Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (December added 1/16/2020)

[kboo]

I think everyone just has different preferences. We are technically an older millennial couple and we have young kids. We love the design of RIV and think it's well suited to our family. I much prefer the style and design of the rooms to BWV, even though we own at BWV as well and love it due to the location. There's a character breakfast that we have booked for upcoming stays, and a splash pad where we're planning to spend time with the kids. There's a lot to like there... just not everyone may like it. There are those who say that VGF is not kid-friendly and don't like it. But we also own VGF and absolutely love it.

I feel like I could have written that. We love VGF - and it's really our kids that love it the most!

 

[TexasChick123]

I think everyone just has different preferences. We are technically an older millennial couple and we have young kids. We love the design of RIV and think it's well suited to our family. I much prefer the style and design of the rooms to BWV, even though we own at BWV as well and love it due to the location. There's a character breakfast that we have booked for upcoming stays, and a splash pad where we're planning to spend time with the kids. There's a lot to like there... just not everyone may like it. There are those who say that VGF is not kid-friendly and don't like it. But we also own VGF and absolutely love it.

I feel like I could have written that. We love VGF - and it's really our kids that love it the most!

Our family also loves VGF despite ppl saying it isn’t for kids. My young kids love it. RIV reminds us a lot of VGF, and we’re looking forward to staying there.

 

[Soap_1984]

I think it also depends what kind of family you are or trip you are doing. We go to the parks every day and don't spend nearly as much time around the resort. Vgf is our favourite as well partly because of that; and if you have a rest day there is plenty for kids to do.

 

[kboo]

I think it also depends what kind of family you are or trip you are doing. We go to the parks every day and don't spend nearly as much time around the resort. Vgf is our favourite as well partly because of that; and if you have a rest day there is plenty for kids to do.

The feature pool at GF is very close to the splash area and - most importantly - the villas. Even though we go to the parks every day (still), we will often take a pool afternoon and it's so convenient. The other resort activities are also quite close to the villas there - I like that even though the building is set off a bit, many of the activities are in the middle, so you have some quiet and privacy, but it's still very convenient and there's lots to do right out the door.

I'm really looking forward to the pools at Riviera too. Although I can see our kids liking SAB (BCV) more as they get older, I feel like DVC is an afterthought (or worse yet, like the hidden relative) since you have to walk through the main lobby to get there.

 

[Jiminy76]

I'm really looking forward to the pools at Riviera too. Although I can see our kids liking SAB (BCV) more as they get older, I feel like DVC is an afterthought (or worse yet, like the hidden relative) since you have to walk through the main lobby to get there.

You hit on a very good point and a point that played a part in my decision to purchase at RIV. The fact that it is all contained in a single building and it is not a far flung separate building in a sprawling resort like some of the other DVC resorts are was a big factor in my decision. Don't get me wrong the large sprawling resorts do have their own character and I do enjoy these resorts as well from time to time. But my wife and I are in our mid 40's and the resort is interesting to us and our 11 year old daughter now due to the quick access to HS and IG via the Skyliner. But in the future when my wife and I are older we will really appreciate the smaller compact resort and lack of multiple buildings that most DVC resorts at the moment have. It checked both boxes as being practical now and in the future.

Not to say that I did not stress over the restrictions. I was counting down the 10 days we had to back out and really thinking it over, but in the end I decided to stick with it. We will see what the future holds in regards to resale and hopefully my family and I will get many years of memories out of this purchase. If I get 25 years of use and memories out of it and it is worth $0 a point at this time I will be content as I will have gotten out of it what I was hoping for and will pass on to my daughter if she wants it or put it on the market to sell for what ever I can get out of it at that point.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm really looking forward to the pools at Riviera too. Although I can see our kids liking SAB (BCV) more as they get older, I feel like DVC is an afterthought (or worse yet, like the hidden relative) since you have to walk through the main lobby to get there.

You hit on a very good point and a point that played a part in my decision to purchase at RIV. The fact that it is all contained in a single building and it is not a far flung separate building in a sprawling resort like some of the other DVC resorts are was a big factor in my decision. Don't get me wrong the large sprawling resorts do have their own character and I do enjoy these resorts as well from time to time. But my wife and I are in our mid 40's and the resort is interesting to us and our 11 year old daughter now due to the quick access to HS and IG via the Skyliner. But in the future when my wife and I are older we will really appreciate the smaller compact resort and lack of multiple buildings that most DVC resorts at the moment have. It checked both boxes as being practical now and in the future.

Not to say that I did not stress over the restrictions. I was counting down the 10 days we had to back out and really thinking it over, but in the end I decided to stick with it. We will see what the future holds in regards to resale and hopefully my family and I will get many years of memories out of this purchase. If I get 25 years of use and memories out of it and it is worth $0 a point at this time I will be content as I will have gotten out of it what I was hoping for and will pass on to my daughter if she wants it or put it on the market to sell for what ever I can get out of it at that point.

This hits home why DVC suits everyone as it offers so many different options and with all being so different, there truly is a resort for everyone,

I am excited to try it and call it one of my homes. My kids are excited to become official owners and staying at such a beautiful resort,

 

[CarolynFH]

If I get 25 years of use and memories out of it and it is worth $0 a point at this time I will be content as I will have gotten out of it what I was hoping for and will pass on to my daughter if she wants it or put it on the market to sell for what ever I can get out of it at that point.

That's how we feel about BWV. We've gotten 22 years of use and memories already and are still going. When the time comes that we can't use it anymore, if it's worth $0 on the resale market we'll still feel we got our money's worth.

 

[CarolMN]

That's how we feel about BWV. We've gotten 22 years of use and memories already and are still going. When the time comes that we can't use it anymore, if it's worth $0 on the resale market we'll still feel we got our money's worth.

Same here. Feel lucky to have purchased in 1999.

 

[sethschroeder]

What happens to resale prices when supply of points far out numbers demand for large parts of the year? What happens if a commercial renter decides to cash out and to dump a ton of points on the resale market because their business model is no longer sustainable?

Except it will only become unsustainable when rentals $ > direct $. If anything rental prices could see a increase based on steady room increases from Disney. Rented a 1BR for the same price as AOA suite this September.

Honestly, if I were looking to purchase DVC, I would wait for reflections.

I think people are going to be more underwhelmed than RIV. At least RIV is a 5-10 min Skyliner from Epcot whole REF will be what 20-25 mins from MK (and terribly located for other parks).

Reflections is that it's going to be in a proven area and nextdoor to WL and its associated DVC's, which also have a strong, proven track record.

How is it more proven? Has Caribbean Beach done bad historically (although moderate)? I think the bigger strike is REF will be neighbors with a campground.... Not a moderate.... A campground.....

How many more boats can you make space for? Will REF share boats and busses with the campground or WL/CC? It will be very interesting.

Attendance at Disney’s US parks dropped 3% in their third quarter.

And overall spending is up meaning those that are coming are willing to open up their pockets. So you lose more guests who stay offsite and add guests who stay onsite

 

[Brianstl]

Except it will only become unsustainable when rentals $ > direct $. If anything rental prices could see a increase based on steady room increases from Disney. Rented a 1BR for the same price as AOA suite this September.



I think people are going to be more underwhelmed than RIV. At least RIV is a 5-10 min Skyliner from Epcot whole REF will be what 20-25 mins from MK (and terribly located for other parks).



How is it more proven? Has Caribbean Beach done bad historically (although moderate)? I think the bigger strike is REF will be neighbors with a campground.... Not a moderate.... A campground.....

How many more boats can you make space for? Will REF share boats and busses with the campground or WL/CC? It will be very interesting.



And overall spending is up meaning those that are coming are willing to open up their pockets. So you lose more guests who stay offsite and add guests who stay onsite

Spending per person was up but overall revenue was down at US parks and resorts in the third quarter.

 

[sethschroeder]

Spending per person was up but overall revenue was down at US parks and resorts in the third quarter.

I am not trying to elitist but DVC can care less about the family staying at LaQuinta down the road that decides not to go.

I am just trying to outline that what Disney cares about does not align with the DVC group.

I could be over simplifying this all though likely.

 

[RivShore]

...And overall spending is up meaning those that are coming are willing to open up their pockets. So you lose more guests who stay offsite and add guests who stay onsite

And DIS confirmed occupancy is growing. As I mentioned in an earlier post (from the Q3 report) - "room occupancy was actually up two percentage points to 88%. So far this quarter (q4), domestic resort reservations are pacing up 4% compared to prior year, while booked rates are up 3%".

So far, their plan of keeping more people on site, spending more is working. Will be interesting to see what they have to say about it in the next earnings release.

 

[Marionnette]

And DIS confirmed occupancy is growing. As I mentioned in an earlier post (from the Q3 report) - "room occupancy was actually up two percentage points to 88%. So far this quarter (q4), domestic resort reservations are pacing up 4% compared to prior year, while booked rates are up 3%".

So far, their plan of keeping more people on site, spending more is working. Will be interesting to see what they have to say about it in the next earnings release.

From a the Q3 earnings report (bolding mine):

The decrease in operating income at our domestic parks and resorts was due to higher costs and lower volume, partially offset by increased average per capita guest spending. Higher costs were driven by labor and other cost inflation and expenses associated with Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge, which opened at Disneyland Resort on May 31. The decrease in volume was due to lower attendance, partially offset by higher occupied room nights. Guest spending growth was primarily due to higher average ticket prices and increased food, beverage and merchandise spending.​

​

So, guests are not spending more because of they increased the volume of food, merchandise or park admission purchased but because Disney raised their prices to a level that offset the decrease in volume.

 

[Brian Noble]

This has been an explicit strategy of TWDC leadership for some time. I can't find the earnings call transcript now, but a year or three ago Iger said that they would be okay if price increases thinned crowds a little bit to provide a better experience for the guests who were coming, but still maintained good margins over the fixed costs of operating the parks.

 

[RivShore]

From a the Q3 earnings report (bolding mine):

The decrease in operating income at our domestic parks and resorts was due to higher costs and lower volume, partially offset by increased average per capita guest spending. Higher costs were driven by labor and other cost inflation and expenses associated with Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge, which opened at Disneyland Resort on May 31. The decrease in volume was due to lower attendance, partially offset by higher occupied room nights. Guest spending growth was primarily due to higher average ticket prices and increased food, beverage and merchandise spending.​

​

So, guests are not spending more because of they increased the volume of food, merchandise or park admission purchased but because Disney raised their prices to a level that offset the decrease in volume.

True! Their evil plan is working! And I'm sure the 2% occupancy increase also helped feed that increase in guest spending since you had more people that were on site (and spending) 24/7 rather than at an off site hotel and losing some meal and other revenue opportunities.

 

[Toonses]

And I have no interest in Reflections. It’s really a matter of personal preference. I do not like the FW/WL area as they feel cheap and motel(ish) to me, but that is my opinion and not a fact. I’m just as confused as to why anyone would ever own at any WL/FW area properties as you are to why anyone would own at Riviera. That’s why I think comments like this don’t help anyone out. We all have different preferences and opinions on what we like and don’t like. Just because I do or don’t like something doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong. It’s all a matter of opinion. Waiting for Reflections probably doesn’t make sense if someone likes Riviera. They’re totally different properties. Most, but not all, who like one will have little to no interest in the other because they are so vastly different.

I'm not confused as to why ppl would want to own Riv - like I said, it has some nice features. WL was brought up to point out the market perception of that area on a high-end lodge since it already has two successful DVC properties and a successful regular hotel property. I was simply stating some points I find concerning when looking in terms of retaining value. If that isn't a factor for you, then, as I said in my previous post, there's no reason at all not purchase there if you like it. In fact, I believe my last paragraph was largely dedicated to saying that if you like it, you should buy it.

I'll also be the first to say, I don't have a future telling crystal ball to know which way the winds will blow with Riv in terms of value retention. I could honestly see this property going either way on that particular point and if value retention isn't a factor for anyone, then my question marks on this property are not relevant and should be ignored.

 

[Toonses]

You are likely wrong. This has happened with other new DVC resorts. Keep in mind that Disney controls ~70% of units there right now, having declared roughly 30%. So Disney offers discount and inventories to things like card points with that 70%. The incidence of this will go down as more declarations occur.

I don't think it's a sign of anything save that Disney wants to get butts in rooms they own. This isn't all that dissimilar to how for a while, you could book a Saratoga package via Costco.

Fair point. It just seems like there's been some indicators of soft sales, and this seemed to add to that argument, especially since the dates I was looking at were a year out. If this is standard, though, then it can be ignored.

 

[Toonses]

While I agree with many of your points on riviera I am not sure reflections is going to be the answer. If anything I would expect that it will be priced even higher and perhaps with even more limitations.

I could see this as well. I think it depends on how everything shakes out with Riv. If the sales pop after opening, then I have no doubt that Ref will be at LEAST as restrictive as Riv on resales, if not more so, as you said. I can honestly see the wind blowing either way on this property. It will definitely be interesting to watch, I think.

 

[Toonses]

How is it more proven? Has Caribbean Beach done bad historically (although moderate)? I think the bigger strike is REF will be neighbors with a campground.... Not a moderate.... A campground.....

How many more boats can you make space for? Will REF share boats and busses with the campground or WL/CC? It will be very interesting.

My perception of CB is that it doesn't have the same sort of following that other resorts do. Yes ppl seem to like the resort, but I think most ppl actually prefer others. I hear a lot more ppl raving about POFQ and CS (especially now that it has GD), than I ever have about CB. When you compare to WL/CC/BR just about everyone who stays there LOVES this resort. Like REALLY LOVES this resort, which I don't see happening with CB.

Now maybe my perception is incorrect - this is all anecdotal on my part. Also, CB is a moderate, not a deluxe brand, whereas Ref has a the Deluxe of WL/CC/BR to compare against. Also, while Ft. W has a campground it also has RV pads and its version of 'cabins' which I do believe need an upgrade, but that's another discussion.

The RV pads in particular are worth paying attention to, because there's a lot of people that definitely have the income to purchase DVC that like to travel in an RV. I personally know several folks that are both RV owners and DVC owners. An RV owner often wants the sense of wilderness they would get from camping, but want some modern conveniences like a bed, kitchen and a toilette they don't have to walk to in the middle of the night. The point here being that there's already a significant chunk of RV owners that def have the income/desire to purchase DVC, and absolutely would do so if it was attached to a wilderness property like Ft. W which is really beautiful.

Transportation is a very good point, and not one I had yet considered, especially since Ref is supposed to have 900 rooms. I looked up room totals and WL, BR and CC combined are 1,083. Ft W is at 409 so when added to Ref, it will be a total of 1309.

Assuming a shared bus line, which I def agree is the likeliest thing, the comps are as follows (numbers were all sourced from Touringplans):
Reflections + Ft. Wilderness = 1309
Poly + PV 1,227
BC, BCV and YC altogether are 1,495
AKL Jambo and Kidani total 1,430
Dolphin 1,500 Swan 758 for a total of 2,258
SS 1,250 (an extremely sprawling resort)
POR 2,048 POFQ 1,008 for a total of 3,056 - also sprawling when taken together
CS 2,384 (sprawling)
CB 1,536 (sprawling)
Pop 2,880
AoA 1,984
All Star Resorts range between 1,604 at Music to 1,920 at other two for a total of 5,444.

Given the numbers, especially when looking at other deluxe resorts like the Poly, BC/YC and AKL properties, I don't think that bus service is going to be any bigger issue for ppl than it already is on the rest of property, especially since Ref shouldn't be sprawling the way the mods are. Yes you can argue that Poly is a Monorail property, but that's only relevant to getting to MK, and the boats they use are significantly smaller as a result.

If recall correctly, the boats used for WL and Ft W are like the ones they use on that whole Boardwalk area which serves YC/BC, BW/BWV, and Swan and Dolphin. Now that line isn't a good comparison for transportation to EPCOT, since a lot of people walk from those resorts, but it's a very relevant comparison when looking at boat service to the Studios from those resorts. That line is handling three major resorts which would add up to a total of 4,663 rooms. In comparison, the 1,309 of Ref/Ft. W plus the WL/BR/CC at 1,083 would be a total of 2,392 which is about half of what the Studios line is serving.

In short, Disney should be capable of handling those numbers on both boat at bus at no worse level than they already do throughout the rest of property. Not saying transportation couldn't be better, but when it's no worse than anywhere else, the factor of transportation ceases to become a factor on the desireability of the property.

That was kind of fun to look at those room numbers - makes for an interesting resort comparison in general, and def interesting points to look into.

 

[skier_pete]

So a quick observation on Riviera from a few rides on the Skyliner.

Beautiful looking resort, but now that it's built, I didn't realize HOW CLOSE it is to CBR. Like the one neighborhood (aruba?) is right next door, and even the Port Royal seems like a less than 5 minute walk from the Riviera. It's still probably the biggest issue I have with the resort - being right on top of a moderate. I mean, it's closer than Boardwalk and Beach Club are -but at least those are both deluxes. And especially considering that side has to be all "preferred" view I can't think I would prefer looking out there at CBR.

That said, owners are going to love the Skyliner. So convenient to Epcot and even I would guess < 10 minutes to DHS. They were purposefully not loading all the cars at the CBR station so that Riviera would get some empties coming through - so there's that as well.