expulsion a school is required to find an alternative place of learning. In fact I would think that would seem counterintuitive especially if the student was expelled for the safety of the students.

There are laws regarding a hearing that must be held if expulsion is the route that is going to be taken.

 

[wenrob]

That does not appear to be how it works in my state.

Here's the state law: "A pupil who has been suspended or expelled from school by any school district may be refused admission to school in any other school district, regardless of residency, until such time as the period of suspension or expulsion has expired."

Specifically for the weapon aspect: "Each board of education shall prepare an annual report on a form prescribed and furnished by the state board of education that contains a description of the circumstances surrounding any expulsions imposed on pupils pursuant to a policy adopted under subsection (a), including the name of the school or schools concerned, the number of pupils expelled, and the type of weapons concerned. The report shall be submitted to the state board of education in such manner as the state board shall require and at a time to be determined and specified by the state board."

I have found no such law in my state that says upon expulsion a school is required to find an alternative place of learning. In fact I would think that would seem counterintuitive especially if the student was expelled for the safety of the students.

There are laws regarding a hearing that must be held if expulsion is the route that is going to be taken.

Kids are due an education even if they are buttheads. There are alternative schools specifically for repeat offenders and if that doesn’t work they’ll be put into the system where they’ll still receive an education.

You’re right at KS/MO line right? Both have a process for alternative schooling.
https://safesupportivelearning.ed.gov/school-discipline-laws-regulations-state

 

[Princessclab]

No one will be told anything, not even the OP. There will be a general “there was a situation and we’re handling it” type of announcement. Kid 1 and Kid 3’s parents will be called in and the parents of the child that was threatened but most likely won’t be told by who if they don’t find the threat credible. They don’t “out” kids.

OP, good for your son! You have clear evidence you’re doing something right, you should be proud.

Not necessarily true; they are very transparent here when kids bring knives to school. Even if it is just in their backpack etc.
A letter is sent out to parents and often makes the news. The police are always notified; that is the SOP.
All the kids know who it is.
It sends a message of no tolerance and the onus of due diligence by the parents.

 

[SandyinMonterey]

Received an email yesterday from High School principal. There was a student making threats against another student and there was also racist and anti-semitic comments posted by the student. The student was apprehended prior to school and was found to be in possession of a knife. The student is facing criminal charges. Thankfully this was all picked up by someone (a parent or student) and the proper people were notified. Very scary. My daughter is not on social media and was unaware of this. Both my husband and I have made it very clear to my daughter that she can come to us for anything at any time, no matter what. That no one has "got her back" more than her parents. My daughter knows....if you see/hear something...say something. Kuddos to your child.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Kids are due an education even if they are buttheads. There are alternative schools specifically for repeat offenders and if that doesn’t work they’ll be put into the system where they’ll still receive an education.

You’re right at KS/MO line right? Both have a process for alternative schooling.
https://safesupportivelearning.ed.gov/school-discipline-laws-regulations-state

What you posted doesn't say by law they have to find alternative schooling which is the comment I was referring to, of course there are alternative schools though within KS that's def. true. What you posted just sets up that it's within the law that they may create alternative schools. I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong but I found no information that upon expulsion a school is legally required to find alternative learning. I did find that no school legally has to take you once you've been expelled or suspended regardless if your residency qualifies you to attend there.

In the school district my house is in they have 4 alternative schools 1 under the county's corrections department, 1 under the juvenile detention center, 1 for those who are recommended under a high school counselor and 1 for suspended or expelled students.

However, the school district I grew up under has 1 alternative school and it's just for high school and it's for all students.


Here's a document regarding regulation by state: https://ecs.secure.force.com/mbdata/MBQuest2RTanw?rep=SD1805

Granted the document is from 2018 but it was a quick easy one. State law may have changed since then but assuming it's still accurate for KS under the question: "Are there alternative schooling options available for students who are suspended or expelled?" for KS the answer listed under that document is "Not specified in statute or regulation. Gifted children are not required to be provided with special education or related services upon suspension or expulsion."

For the OP they are in MO that document reflects: "Yes. School districts must pay toward per pupil costs for alternative education programs."

School districts across KS def. have alternative schools and options available but that varies where you live and at least from what I could find the state does not regulate that a school must find alternative. From the educational tradition of KS there's a preference towards allowing school districts to make their own decisions. There's laws like compulsory attendance and such so I'm not saying there isn't other laws that are required by the state just that in general schools are given a lot more decision making. This has for sure played out quite a lot during the pandemic.

 

[DisneyHardin]

That does not appear to be how it works in my state.

Here's the state law: "A pupil who has been suspended or expelled from school by any school district may be refused admission to school in any other school district, regardless of residency, until such time as the period of suspension or expulsion has expired."

Specifically for the weapon aspect: "Each board of education shall prepare an annual report on a form prescribed and furnished by the state board of education that contains a description of the circumstances surrounding any expulsions imposed on pupils pursuant to a policy adopted under subsection (a), including the name of the school or schools concerned, the number of pupils expelled, and the type of weapons concerned. The report shall be submitted to the state board of education in such manner as the state board shall require and at a time to be determined and specified by the state board."

I have found no such law in my state that says upon expulsion a school is required to find an alternative place of learning. In fact I would think that would seem counterintuitive especially if the student was expelled for the safety of the students.

There are laws regarding a hearing that must be held if expulsion is the route that is going to be taken.

That's crazy that the district doesn't have to continue to educate students who are expelled. So what happens to expelled students? They just sit at home the rest of the school year and then re-enroll the next year? Do they have to repeat the grade? I thought Kentucky was one of the bottom states in education, but at least we don't just kick kids out of school with no back up plan for their education.

 

[Colleen27]

Veering a bit off topic, but I don’t think “having a weapon” should be an automatic expulsion offense. I could definitely see where a kid could have a pocketknife in their pocket or backpack completely by accident and never had any intent to use it.

It just makes no logical sense to me why a kid who actually engages in physical violence against another student would only receive detention or suspension, but a kid accidentally bringing something in his backpack would be expelled without exception.

I agree. It swung hard that way after Columbine - in the district I came up in, one student was expelled over a forgotten Swiss Army knife and another was suspended because a parking lot patrol noticed a paring knife on the back seat of her car. Then, around me at least, it swung back toward more reasonable case-by-case policies for a while. But after Oxford, which is <50 miles from me, everyone is on edge and taking things more seriously again.

I don’t know, the rules are pretty clear and that should be something that’s ingrained. My kids won’t even pack a plastic butter knife in their lunch for fear they’d be accused of bringing a weapon to school. I do come from the days when every boy had a pocket knife in his pocket and I always had a Girl Scout knife in my bag. My DH and I both stopped carrying them when venues started banning them. That’s been decades now. I suppose it will depend on where you’re from and what the norm is.

I think that last line is a lot of it. And I don't think, in places where knives are more likely to be tools than weapons, it would be unreasonable to treat children a little more like adults - DH is prohibited from buying nice pocket knives any more because he carries one on his hip daily and the list of places where he's had them confiscated/thrown out is so long it has become a family joke. But no one is calling police every time a man carries a Leatherman into a museum, airport, or concert. But we're expelling kids and getting the police involved if they forget to take their Boy Scout knife out of a backpack or jacket that is used for both school and camping/hiking/hunting. I'm not sure that kind of policy makes anyone safer (other than the school district from lawsuits, maybe).